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A few questions...
1. If a DT successfully ties a clue to a mafia member / RCs a mafia member, will that DT be told what family the mafia member belongs to? If the answer is yes, will millers appear to be from a random mafia family to DTs?
2. As far as I can see, it's a no-brainer for the mafia families (who don't have the mayor/pardoner among their ranks) to substitute their own members for bodyguards. Am I missing something?
3. As soon as one mafia family falls down to 2 or fewer members, they've essentially lost the game- they cannot win, because either they will be wiped out (the other mafia family wins), or they will reduce the other mafia family to 1-2 members in which case the Town wins. What incentive is there for this mafia family to keep playing, considering they cannot win? Will they have some kind of secondary objective, like a consolation prize? e.g. maybe a secondary objective of theirs would be to not be wiped out, in which case once they fall down to 2 members, they have to push for a Town win rather than let the other mafia family win.
4. What happens in the hypothetical case that all 30 Town members are dead, and after they all die, both families are reduced to 1-2 members each? Does the Town still win?
5. Why does the Gambino Family have a much cooler name than the Sumiyoshi Family?
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On February 10 2010 05:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 05:15 Zato-1 wrote: A few questions...
1. If a DT successfully ties a clue to a mafia member / RCs a mafia member, will that DT be told what family the mafia member belongs to? If the answer is yes, will millers appear to be from a random mafia family to DTs?
2. As far as I can see, it's a no-brainer for the mafia families (who don't have the mayor/pardoner among their ranks) to substitute their own members for bodyguards. Am I missing something?
3. As soon as one mafia family falls down to 2 or fewer members, they've essentially lost the game- they cannot win, because either they will be wiped out (the other mafia family wins), or they will reduce the other mafia family to 1-2 members in which case the Town wins. What incentive is there for this mafia family to keep playing, considering they cannot win? Will they have some kind of secondary objective, like a consolation prize? e.g. maybe a secondary objective of theirs would be to not be wiped out, in which case once they fall down to 2 members, they have to push for a Town win rather than let the other mafia family win.
4. What happens in the hypothetical case that all 30 Town members are dead, and after they all die, both families are reduced to 1-2 members each? Does the Town still win?
5. Why does the Gambino Family have a much cooler name than the Sumiyoshi Family? Sumiyoshi > Gambino Psh. Gambino sounds like an actual mafia family name. Sumiyoshi sounds like your local sushi joint family name.
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On February 10 2010 07:03 Ver wrote: 2. If it's such a 'no-brainer' the town will simply get the mayor to reveal the bgs then kill them. Mafia have to balance this possibility with the strength of infiltrating office. Right. I'd totally forgotten the Mayor knows the names of his bodyguards.
On February 10 2010 07:03 Ver wrote: 3. The Mafia family can still kill off the town and then kill the other family. Fair enough. If you have to kill every last Town member first, though, it's still a bit of a stretch to have to go to such lengths to have a chance to win, though... suddenly, your victory conditions go from 'kill all 10 mafia members of the other family' to 'kill all 30 Town members, THEN kill all 10 mafia members of the other family'. I'm not sure I like what this does for the game- the chance of winning is so remote, you're basically screwed if your numbers fall to 2 or lower.
I actually like the idea I proposed better- trying to screw the other mafia family over and preventing them from winning as a secondary objective. The remaining members of the battered mafia family still have a strong incentive to keep on being active players, and this brings an interesting twist to the Town- making a strategic alliance with the weaker mafia faction, in order to stand up together to the mafia faction that's winning- going as far as to try to medic cover them at night, etc. In fact, this is already an optimal strategy to the Town- if they allow the weaker mafia faction to die out completely, they lose. This just makes it interesting for the weaker mafia faction as well. Balance-wise, having the weaker mafia faction support the Town's cause will make the Town stronger as a faction, but this can easily be compensated for by adjusting the number of blue roles they have.
On February 10 2010 07:03 Ver wrote: 4. No, and this needs to be amended to the rules if it is not clear. Town cannot win if it's members are all dead. iirc we had a possible clause saying that the town needed to have a certain number of people left relative to the mafia but I'm not quite sure if it was viable. It wasn't clear to me, at least. It would be nice if this could be cleared up officially on the rules.
On February 10 2010 07:03 Ver wrote: 5. Give a better name then! The Salvatore Family
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I am so going to hell when I die for that last post
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On February 13 2010 03:40 redtooth wrote: chezinu is mafia. I vote chezinu That's not good enough. What mafia family is he from, Sashimi or Canelloni?
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My impressions:
On February 14 2010 07:43 Incognito wrote: Suddenly however, she noticed two horsemen stopped on the ridge in the distance. (...) Sure enough, the two horsemen began slowly approaching the town. It's evident that two horsement killed Qatol. But if this is a clue pointing at the mafioso who killed him, how can there be two horsemen? It makes me think of the Chaos Knight from DotA, a horseman who can create illusions of himself with his Phantasm ultimate. After looking through... 51 profiles... I can't really connect this to anyone at this time.
As to the other clues, there's a torch that comes from the side opposite the horsemen (points to a mafioso in the opposite family), a crazed psycopath who laughs and moves swiftly through the shadows, and someone that shines a lot, makes people explode and is on the team opposite the crazed psycopath.
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On another note-
Listen up, fellow townies, because this is important:
In a standard Town-versus-Mafia game, pointing out clues, behavior analysis and any other info that might lead us to the identities of mafia is always good. After all, it's a zero-sum game, us vs. them, if they lose then we win.
This game is different. If 'they' lose, by which I mean mafia members start dying, this will not necessarily be to our advantage. To illustrate my point, imagine there's 7 members of the Gambino family left alive, and 3 members of the Sumiyoshi family. Killing off additional members of the Sumiyoshi family in fact works against us- we're letting the Gambino family win. In fact, we actively do NOT want to publicly reveal the identities of the remaining Sumiyoshi family members in this example- we'd just be handing those names to the Gambino family on a platter so they can kill them at night.
Is this piece of info relevant? Not now, at any rate. But it might be later on in the game, if one of the mafia families starts hemorrhaging members and the other one doesn't. Feel free to post any serious leads you think you might have. Just remember that when we're getting leads on potential mafia members, we're also cluing in the mafia family to which that person doesn't belong to.
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On February 14 2010 09:10 L wrote: Ace, lol what happened. Incog hates you. It... does seem to look that way.
"If darkness is bad, why does it hide you? If light is good, why does it blind you?"
There are numerous references to the horsemen hiding in the shadows, and then to using light to blind dreamflower. I'm still not 100% convinced that this is all referring to Ace, but whatever doubt remains on my mind is only from the fact that day 1 clue analysis should be taken with a metric ton of salt.
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On February 14 2010 11:45 Ace wrote: Saying "this clue points to Ace" is just stupid.
Knowing this, I'm not surprised LL and Zato -1 are already accusing me. Look people, especially for you new players - I'm one of the biggest targets in any Mafia game. Every time. I'm super valuable. I catch people in lies all the time and I always save townies from the obvious bandwagon deaths. L and Zato may not have blatantly accused me but they just planted a seed of suspicion on me of all people, based on some wild clues. Be very wary of light weight accusations like this. I like how instead of refuting the claims, you make yourself sound so high and mighty that it's preposterous these suspicions were cast in the first place, therefore you don't need to give any explanations to anyone.
Yes, I agree that I contributed to casting a light of suspicion on you, based on L's post. Given how blatantly your profile matched the Day 1 clues, I'd say raising an eyebrow is warranted- but enough of that. It's derailing the conversation, since you're obviously less interested in attacking the arguments made against you than you are in attacking their proponents.
On February 14 2010 12:51 L wrote: 1) What's our job as town? Survive? Hunt mafia? You tell me. Without any Vigis this game, most of the KP lies in the mafia families, so we want to paint targets on mafia members' heads. Your math was more or less correct:
We need 16-17 mafia dead in order to win, and our numbers cannot drop below 5. With 6 KP a night in mafia hands (who are looking at a universe of targets of 10 mafia and 31 townies for a ~75% chance of hitting a town member if chosen at random), plus our very own 1 KP from a lynch (with a universe 20 mafia and 31 town targets for ~60% chance of lynching one of our own if chosen at random), we have 6 or 7 days on our hands- as you said, not nearly enough to lynch the 14+ mafia we need to kill (I'm assuming they'll manage to kill at least two or three of each others' ranks in the process).
If decisions are left to chance due to a lack of likely targets, we lose. Things we ought to do by tomorrow:
1. Get a list of people who haven't posted. 2. Point out anything that seems suspicious. You may lead their posters to gruesome deaths at mafia hands, but again- a lack of leads is just not good enough for us. We need to feed the mafia families info that is more likely to get them to kill other mafiosos than random chance, for now. The mafia families have the men of action- they get to make the big calls that determine who lives and who dies, mostly. We just play the role of detectives, for now. And choose a mayor / pardoner.
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On February 14 2010 14:13 redtooth wrote: if anything Ace seems more innocent because there are so many clues pointing to him. of course that doesn't give him guaranteed townie status (like what chezinu was trying with citizen). i think you are being absurd right now and am wondering if you just want him killed so you can take over the game. The affront to logic here is so egregious, that coupled with all of your previous posts in which you go out of your way to defend Ace one might think you have an ulterior motive for doing so. I mean, I can understand if you don't think much of clue analysis, and you've been pretty unambiguous on that subject. But from your posts, I can't help but get the impression that you KNOW Ace isn't mafia, or at least that you are committed to defending him.
Put another way, if Ace were to flip red, you would rank quite high on my next list of suspects. No, I am not accusing you of anything right now. Defending someone else and stopping a bandwagon before it begins has its merits if you feel the charges against that person lack substance. The fact that you have gone above and beyond this is... puzzling, at best.
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On February 14 2010 15:01 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: At this point, I'm all for citizen as mayor, last game he played extremely well, and he hasn't become involved in all of this Ace/Ver/L shaky clue analysis/finger pointing. Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office.
As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy.
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On February 14 2010 15:12 madnessman wrote: As others have mentioned, in the passage there is quite a lot of imagery regarding darkness and light. A lot of players' profiles allude to this in some form or another. So in this regard, getting carried away and everybody jumping on the bandwagon and pointing fingers at individuals whose profiles have a vague connection to these clues may not be the best idea. Well I'll be damned, someone actually made a compelling case for why the suspicion on Ace may be misplaced. Color me impressed.
The fact that darkness and light references not only have to do with the twin horsemen that killed Qatol, but go on with the burning house, the shadowy figure that killed Incognito and the radiant being that killed Kennigit... it does raise the possibility that while trying to portray one mafia family with imagery of darkness and the other with light, Incognito unwittingly placed Ace in the crossfire.
I am now prepared to admit that the evidence against Ace is insufficient. Well done, madnessman.
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On February 14 2010 15:30 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I10f has posted next to nothing for his candidacy yet is getting supporters? This is what makes one sketchy. He has votes, he has no platform past "i will lynch a previous red from another game" and bam he inspires confidence while hiding in the woodworks. All those who have so far fallen into support of him, or have voted for him are insanely suspect. I10f's proposed lynch target is not 'a previous red from another game'. If you think people shouldn't vote for him, you should start by trying to make your own campaign as attractive as possible, instead of threatening those who vote for others.
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On February 15 2010 02:42 L wrote: So, the moment I went to sleep, my insomniac mind came back to the question that I think is the core of this game: What should the town do?
And then I realized that its pretty obvious; The town needs to not die, and the town needs to have mafia killed. But how can you accomplish both while saving blues? I kinda wondered for a while, but then It became incredible obvious; Fully analyse each clueset. I think you're missing one part of the equation, L.
I have to thank Ver for this:
On February 14 2010 21:13 Ver wrote: So far this seems like a typical game. Normally mafia are either very active or take to the shadows and lurk. This game seems to be the latter, with a lot of town infighting and the mafia staying quiet and scheming. There's not much bandwagoning going on, just lots of confusion and various discussion of approaches etc. This isn't the kind of scenario where mafia need to post much. They just want to sit back and avoid getting noticed.
Look at the other side of the coin: What should the mafia families do?
Recently, there was a game in which DoctorHelvetica put on a pretty good performance as a Godfather pretending to be an active Town member. Now, ask yourselves this: would the mafia want to do such a thing in this game?
No. In a standard game, mafia loses if the Town lynches them properly, so they have to try to get townies to lynch each other. In this game, Town lynches have got to be the last thing on a mafia family's mind. The real danger to them is in the other mafia family's KP, so it's really a no-brainer to try to get under the radar and have their counterparts waste as many hits on Town targets as possible. Mafia members get so little benefit from misdirecting the Town on that one lynch they have, and it's so much effort to even get the Town to follow your lead, that it's just not worth it. Let the Town play its own little game- maybe they'll lynch a Gambino, maybe they'll lynch a Sumiyoshi, maybe they'll lynch a Town member. Who cares?
Participating actively won't particularly help mafia members unearth the identities of their real targets, and will definitely make themselves appear on the radar for the rival family. Best-case scenario, enemy family members are among the high-profile posters and you can take some out. Worst-case scenario, they're also lurking, in which case both mafia families will kill people randomly and a lot of Town members get killed.
So yeah, this goes for the rest of the Town as well as for both mafia families lurking around: You want to find tasty mafia targets to kill? Take a good, long look at those who are inactive / making short, inane posts.
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An addendum to my previous post: There is one good reason for mafia members to be active, and that is if they want to be mayor / pardoner. Being in the spotlight isn't so bad if you're protected from the enemy KP. So while there may be some mafiosos among the more active parts of the community (particularly those running for office), it's still a good idea to focus for now on the less active players, where the majority of the mafia population should be.
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On February 15 2010 09:26 Caller wrote: Thus, the mayor's role, assuming a townie gets in, is to try and organize town so as to search the bodyguards. Mafia don't have as strong of an incentive to kill DTs right now because DTs are a great way to get the roles of the opposing mafia. Thus, DTs can feel safe to check the bodyguards and the mayor should allow the DTs to get the bodyguard list. The problem is finding a way to get the DTs to contact the mayor while avoiding infiltrators posing as DTs to do role checks. But I think the risks for infiltration are too high-at best they will get one enemy mafia, and at worse will lose the infiltrator-a trade that I think will not be worth it. While I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying the incentives are too strong against it to make it worthwhile. There's a problem with your plan, Caller.
Imagine that I'm a mafia member from the Gambino family. I know that neither the mayor or the pardoner are from my ranks, and we have no infiltrated bodyguards. Since my family's goal is to kill all members of the Sumiyoshi family, this includes potentially killing the mayor / pardoner, because there's a good chance at least one of them is from the other family. Because they will be immune to hits due to bodyguards, getting the list of bodyguards will be quite valuable and possibly well worth the trade.
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On February 15 2010 12:15 Bill Murray wrote: the only problem with your analysis, though, my friend... is that you're already thinking from the perspective of an opposing mafia. Why? WHY ZATO? Game theory. When you have dynamic decision-making, in which the outcome of my decisions depends upon the decisions you take, the correct way to approach the problem is to determine your optimal course of action first, and once I know what you're going to do and therefore the payoff of each of my own choices, only then do I start looking at what is the optimal course of action for myself.
Sorry for the completely off-topic post, but I actually love game theory. Prisoner's dilemma and all that shiz- the very same reasoning that brought me to the conclusion, many pages ago, that mafia will mostly be lurking, so we should focus less on the really active players and more on those who are making shitty, short and content-free posts, and also on those who aren't posting at all.
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I'm currently reading page 48 of this thread. Keeping up to date is becoming nigh impossible due to the endless spam. I've officially asked L by PM to lynch Bill Murray if he becomes mayor because cluttering up the thread with spam as much as he does is making this game impossible to play.
Also, it doesn't help that DoctorHelvetica feels the need to reply to every other post in the thread, adding nothing of value with many of his posts. I'm sorry to add yet another content-free post to the pile, but playing this game right now feels like a chore, and the fastest way I can see to get it back on track is to lynch the godfather of spam, Bill Murray.
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Ok, done skimming over the last 17 pages. Things I've noted:
- Bill Murray and DoctorHelvetica keep posting away like there's no tomorrow. On the plus side, some of DoctorHelvetica's posts have been pretty helpful. I especially liked the one post + Show Spoiler [the post in question] +On February 15 2010 07:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:I stopped at page 24, I'm a bit exhausted. Here is my post so far: Argument CompilationAnything listed in red is an objectively untrue statement or something I find completely ridiculous. I didn't list a lot of redundant arguments for the sake of time, but I got mostly everything. I've changed my mind a bit after going back and really scrutinizing every post. I suggest everyone do the same, you'd be surprised what bad conclusions you may have come to because you weren't really thinking. I blame my lack of focus yesterday due to packing up my room and playing video games while half-assedly browsing the mafia thread, but from now on I'm on full alert ;o I will post another update to this when I feel it's relevant. KEEP IN MIND THAT I DID NOT COMPILE ARGUMENTS FROM PAGE 24 OR BEYONDBloodyC0bbler + Show Spoiler + Argues that people should vote him for mayor because he is a strong player who can guide the town.
I don't need to offer a strategy for the town to be mayor.
l10f has done nothing to get people to vote for him, anyone who votes for him is suspicious.
Don't use previous games to justify actions in this one.
If L is mafia he wants Ace dead because Ace is another mafia or a strong townie.
Ver + Show Spoiler +Discussing clues too much on the first day helps the mafia, Day 1 clues are very vague and shouldn't be taken seriously until later.
Posting behavior isn't very easy to lynch people off of unless they make bad mistakes.
We need to have a plan for the elected/blue roles and gather as much information as possible.
Don't hide your thoughts. Post whatever, the more active people are the harder it is for mafia to hide.
Instead of making immediate accusations based on clues, build clue profiles that grow stronger over time.
Primary suspect is BloodyC0bbler due to a change in posting behavior. L+ Show Spoiler +Looking at clues is very helpful, even on Day 1 because the clues are very good this time around.
The clues very clearly point toward Ace as being mafia.
Ace is discouraging clue analysis because he knows it will kill him.
We can't afford to waste any lynches.
Clues will help the mafia kill eachother for the benefit of the town.
Ace needs to provide an alternative person to fit the day 1 clues.
Ace is mafia because he refuses to analyze the clues and provide an alternative even though he is "innocent"
The majority of anything people discuss lead to innocent deaths. Discussion still needs to happen and will tell us who is active and who isn't.
Don't treat this game like a large 1 mafia game. Clues will be very important here.
There isn't necessarily a clear clue division between the two families.
The clues pointing to Ace are specific and very clear, not at all a stretch.
It isn't likely that clues will grow stronger over time due to the sheer amount of mafia in this game.
Don't make useless posts.
People should listen to my clue analysis because I am very good at it.
Town can't waste time due to KP disparity.
Saying Ace is innocent because Incog wants him alive makes it too easy to twist clues.
Mafia might have several good/veteran players.
People look more innocent if herring clues apply to them.
If Ace is red, Malongo probably is too.
Don't be scared to kill a good player on day 1.
I'm not trying to force Ace to die, I'm trying to analyze the clues. Offer an alternative fit if you want to turn away suspicion.
I don't want Ace dead, I want the moonlight rider dead.
Zato-1 + Show Spoiler +The Horsemen are on a different team from the torch thrower, the psychopath is on a different team from the angel.
There may come a time when we may need to help one mafia family survive over another.
The clue connection to Ace is strong, but perhaps not strong enough.
Ace needs to argue against the clues, not the people analyzing them.
Our job as town is to direct the mafia into killing eachother.
It seems redtooth has an ulterior motive for defending Ace.
laaan + Show Spoiler +Clues promote discussion which helps the town.
There is a possibility that BloodyCobbler's profile fits the clues.
Town should focus on keeping good players alive while the mafia kill eachother.
Mafia will want the pardoner role.
l10f + Show Spoiler +We shouldn't point fingers until later days.
If I am elected, I will lynch someone who was previously mafia.
Chezinu is mafia and I will lynch him if I'm mayor.
DoctorHelvetica + Show Spoiler +Let's not make accusations based on clues until later. Worry about the mayor lynch.
Agrees with Ver that clue profiling will be very helpful.
Don't lynch Day 1 based on clues, they're useful later.
BloodyCobbler should be lynched because the accusations on him are based on posting behavior and inconsistency.
Use clues to help DT's and the town in the late-game.
Malongo + Show Spoiler +We need a protected DT. Disagrees with Ver, even a wrong or fake analysis can help us. l10f should be mayor because he claimed blue l10f never roleclaimed a blue roleCaller, L, and BC are mafia Caller. Half inactive up to now. Posted defending BC out of nowhere. L: Wanted to change his profile. Not really doing what he does in all games to benefit the town. BC: Already spotted by ver. meeple + Show Spoiler +Clues will be very important here.
The accusation on BloodyCobbler is too weak to lynch him.
Town should focus on surviving and hunting mafia Mystlord + Show Spoiler +We shouldn't lynch on clues before Day 3.
Clues are mostly a vehicle for potentially incriminating discussion.
Don't lynch Chezinu Day 1 arbitrarily.
We need a mayor who is uninvolved in this drama.
Using information from past games isn't helpful.
Caller + Show Spoiler +BloodyCobbler will be such a helpful townie that he's a poor choice for a Day 1 lynch.
Don't lynch strong players without good reason. d3_crescentia + Show Spoiler +Don't lynch strong players without good reason.
Clues need to be strong in this game, we shouldn't ignore Day 1 clues because there are so many mafia.
We need to keep in mind how the dynamic shifts due to there being 2 mafia.
Abenson + Show Spoiler +Lynching someone based on posts hurts on the first day.
Focus on the elections Ace+ Show Spoiler +Talking about clues early is useless, they are useful later.
I'm being targeted by L and Zato because I'm a good pro-town player. (Implies L and Zat are mafia)
Be wary of light/ungrounded accusations.
Don't lynch strong players unless it is obvious they are mafia.
Blindly pointing fingers is bad no matter what.
Clues are subjective, not objective.
Never rely on clues.
I refuse to provide an alternative because I don't want to point fingers at anyone.
Clues are useful only when processed through DT's.
I can't be mafia because if I acted differently than in previous games everyone would notice and lynch me instantly.
I won't argue about clue analysis because it is subjective. I can debate whether they are valid because that is objective. Clue discussion leads to innocent death.
Don't think of this as 1v1v1, this game is about temporary allegiances as the mafia try to kill eachother.
L is trying to turn the town against me.
Very few people actually doubt me as pro-town.
L is trying to force my death and if I'm green/blue, he's definitely red.
Redtooth+ Show Spoiler +Day 1 clue analysis is useless.
Don't post distracting things.
Ace is right. Clue analysis is the last thing we need right now.
The winning mayor should lynch a veteran mayor candidate.
BloodyCobbler is suspicious.
Mafia will have one person running for mayor at least.
The clues pointing toward Ace are a stretch.
We will never have a good Day 1 analysis.
Incognito wouldn't make obvious clues point to Ace, even if Ace was mafia.
Ace plays aggressive whether he is mafia or town, attacking his argument style is useless.
An alliance between mafia will be terrible for the town.
I agree that we will probably never see 2 sets of clues on 1 mafia.
If Ace was mafia, incognito wants him alive.
Ace is innocent because the clues point to him.
There have been no mafia accusations between L and Ace up until now. -Untrue. L directly said "I think you're red" to Ace before this post, Ace also implied Zato/L were mafia in his first post although he didn't directly accuse them
L is upset about the last game in which he was mafia which is why he wants Ace dead.
Ace isn't necessarily innocent, the clues just don't point to him. Clue analysis on day 1 is trash.
Dozko + Show Spoiler +Disagrees with Ace: Behavioral analysis is much more subjective than clues.
All we have are Day 1 clues, we shouldn't ignore them.
Chezinu + Show Spoiler +Day 1 clues are good to start discussion.
Use clues to accuse people even if you don't really suspect them, then analyze their reaction.
I should be mayor because I am untrustworthy.
There is no such thing as a wasted post.
Don't kill me.
What people say in public isn't necessarily what they actually think. Hobbes + Show Spoiler +By lynching active posters with clues pointing toward them, we gain a lot of helpful information.
It isn't a bad idea to lynch Ace.
Just because a player is good doesn't mean they are sacrosanct. The bolded spoilers are very important as they will shine a lot of light on the argument between Ace/L/Redtooth. After reading through the thread more closely, I believe clue analysis is a lot more important than I first though. The clues are much stronger and L's point about clue profiling being mostly useless because of the large number of mafia is a very good one. L has been consistent and well-spoken in his arguments. Ace/Redtooth have been a bit inconsistent and too personal. Saying things like "L is obviously upset about this previous game" doesn't help anything and is just worthless speculation that distracts from the real argument. Ace's refusal to provide an alternative fit cannot be ignored. L did imply that Ace was butthurt about a previous game and I do hold that against him, unless he has some sort of strategical reason for doing so (such as trying to provoke a specific reaction) Read through this and make what you will of it! Keep in mind newer arguments (Page 24 onward) aren't posted here. in which he summed up what's been going on in the game- in fact, even though I've mostly read through everything, an update of this post would be very much appreciated. Most of his other posts are short replies in conversations with Ace / redtooth / Bill Murray, and those have mostly just helped to clutter up the thread. Bill Murray... let's just say I'm not playing in a mafia game in which he's playing, ever again. I've stopped reading his posts, and so should you. He's contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING all game long, and is spamming the shit out of all of us.
- Much like Bill Murray, Ace has made no contributions whatsoever. L made a note of this at some point- Ace has just been pointing out why anyone who suspects him must be a half-wit, and has otherwise been making pointless witty remarks. This makes me think he is, in fact, mafia. Not based upon clue analysis like at the start of the game, but based on behavioral analysis. If he's running for mayor and posting a lot, why would he just post a steaming pile of shit all game long?
- I've warned twice of the people who are lurking. I'll do it again. Yes, there are probably a few mafia among high-profile posters. There are two people among them who I believe are NOT mafia at this point- L and redtooth. L because he's been the single most powerful voice of reason so far and has provided the Town with leadership that might actually get us somewhere. redtooth, because of the post he made when he announced he would vote for L. At any rate, the important part right now is: It's night time. I said at one point that mafia are the men of action, the Town can only hope to direct their guns at one another instead of having them shoot randomly. Well, it's that time folks. If you want to do the Town a real service, post the names of those you think are mafia, and why you think that. It's in our best interest to help the mafia families to get to know one another right now.
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