So my question is regarding pushing top lane. I see streams of top laners and some of the times they will be working really hard to freeze the lane, but a lot of the times you'll hear them say they need to keep the lane pushed.
I really don't understand the logic behind pushing so hard for so long. In my mind, the optimal solution is to keep the lane right in front of your tower so that you have the safety as well as the ability to go all in if you're stronger.
A good example is I was watching dyrus play renekton vs crumbz's trundle earlier. He had the tower pushed to trundle's tower and whoever he was duo quing said that nocturne was in thier jungle, and was pinging. He said he needed to keep the lane pushed, and sat at his tower and he even gave up a free assist gold saying "you guys got him right? I need to keep this pushed"
In my mind, why does he want the save versus their tower? If the trundle was agaist HIS tower trying to get cs, renekton should have the advantage because renekton has more room to harass him because he wont be under the tower and he has to take harass for CS. It should be easier to deny him, no?I understand that in bot lane especially you want to push so you're the first group to hit 2 and 6 for going all in, but I dont see the logic that much for top lane
I"m sure he's right because he is, after all, the pro player, but why? Does this matter on what champion you're playing? For example, renekton has a lot of wave AoE waveclear, but I play a lot of jax. How does that effect what you're doing? Renekton can harass a bit a tower, but jax is gonna be punished a bit more imo for trying to harass at tower; still i've seen games where dyrus will push aggressively on jax.
Could someone explain to me the logic behind pressing the lane versus freezing the lane, maybe also how champion effects this decision.
Its too late for me to make any sense of your post but keeping the tower pushed is to apply pressure on your laner and attract the junglers 90% of the time.
If they are shoved to tower they cannot back because you'll take the tower. If they are shoved to tower they'll be losing CS by default and will call for help. If they are pushed to tower the jungler will think "oo a piece of candy" and come for you.
All in all it relieves pressure from the entire map (moreso when a top has TP) because you are just a huge threat and paint a huge target on your own back which (when done correctly.) is immensely helpful to the rest of your team.
1)They dont deal with you, you win lane. 2) Jungler comes, you back off, other lanes can make plays 3)Top lane leaves, you take tower, you win lane.
If you played badly.
4)Jungler comes, you die. 5)Top outplays you and laughs at ur bullshit attempt. 6)Top leaves and returns without you doing anything with the shoved lane (e.g you went back too) 7)Top TP's and kills everyone and you did nothing with the lane.
I was trying to explain to my friend lane control and the other day I saw this video and its really good. The only mistake is probably at 5 minutes, he shouldn't have pushed and should have done what he said to do earlier because when Renekton comes back to lane he will have ~15 minions for free. But the core concept of this video is strong.
In competitive play, it's slightly different. You should always push since you get a lot of early wards in the jungle and know where the jungler is and you need to apply pressure so that your team can have less pressure. If a jungler is forced to go top because you have so much pressure, you get free dragons. This video is really good for solo queue though.
In your example, Dyrus pushed the tower so Trundle couldn't run and assist the Nocturne, or else the Trundle loses the exp/gold from abandoning the lane, and also possibly loses significant amounts of tower health.
This is pretty common. Another example is if your jungler is invading, shove up your lanes and go help your jungler, you're forcing the other laner to make the choice: do I go help my jungler and lose out on this gold/exp or do I just let my jungler fend for himself.
It comes down to denying vs objective control. Are you massively ahead? Freezing the wave can put your opponent very far behind. But if your team is struggling elsewhere, you're usually better off shoving like a maniac and killing his tower ASAP so your team gets the global gold and you can help elsewhere (which should be a boon to your team, if you are stronger than your opponent).
If you're behind, you generally don't want to shove the lane unless you're trying to get as much cs as possible before ducking out of the lane before your opponent comes back.
On October 24 2013 08:32 zer0das wrote: In your example, Dyrus pushed the tower so Trundle couldn't run and assist the Nocturne, or else the Trundle loses the exp/gold from abandoning the lane, and also possibly loses significant amounts of tower health.
This is pretty common. Another example is if your jungler is invading, shove up your lanes and go help your jungler, you're forcing the other laner to make the choice: do I go help my jungler and lose out on this gold/exp or do I just let my jungler fend for himself.
It comes down to denying vs objective control. Are you massively ahead? Freezing the wave can put your opponent very far behind. But if your team is struggling elsewhere, you're usually better off shoving like a maniac and killing his tower ASAP so your team gets the global gold and you can help elsewhere (which should be a boon to your team, if you are stronger than your opponent).
If you're behind, you generally don't want to shove the lane unless you're trying to get as much cs as possible before ducking out of the lane before your opponent comes back.
The nocturne was already dead, the trundle couldnt have saved him if renekton would have disappeared. Renekton could have gone over and got a single q on him for an assist gold. He was saying he had to push from the beginning of the game, so when the game was dead even he was still saying he had to push. in my example, the jungler was dead but still he is at trundle's tower, trying for small amounts of harass and csing at his tower, so he wasnt trying to draw the jungler, he obviously felt he needed to be there for some other reason.
It is really hard to tell where the Nocturne and Dyrus's jungler were based on your description. You kind of make it sound like it was really close, but if they're in the jungle they're probably not that close?
Time is a resource in this game. If Nocturne is a screen away and already going to die, there's no point in walking a screen over trying to get assist gold when you could just be doing tower damage. If their jungler is dead, it's a lot safer time to be whacking away at tower.
It's also probably related to the fact Trundle sucks at dealing with someone pushing hard if he doesn't have a hydra, so it is easy to shove the lane constantly.
On October 24 2013 11:14 zer0das wrote: It is really hard to tell where the Nocturne and Dyrus's jungler were based on your description. You kind of make it sound like it was really close, but if they're in the jungle they're probably not that close?
Time is a resource in this game. If Nocturne is a screen away and already going to die, there's no point in walking a screen over trying to get assist gold when you could just be doing tower damage. If their jungler is dead, it's a lot safer time to be whacking away at tower.
It's also probably related to the fact Trundle sucks at dealing with someone pushing hard if he doesn't have a hydra, so it is easy to shove the lane constantly.
Nocturne went for their red (blue side) and got caught. MId came up with their jungler, and he died around the tribrush.
On October 24 2013 11:14 zer0das wrote: It is really hard to tell where the Nocturne and Dyrus's jungler were based on your description. You kind of make it sound like it was really close, but if they're in the jungle they're probably not that close?
Time is a resource in this game. If Nocturne is a screen away and already going to die, there's no point in walking a screen over trying to get assist gold when you could just be doing tower damage. If their jungler is dead, it's a lot safer time to be whacking away at tower.
It's also probably related to the fact Trundle sucks at dealing with someone pushing hard if he doesn't have a hydra, so it is easy to shove the lane constantly.
Nocturne went for their red (blue side) and got caught. MId came up with their jungler, and he died around the tribrush.
When you get an assist it splits the gold from the kill. Dyrus obviously realised it was not worthwhile for him to walk to tribush and take some of that gold. Overall they come out ahead anyway:
If he stays shoving tower: Dyrus (+gold from creeps), Mid + Jungler (+gold for kill), Trundle (-gold if he tries to assist his jungler)
If he assists the kill Dyrus (+very minimal gold from assist, -loses tower pressure), Mid + Jungler (-less gold for kill), Trundle (+relieve tower pressure, +free cs)
I know what you're saying. Often times I see pros push top when they're way ahead giving their opponents a chance to farm by the tower and catch up. Were it me, I'd have just frozen.
Speaking of "pushing," how many minions can enemy tower clear before the next wave arrives to reset back to the middle? (assuming opponent has b'ed or dicking around elsewhere). I counted too many times enemy tower couldn't kill the last allied minion fast enough and he held back the next enemy wave -.-
EPT
