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On April 13 2015 08:29 GolemMadness wrote:
You should practically always win lane with W max simply because you win every trade. All you need to do is stand behind your ADC and he basically 2v1s. W is significantly better in team fights because at max rank, you're basically healing 4 times more than at rank 1 (base heal is doubled, cooldown is halved).
With Q maxed, it'll do around 4 times more damage, but that's not Soraka's role. If you can keep your ADC alive, he'll do more damage than you ever will with Q's. If you can keep your front line alive, you're keeping the other team off your carries.
Those are some fair points to make! First off, I'd like to say having the power to decide the fate of your lane with your own action and damage is far more valuable than trusting a random ADC in solo queue. Not only does she control a lane by herself by maxing Q she will also be able to heal a cowardly/bad ADC effectively with one point in W. I'm not sure how many confident/good ADCs you play with in solo queue, I find them to be a rarity. To the extent of your ADC trading 2v1; I feel Janna is much better suited for the job. If you know you can rely on your ADC to have a set of balls, leveling heal first could be an option. I feel you also underestimate the power of a 970 range large AOE nuke for zoning potential in terms of denying cs and granting your ADC advantages in lane. Onto the numbers!
Lets first look at base W to base Q. Q does 70-240 min to 105-345 max damage. Each level gives 40-60 damage and from rank 1 to 5 grows to be 3.4 times as much damage.
Her base heal starts at 120 and scales up to 240 at max rank. While the self heal is 25-65 min to 50-130 max. Each level gives an extra 30hp to the heal and from rank 1 to 5 grows to twice as much healing. The self heal grows from 10-20 hp per level and from rank 1 to 5 grows to be 2.6 times as strong.
As far as quick trades go in lane, leveling Q is much more efficient. If both sides decide to all in at 100% hp, leveling heal might be better. It's definitely more reliable since it's a targeted ability. But how often does that happen? How often do both sides consensually decide to all in at the same time? Almost never. The poke damage is much more valuable in the laning phase than the heal.
As far as raw numbers go, over the course of a multiple spell rotation team fight a maxed heal will give higher numbers than maxed Q: no questions asked. On a spreadsheet leveling heal is the best. Realistically, how long do early-mid game team fights last when players only have a couple of items? Not very long in my experience, fights are usually determined by positioning, the poke landed, and the effectiveness of the first round of spell rotations. By the time players have more than 1-2 items and fights start lasting longer than 5 seconds you'll have more than 1 point in W, your early game will have gone better, and you'll have at least one cd item.
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If you are playing soraka to harass to win lane, just pick anyone else, her damage is absolutely awful compared to basically any other support, she literally doesn't have enough mana to harass someone out of lane with Q.
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@sob3k
I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't think you're right in some of your assessment. Her Q has a range of 970 and a diameter of somewhere around 400-500 units. It's very easy to land when the enemy goes to last hit and it's very safe to cast. Unless you're spamming Q every time it's off CD, you shouldn't run OOM when you take 3 points in meditation and buy a flask first item back.
Edit: Because I couldn't find the size of the aoe anywhere I took some screencaps to estimate the size. The total diameter of the circle is at the least 1940 units. I'm not sure if the cast is measured from the edge or the center of Soraka's model. It's likely the middle and we'll go conservative and call it 1940 units. A little less than 3 aoes can be lined up side by side with very little overlap. The gap between the edge and the third aoe you can see in the screenshot is probably less than 140 units.
So on the conservative side I'd estimate the aoe of Soraka's Q and E are about 525 to 575 units in diameter. At max range Soraka's Q has a maximum delay time of 1 second. Humans have an average maximum reaction speed of about .25 seconds and for the sake of argument lets pretend there's no latency. Couple with the fact you try to hit them when they're csing which takes time to auto .75 seconds is about a fair amount of time to give the enemy to dodge. A champ with 350 movespeed can only move 262.5 units in .75 seconds(which is something no ADC actually has, it's always less than 350). So it makes dodging a max range Soraka Q early game nearly impossible.
Here are the images:
http://i.imgur.com/ojgT0Go.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NjdX8Gy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XsKHz3L.jpg
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I honestly think Soraka is the most useless champ in the game at the moment, both in her primary role and in her off-roles. I would even prefer Taric than Raka.
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If you are playing soraka to harass to win lane, just pick anyone else, her damage is absolutely awful compared to basically any other support, she literally doesn't have enough mana to harass someone out of lane with Q.
I partially agree, however I do believe that you can play harrass soraka, but for that you will need defensive masteries to heal up a little bit quicker and have more hp/defenses to play around with
So on the conservative side I'd estimate the aoe of Soraka's Q and E are about 525 to 575 units in diameter. At max range Soraka's Q has a maximum delay time of 1 second. Humans have an average maximum reaction speed of about .25 seconds and for the sake of argument lets pretend there's no latency. Couple with the fact you try to hit them when they're csing which takes time to auto .75 seconds is about a fair amount of time to give the enemy to dodge. A champ with 350 movespeed can only move 262.5 units in .75 seconds(which is something no ADC actually has, it's always less than 350). So it makes dodging a max range Soraka Q early game nearly impossible.
sorry but you try to convince yourself by using just certain things like reaction speed etc. What you dont mention is the short cast animation and that you actually have to be in range, you completly ignore the fact that you arent 1v1 vs the enemy ad carry and that there is a support which wont let you walk up to him. You also ignore that you HAVE to walk up to him to actually do something (you cant just stand in range constantly, you will get harrassed more than you can do to him/his support.
Please dont get that I say that soraka is bad, I think shes decent, and shes a bitch to lane against due to her incredible burst heals, I have played some soraka/urgot and its actually still legit due to the fact that urgot will take harrass dmg and it can be healed up, urgot has slow on his w and his ult so its easier for soraka to hit q/e and not forget urgot gets a ton of armor/mr with ult and items so the heals are even more efficient
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On April 13 2015 13:00 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's a little bit like Viktor's E, pretty decent CC and zone control
No, Viktor is more about zoning and you can easily get out of it (on top of the setup time) with a dash or stuff. Soraka's E is instant and the silence prevents dashes, which is huge either to cockblock stuff (Amumu Qing in will have time to ult before he's stunned, Soraka's E can be used on reaction to prevent the ult and provide time to spread out/gtfo; also see Katarina jumping in, or Zed) or as a follow-up to lock people down.
On April 13 2015 15:32 sob3k wrote:
If you are playing soraka to harass to win lane, just pick anyone else, her damage is absolutely awful compared to basically any other support, she literally doesn't have enough mana to harass someone out of lane with Q.
From high Gold/low Plat experience last season, you can. Sure you need to be consistant with landing it, and it's another thing vs Lucian or Graves who can try to dash to you once you're in Q range to dodge it and force a trade, but you can.
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@Ente
I've done the math out for this in order to counter sob3k's point that it's a hard skillshot to land. It's probably a better counter point than, 'get gud at landin' skillshots scrub.' I don't need to convince myself because I find it very easy to land. By doing the math out I've shown why it's so easy to land consistently. In any event, I agree proper positioning in lane is important. But if a 525 to 575 unit in diameter skillshot with 970 range is unsafe to use. I don't know what is safe.
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On April 13 2015 23:40 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 13:00 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's a little bit like Viktor's E, pretty decent CC and zone control No, Viktor is more about zoning and you can easily get out of it (on top of the setup time) with a dash or stuff. Soraka's E is instant and the silence prevents dashes, which is huge either to cockblock stuff (Amumu Qing in will have time to ult before he's stunned, Soraka's E can be used on reaction to prevent the ult and provide time to spread out/gtfo; also see Katarina jumping in, or Zed) or as a follow-up to lock people down. Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 15:32 sob3k wrote:
If you are playing soraka to harass to win lane, just pick anyone else, her damage is absolutely awful compared to basically any other support, she literally doesn't have enough mana to harass someone out of lane with Q. From high Gold/low Plat experience last season, you can. Sure you need to be consistant with landing it, and it's another thing vs Lucian or Graves who can try to dash to you once you're in Q range to dodge it and force a trade, but you can.
Haha ok fair-- I'll defer to you since you're the Viktor expert. I think that both are good in terms of zone control, though I suppose of Viktor had Soraka's E he would be legit overpowered.
Anecdotal evidence: played a quick casual game... I maxxed Q, harassed like crazy and Vayne/Raka beat Annie/MF lol. I went full tank masteries (0/16/14 iirc) with an AP page. Ended up leaving W at lvl 1 for awhile because I wanted Equinox cdr, because it's such a huge cockblock lol.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1793578014/39690647?tab=overview
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I like throwing a point (MAYBE 2, its situational) into Q during laning phase, but WHY THE HELL would you max Q first? That just makes you awful mid game and doesn't impact late game. You aren't going to win lane maxing Q. You'll just get ganked or jumped on.
Also Ancient Coin is amazing on Soraka, allows for awesome escape plays and you yourself getting away. Guide is a 3/10.
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Adding on, Soraka is one of the best champs for screwing over an enemy jungler (mentioned in GD). Invading and landing Q +auto while the enemy jungler is taking a camp does a huge amount of damage-- sweet spot Q means extra damage, and the slow allows you and the jungle camp extra autos.
Just don't get greedy and chase-- the damage you do is plenty and will probably force the enemy jungler to back without being able to afford anything.
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EPT
