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On November 04 2009 09:57 Scamp wrote:
Well this was when there were three living reds but yeah, I understand the scenerio is unlikely.
Also it seems L of all people just voted to help keep me alive while I was writing that long thing. Will wonders never cease!
I know you're green but your death gives Shikyo his confirmation. If he dies, there's no point for you to die as well.
Mostly I'm just seeing if someone's got the balls to switch the vote up again.
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But sadly it tells us nothing if you're the one that switches things up.
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To do list for next game: Get a script for this shit.
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And now we get to find out if shikyo is GF or not.
Sugi, if we're using the third party check system you talked about, now's the time to pick (or pick someone to pick) and get shikyo confirmed.
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it was also L's vote that killed you FYI. well, to be fair, I was also the one that pushed him to the tie breaker. I voted because scamp wasn't on the no-vote list, so I assumed he voted (i checked if he voted shikyo to see if he could swing the vote too) if anyone had the balls to kill someone who could have been a DT, we would have had a good suspect to go on today, but then Ver's voting hilarity kinda got in the way, because scamp didn't actually vote for anyone.
Him voting for himself totally ruined what I was trying to do, so I just brought things back to the pre-me intervention status. I was actually going to vote for him, then abstain to re-tie things with scamp ahead as was previously desired, but I was pretty much the last vote so I didn't bother.
Either way, we need to get rolling on checking shikyo, so sugi plz stop being afk :3
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What.
Didn't you say you wanted to hold your rolecheck back so that we could have a third party give both of you someone random to check so we could see if he had DT powers or not?
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Y'all should probably read the thread; Sugi already checked tricode in a fit of rage and kinda ruined our ability to salvage shikyo if he isn't lying.
Really not happy with this emotional play from all involved parties.
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Are you fucking serious. Didn't you prot yourself tonight?
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
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We are having a very nice long conversation after this game about how to play mafia.
I am so angry right now. This is fucking retarded.
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On November 05 2009 11:06 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2009 10:53 L wrote:
Are you fucking serious. Didn't you prot yourself tonight?
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK. Umm Paramedic - You have the ability to prevent one hit per night on a player of your choice, besides yourself, during the night. Each paramedic can only stop one hit and as such if the number of mafia is greater than the number of paramedics on a player then that player will die. You will know if you saved the person and the target will know if he was saved. However, the town will know nothing of the event. If you are protecting a veteran, and they are hit, your ability supercedes theirs. 
I see that edit on the first page. You can't get cute with me.
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From: RebirthOfLeGenD [ Profile | Buddy ]
Subject: Re: O_o
Date: 11/4/09 12:33
The rules actually don't state that I can't protect myself, so I guess I will try.
The timing of the edit as a reaction to Rebirth actually trying what was said, as well as the fact that I personally checked indicate a conspiracy.
I guess rebirth tried but didn't tell me he was told otherwise.
Still, I'm fucking angry.
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Well, mostly I'm angry at RoL's reaction to scamp's questioning, because without him all but pseudo claiming in the thread, this wouldn't have been an issue at all.
>: | fucking cockpenisdong
I'm going to go fucking install borderlands and shoot shit to calm down.
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Defending myself against what? If Shikyo and I are the only two possible people who can be godfather, then he's going to flip GF when he's killed.
The problem, however, is that there aren't 2 possible GFs. There are 9. I used to think GFs could only pretend to be a blue role and that you were 100% confirmed legit because RoL blocked a hit on you and that you knew something that I didn't about shikyo via pms, which is why I thought there was something behind the "its gotta be amber/shikyo/L" statement. Turns out, however, that none of the above are true.
I always wondered why mafia would hit a target when I specifically made it pretty clear in the thread that you were going to get protected that night. I just talked to Qatol and it seems that mafia can target their own players for hits, meaning that the hit after chez died could have been a pretty easy method of fucking with the medic, especially after chez got raped and they needed a trump to counteract that. Additionally, the godfather can flip green, yet there's been pretty much zero talk of any of the green players being the GF despite this being pretty much the exact play that chezinu made in the first game where he brought this brown crap in. Seeing as he's part of the mafia, it would make sense for him to advise someone else to do the exact same 'green and keep your head down' strategy.
That's not even to accuse you, but to show you that there are 9 possible people who could be godfather, including yourself, if we look at all the options, yet you've arbitrarily decided that its shikyo and me while casually brushing off the fact that you've once again delayed getting shikyo confirmed.
As for who knew RoL was the medic; I specifically told RoL to claim something else (vig/hatter) and that he shouldn't have pseudo claimed in the thread. I also told him to protect himself (which sadly, as you've seen above, turned out to not work). From the timing of the PMs and the edit, when I told him that I wanted him to protect himself, it was prior to the rules being errata'd, which I wasn't even aware of until Qatol linked them. I did more than anyone else in the game to keep RoL alive through this night.
RoL fucked up when, to satisfy Scamp's curiosity, he let out that he knew everything that was going on in our PM ring. See, because with that piece of information, someone could mosey on over to your list and wonder why a green with no checks on him would know all that stuff. If he's in our ring, someone checked him, or he claimed/was confirmed as blue. Add 1 + 1 and any mafia who was looking for the medic knew he was the only role we hadn't revealed to that point: the last medic.
Gee... I wonder how Shikyo could have gotten all of them right with out being a dt? The first two were claimed before shikyo said he checked them. He reacted to my claim about being a vet, and then didn't answer me until halfway through the next day when I asked him about his BC check. By then he could have learned about his role from RoL, sugi, pyrr or BC himself, since he claimed it in the thread prior to shikyo PMing me back. Scamp being anything but green when shikyo knew all of the identities of the blues at that point via our ring would have been very hard to accept, but even if he was wrong, he could have blamed the difference to his DT alignment, since he had only checked blues up until then. Zero of his checks involved any risk.
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I find it pretty hilarious that everyone assumes that infund somehow claimed to me, or that scamp would give me information when it was pretty obvious that both of them thought I was the anti-christ. Especially after I told people to not claim to me given that I wasn't confirmed. I mean, I've been waiting to see if anyone would say anything, but no one has. The sad part is that no one told me anything, but conjecture and lynching our blues seems to be the best plan sugi can put forward.
I also find it hilarious that despite the only piece of evidence being brought up against me, the fact that RoL was known to me, hasn't been questioned given the fact that pyrr himself at the top of the page basically admits that a bunch of people knew, especially given the fact that between RoL's claim and sugi's list, he was known to everyone from yesterday forward.
I mean, if the only plan we can come up with is 'murder all our blues' and no one in the town even bothers questions that, something is deeply wrong.
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I do have a plan for going forward, but I wanted to go back and check all of the voting lists and information when I wasn't angry to put it together. It specifically has to do with not the identity of the godfather, but of the last non-GF mafia and that's the only part I haven't worked out.
You're right that there has to be a reason the mafia are still in the game, since after Chez died, it would seem that they would conceed. So the idea is that they have to have some form of Ace in the hole. At the time that Chez died, infund and scamp were trying to get me killed, so L as a trump during that time period would have been a pretty shitty one.
Its very odd, however, that after checking pretty much everyone in the game, no one's popped up as mafia. Amber's begging to be checked, so he's pretty much gf or bodyguard and very unlikely to be the last non-gf mafia. Motbob's said nothing pretty much all game which makes him potentially mafia, but frankly he was pretty heavily accused early on and nothing came of it. I wanted to go back and see where that would lead, tbh, to see exactly what motbob's been doing and such, but I'm going to have to present what I've got thusfar:
The only rational explanation for this that I can think of is that one of the DTs isn't one. It strikes me as a bit crazy that we would have a hatter, THREE dts, 2 medics, a vet, and potentially a vig or something in pyrr or motbob, but that's unlikely. If that's the case, then either shikyo's or sugi's 'checks' aren't actually checks, but substitutions. Since shikyo's checks are all pretty much confirmed besides me, and since I know his check on me is accurate, it seems unlikely to me that he would be the GF. He doesn't have an out and he's slated to die soon. Once he dies, if he's the GF, his non-GF mafia is dead within 2 days as the weight of checks crushes his team. If shikyo is mafia, they would have conceeded. That is why I didn't want to have him killed yesterday.
That leaves sugi, who until today I thought was 100% confirmed, but now I discover she isn't.
The plans I've set up to get the detectives confirmed so that we could get everyone credibly checked was ruined not by me, but by sugi. We wanted to crosscheck her and shikyo to see who was lying, but she chickened out. She blames it on rage. RoL's death was precipitated in part due to her bungling of her list. She blames it on me. Additionally she's been trying to kill off shikyo who's most likely a goddam DT instead of using our plan to check him. And she had cobbler killed after convincing him to suicide himself in PMs, as far as I can tell.
As soon as shikyo dies, none of her checks can be verified as well. If i die and flip blue, sugi already has an excuse built in: it was shikyo. If shikyo dies and flips blue, she can claim amber, pyrr or any of the greens. Regardless of what happens, she can, and has been, accusing people that we've DT checked and then tries to get them killed.
It seems the only possible reason that mafia are still in the game is that sugi is the GF.
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You didn't bother reading her gigantic cry "i want to die" post above?
I didn't jump from shikyo to midori at all. I've been defending shikyo the entire game against midori of all people. I saved him from dying.
We don't know if anything that sugi has 'checked' is correct. The default is green, and we knew most of the blues. The fact that we have almost nothing left to check and we still haven't found any reds is pretty telling that something is wrong.
Would be very interesting if you were the covert green, but I rather suspect redtooth over you.
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On November 06 2009 06:38 Tricode wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2009 06:31 L wrote:
You didn't bother reading her gigantic cry "i want to die" post above?
I didn't jump from shikyo to midori at all. I've been defending shikyo the entire game against midori of all people. I saved him from dying.
We don't know if anything that sugi has 'checked' is correct. The default is green, and we knew most of the blues. The fact that we have almost nothing left to check and we still haven't found any reds is pretty telling that something is wrong.
Would be very interesting if you were the covert green, but I rather suspect redtooth over you. At one point you were voting to lynch Shikyo, how can you say you were trying to defend shikyo the entire game?
Err, which point was that, champ? The point where scamp was ahead and after he tried to save himself I single handedly saved shikyo? Oh.
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On November 06 2009 07:18 Tricode wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2009 06:31 L wrote:
You didn't bother reading her gigantic cry "i want to die" post above?
I didn't jump from shikyo to midori at all. I've been defending shikyo the entire game against midori of all people. I saved him from dying.
We don't know if anything that sugi has 'checked' is correct. The default is green, and we knew most of the blues. The fact that we have almost nothing left to check and we still haven't found any reds is pretty telling that something is wrong.
Would be very interesting if you were the covert green, but I rather suspect redtooth over you. What makes this the most difficult is that you had this circle and no matter what happens it seems like this circle you guys created decided to tell everyone everything. (Basically it seems like people fucked up the circle to where a good thing for the town went bad) The problem is you all can throw this (oh we had this circle and x knew y) there is something wrong with what everyone has done so far in this game (including midori) but because of this circle that you all created and decided to blab to much to each other (whether you did or not, can only be believed after the game is over, i am not trying to point fingers at who blabbed what out when they shouldn't have. My only point is the circle you were in screwed up and mafia took advantage of it) So we come to this problem, who to believe becomes difficult cause you all seem to share for the most part the same information. So in your final hours (unless you can really prove someone is mafia or can give us more comfort in believing you are not red) i believe you should do what ever you can to help the town (if you are townie) because so far you are still a mafia candidate. Though if you are right in your assumption that would explain redtooth (which i actually hope you are wrong so the town can just go win this) Now to add this. If midori was truly mafia (including redtooth) does everyone else truly believe they could be so determined in this game that they both believe they could win this with 1 kp when with this lynch or even after this we will get at least one of them, and then eventually get the last? Are these last two players in your opinion considered to be skilled enough to hide and hurt the town as much as they have? (basically would you considered them a vet that would balance the mafia team out if the game did have some type of balance system going on.)
I'll address the points from the bottom up.
Chez and Judge are not poor players. Judge has been shown to be very, very strong in no-clue games from his performance on mafiascum, and Chez has tugged mafia to victory by laying low as the godfather in the past. Now, if sugi and redtooth, or sugi and you or sugi and pretty much anyone that sugi checked turn out to be mafia, you have 1 top tier player in the format, 2 fairly strong players, and 1 straggler. That looks fairly standard.
On the topic of determination; it explains the potential self hit and why no one talked about it. While I made it very clear that I wasn't confirmed, sugi basically ran off with the title and has killed off only blues and greens. I deferred to her during the time I was certain she was confirmed because I assumed people had claimed to her and told her additional information, but from these last few pages, especially her check on you when we were supposed to solve her v shikyo once and for all have thrown a mountain of doubt onto her.
Now, for what I can do for the town, I can tell you this; If sugi is the GF and we kill me or shikyo today, we lose. Flat out. No one else has had the balls to stand up to her and that's likely not going to change. The excuses that she uses today will not change tomorrow. She needs to die tonight so that we can have shikyo check redtooth because its most likely that this is the check pair where the non-GF mafia is.
If sugi isn't the GF, then all her checks are validated, which puts us in a fantastic position to kill the non-GF. We have shikyo check amber instead of redtooth, then we lynch motbob. If neither of those turn up red, we kill pyrr, the last possible choice. Once we get this information (and we get it in 2 days, max.) we should have 5 people remaining. This will 100% net us a mafia.
As for the propriety of the circle, I agree that people fucked up. I was the only person to explicitly in the thread tell people to not claim to me, whereas everyone else was wide open for it. I talked to very few people about very little information because I didn't want to spread information to people who shouldn't have it. The people who did most of the talking were RoL and Sugi, to my knowledge, but I rarely talked to sugi (think we have like 2-3 PMs between us tops), and I only confided in RoL because I 100% knew he could trust. I basically asked shikyo for his checks and revealed them whenever he would tell me about them to keep him safe.
That vomitting of information around is precisely why I want to have a little chat with the players in this game after its done. RoL's move basically got himself killed with no consequences to the killer.
But here I notice you forget something. You say that sugi and I had equivalent information, but that's not true. If you read the game, you'd know that sugi was in a PM ring with chez and shikyo around day 2, and that all of the members, according to what sugi said, had claimed to each other. If that's the case, and this is very important, why was sugi not killed night 2, or 3 for that matter? We know mafia knew about 2 potential DTs, yet none of them were hit. This tells us with certainty that the mafia had a plan to 'deal' with the DTs before they became dangerous, which heavily implies that one of the DTs was fake and going to throw out false information. Sugi also adamantly defended chez for the majority of the game and heaped suspicion on shikyo the entire time.
But yeah, there was a mountain of poor play by the people in the circle. Shikyo missing a check, RoL basically claiming for no reason, Sugi not following the play we had both worked out to check her and shikyo, etc. I can't really explain away any of it, but as RoL shows, its possible to screw up and still be innocent. Its more the magnitude and method of the explanation that sugi has used that makes me very suspicious of her.
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On November 06 2009 08:34 motbob wrote:
You are being clueless at best and lying at worst if you say that Chez is a good player. To say that him being idle when he was GF in Plexa's game is somehow an indicator of skill seems disingenuous. Simply looking at his posting will show you that he isn't taking the game seriously at all.
Maybe I'm being too nice. If I make my middle category "average" the point gets across all the same.
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So basically you have a bunch of PMs wherein shikyo is protecting chez, but decide to only reveal them now despite trying to slowplay a case against shikyo the entire game and trying to get him lynched over scamp?
Why is it that I don't think that adds up? If you thought he was the GF and voted to have him killed during the double lynch, why wouldn't you post this information then?
Lets look at this portion of your post:
However, according to my plan, it doesn't matter if we kill L, and it in fact gives us more information.. with him showing red or GF !yay!.. if he shows blue, then we know Shikyo is probably legit, so we can go after Amber (if he turns red when I check him) motbob, and Pyrr.
First off, yeah, it matters if we kill a blue. Second if you're GF, shikyo could easily die tonight, or you could slow play that too, granted that you've set up a bunch of fake green checks. Third, Amber/motbob/pyrr might all be innocent if you aren't. But lets assume I die tonight and flip blue, then shikyo gets hit and flips blue. Your reaction to that is to kill off amber, another blue, then motbob, who should be checked by the legit DT, then pyrr who also is blue. Basically you've just gutted all of the town's abilities besides yours and people are happy with that.
Why does that seem odd to me?
Well, probably because we have this left. Lets look at the above scenario in terms of days spent doing it.
8. Amber[Light] (Night 7)
9. Pyrrhuloxia Mayor (Night 8)
10. L (Day 6)
11. Tricode
12. Vivi57 (Day 7)
14. Sugiuramidori
16. Shikyo (Night 6)
18. Motbob (Day 8)
19. Redtooth
Assuming you are GF and you have someone hiding in the greens, as long as you ransack the blues like you propose in the that post, mafia wins.
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EPT
