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Bruiser JunglersBecause Fuck You Laners
Between nerfs and Cinderhulk, bruiser junglers have sort of lost their identity. Their old build of Warrior into tank, with the occasional Hexdrinker became swiftly outdated. At that point, might as well switch to Cinderhulk. At that point, might as well switch to a tank jungler. As a result, I've seen bruiser jungler builds become a bit dysfunctional - building on a gold share they couldn't afford to be effective with or building too much damage and then becoming a liabilty when picked. When the Black Cleaver got reworked, I tried to think of a better way to fix the issue, since it opened another option for Phage in the jungle that let things just fall into place.
Skirmisher's Blade gives a solid start. Skirmisher's is taken because we'll be taking more damage than in previous tankier builds and with the lowered smite range on champions, Chilling Smite won't really be cutting it when you're already in their face. Black Cleaver ties in pretty nicely with most bruiser junglers who already reduce armor themselves and can stack it fast, with a decent amount of health and a heaping serving of CDR. The mainstay Hexdrinker makes it's appearance, being that efficiency superstar that grows to have some real teeth lategame. Finally, an item that I think hasn't been experimented enough, [s]Chilly Mitten[s] I mean Iceborn Gauntlet. It provides the missing resist in armor, the Spellblade passive replaces Chilling Smite and applies a Cleaver stack all while nudging CDR on the build at 30%. Boots are left open to as necessitates and 6th item can be whatever.
When you feel you need more durability, take the Cinderhulk enchant and Rune/Mastery for 10% CDR. If you want to pound faces in harder, pick up Warrior and opt for a bit of Fury and get more MR out of glyphs. Given that Iceborn Gauntlet is kinda greedy, it might need to be substituted for Randuin's depending on your team comp.
Unfortunately, the build needs modification in the case of Lee Sin and Rek'Sai, due to their lack of mana. In which case swapping out for Randuin's is probably the best option. Lee Sin has the extra hurdle of the 800g Sightstone the he needs to get around, so it's probably better to stick to Cinderhulk on him regardless to get more gold value out of that slot.
It's nothing ground breaking, it's selfish to play, but I think it fits in soloq pretty well.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
none of Pantheon, Wukong, Vi or Jarvan have mana problems later on last I tried. They don't have any useful AP ratios either. Don't think IBG is a good item on them, it's pretty inefficient as it is. You're paying 2900 gold for 10% CDR, 60 armor and the proc. That's really bad.
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To tell you the truth, I don't think bruiser, assassin or ap junglers are any weaker in soloQ then before the Cinderhulk, they can still do what they were doing before and its really not a big deal that someone can pick a tank jungler and do good shit as well (even better than you). For example I play Rengar/Yi a lot when jungling at paltinum level and can't feel any difference from before. I couldn't careless that I have to play vs Sejuany/Gragas and no Vi/Lee Sin. The reason is that the skill gaps in soloQ are so huge on every level (I would assume even at challenger) that a slightly better item cannot cover such gap at all. I would chose to play vs Cinderhulk jungle anytime than against Lee Sin/Vi/Fiddle/Rengar/Nidalee mains. The way you can play your champ is so much more important in soloQ than a item, I can't even understand why is anyone who is not a progamer concerned about this. There were times when some champs were really OP and they definitely impacted soloQ in their prime, but the case of Cinderhulk is far far from something like this imo
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
wtf? of course they are weaker than they used to be. of course it matters how good you are at the champion, but saying that warrior's junglers aren't any weaker after the introduction of cinderhulk is just wrong.
I don't mean to scare you off, but in the strategy section of this forum that this thread is in you might find discussions about things that affect the game even less than WHAT CHAMPION YOU PICK, so if you want to question the utility of such discussions for non-pro players you might want to choose a different place to discuss it.
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One of my favorite things to do now is Juggernaut -> phage -> locket-> BC. Or you can fit in hexdrinker instead of locket if you feel like you can straight up carry. Pretty solid core 3 items, tons of health, really strong damage. Usually finish off with Randuins, or Thornmail.
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United States37500 Posts
Out of my jungle pool, I feel like the only champs I don't go Cinderhulk on are Vi (Warrior) and Shyvana (Devourer). Even Reksai I've switched over to Cinderhulk because of how ez mode it is.
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Yeah, the risk reward is completely out of wack for warrior's. I think that last 5 ad they removed was overkill when it was on the same patch they introduced cinderhulk.
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I love how one patch ago everyones like I THINK JUNGLE TANKS ARE FUNDEMENTALLY UNVIABLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT BRUISERS DO WHAT THEY DO AND MORE one patch later guys guys guys, I have a crazy idea can BRUISER junglers work?!?!?!?!?
Anyway your build ideas aren't so good mostly because you generally want quite a bit of health. Heath is the cheapest way to get EHP most of the time and cinderhulk scaling with hp as well as giving it is a big reason its bought. If you're going warrior you want to go heavy HP afterwards if you want to be tanky. If you don't you can go straight trinity or ghostblade first. Otherwise you want to go like locket/giants into randuins or like giants hexdrinker with tabi or something that's going to make you tanky.
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On May 14 2015 04:48 Slayer91 wrote: I love how one patch ago everyones like I THINK JUNGLE TANKS ARE FUNDEMENTALLY UNVIABLE DUE TO THE FACT THAT BRUISERS DO WHAT THEY DO AND MORE one patch later guys guys guys, I have a crazy idea can BRUISER junglers work?!?!?!?!?
Anyway your build ideas aren't so good mostly because you generally want quite a bit of health. Heath is the cheapest way to get EHP most of the time and cinderhulk scaling with hp as well as giving it is a big reason its bought. If you're going warrior you want to go heavy HP afterwards if you want to be tanky. If you don't you can go straight trinity or ghostblade first. Otherwise you want to go like locket/giants into randuins or like giants hexdrinker with tabi or something that's going to make you tanky.
One patch ago new BC didn't exist.
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On May 14 2015 05:38 Slayer91 wrote: What's your point? that opinion change due to game change isn't arbitrary.
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I'm not saying its arbitrary I'm saying everyone overreacts as fuck to everything. Tanks weren't obsolete last patch (2 patches ago?) and bruisers aren't obsolete this patch. It's just if something is 5% stronger then its worth playing 100% of the time but that doesn't mean everything else is totally useless, in terms of solo q, you can easily make up the slight disadvantage in playing a slightly weaker champ.
New BC has good stats but it has the issue that its an anti tank item thats good on champs that generally don't get to focus tanks in teamfights. If you're playing Vi or something you're probably going to focus on trying to 2 shot their ADC UNLESS you are going full tank with cinderhulk+BC+rest tank items in which case you're not going warrior anyway.
Now the game design way to balance having something 5% stronger is that each champ should have its own strengths and weaknesses but instead rito ships out champions like reksai who can do literally everything, and, it turns out, the reworked gragas.
I just hate "thresh-like" champs in general zz. If you want to make a champ super versatile you should make them weaker in teamfights.
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On May 14 2015 05:46 Slayer91 wrote: I'm not saying its arbitrary I'm saying everyone overreacts as fuck to everything. Tanks weren't obsolete last patch (2 patches ago?) and bruisers aren't obsolete this patch. It's just if something is 5% stronger then its worth playing 100% of the time but that doesn't mean everything else is totally useless, in terms of solo q, you can easily make up the slight disadvantage in playing a slightly weaker champ.
New BC has good stats but it has the issue that its an anti tank item thats good on champs that generally don't get to focus tanks in teamfights. If you're playing Vi or something you're probably going to focus on trying to 2 shot their ADC UNLESS you are going full tank with cinderhulk+BC+rest tank items in which case you're not going warrior anyway.
Now the game design way to balance having something 5% stronger is that each champ should have its own strengths and weaknesses but instead rito ships out champions like reksai who can do literally everything, and, it turns out, the reworked gragas.
I just hate "thresh-like" champs in general zz. If you want to make a champ super versatile you should make them weaker in teamfights. ah okay, Yeah I sort of agree. I think the reason this comes up is Sej + grags being a popular ban, tier 2 bruisers are pretty viable in solo queue. I still think there's a high risk moderate reward for going warriors still, you're still better off going juggernaut majority of the time on them, and building BC+ another offensive item, into full tank.
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its pretty hard to quantify the risk reward of building a certain item without seeing teamcomps, your bias toward the meta is just showing again. If they have a bunch of melees like diana and sion or something being a Vi with full tank might be a hell of a lot weaker than just going warrior+trinity-->randuins and being able to 2shot their ADC anytime they try to dive (but they still cant focus you because melees jumping on the same target is bad news if you have any AoE at all)
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IBG sounds absolutely awful when Trinity Force exists.
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On May 13 2015 21:34 Scip wrote: none of Pantheon, Wukong, Vi or Jarvan have mana problems later on last I tried. They don't have any useful AP ratios either. Don't think IBG is a good item on them, it's pretty inefficient as it is. You're paying 2900 gold for 10% CDR, 60 armor and the proc. That's really bad. And yet most of those champions will build Sheen anyway while getting Triforce that comes with AS Crit that have just about as much use for as the mana that comes from Shroud. Yeah, it's not the best item ever, but I think it's better than people give it credit.
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On May 14 2015 05:46 Slayer91 wrote: I'm not saying its arbitrary I'm saying everyone overreacts as fuck to everything. Tanks weren't obsolete last patch (2 patches ago?) and bruisers aren't obsolete this patch. It's just if something is 5% stronger then its worth playing 100% of the time but that doesn't mean everything else is totally useless, in terms of solo q, you can easily make up the slight disadvantage in playing a slightly weaker champ.
New BC has good stats but it has the issue that its an anti tank item thats good on champs that generally don't get to focus tanks in teamfights. If you're playing Vi or something you're probably going to focus on trying to 2 shot their ADC UNLESS you are going full tank with cinderhulk+BC+rest tank items in which case you're not going warrior anyway.
Now the game design way to balance having something 5% stronger is that each champ should have its own strengths and weaknesses but instead rito ships out champions like reksai who can do literally everything, and, it turns out, the reworked gragas.
I just hate "thresh-like" champs in general zz. If you want to make a champ super versatile you should make them weaker in teamfights.
People don't overreact. And obsolete is the wrong word for a game like LOL. The operative word is suboptimal. And for the jungle, in particular, it seems almost impossible for Riot to balance the jungle items and the jungle camps to effectively make all of them optimal at once, even on different champions in different team compositions.
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On May 14 2015 13:01 Sufficiency wrote: IBG sounds absolutely awful when Trinity Force exists.
what happened? You used to be the biggest Iceborne proponent I knew
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I have been playing around with the new black cleaver on both vi and wukong. For vi I have found that 99 percent of the time cinderhulk and bc are bad items on her. The CDR on the new black cleaver is great but the loss of the brutalizer build path and lack of flat pen hurts her burst. Vi is at her strongest at level 11 where u goal should be able to delete a squishy target. If u went cinderhulk unless u are extremely ahead u won't be able to do this. I find the most ideal builds on vi to be warrior then into either triforce if fed early/ brutalizer most other case/ hex if they have a ton of ap or something like a fed Leblanc or mid chogath. From there u want to get tanky and pick up a last whisper as your last item. Also I sell my brutilzer late game rather then upgrade it now. I use that slot for my last whisper or hexdrinker most of the time. Wukong I love the new black cleaver on I have been going warrior black cleaver into omens/locket/ thornmail
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You don't build/pick Tank Vi for midgame damage. You do it for the lockdown, shred and the early ganks. Seems... painfully obvious.
I think a big issue is people have some misconceptions about when items like BC are strong and keep trying to fill inappropriate niches with it.
Triforce is great on a lot of people, but because IBG is a lot more niche, it's gonna fall by the wayside unless you're Skarner or something.
Cinderhulk makes so many tank paths significantly more efficient. My gold standard for variable theoretical build paths on bruisers/tanks is GP. Full tank after your one damage item, Frozen Mallet/BC/Cinderhulk, Triforce/Hexdrinker/Warrior, random Hydra if you're lane GP, so on, so forth.
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