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On February 01 2013 16:26 Zdrastochye wrote:
I'll be spending tomorrow getting replays of one of my favorite bot lanes for people to see the effectiveness of it. Morde Heimer appears troll at first but it's built on solid poke with free farm for Morde, and involves pushing as hard as possible, so beware teams with devastating gankers.
Teemo/Heimer pls. Shove lane. Wanna last hit under tower? Lol blind.
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FRIDAY TEST AGENDA: 02/01/2013
- General Concepts:
- Pseudo AD Carries
- AP Duo Lanes
- Specific Subjects:
- Support Zilean
- Tryndamere AP Opening
- And more!
Official testing begins at 23:00 GMT (+00:00) provided the servers have not exploded by that time. If you cannot be present by the appointed time then come whenever you can. We'll be testing so long as we have researchers and working servers, so it will continue for many hours and into the night presuming there is interest (and Riot-willing). All testing will be coordinated from the TROLLS chat channel and through TeamLiquid's TeamSpeak.
We will have multiple test groups and/or in-houses depending on the number of people present. As it is unlikely that the number of researchers will be an exact multiple of 5, one or more groups may sortie with unsuspecting pubs.
I will stream all tests that I am a part of at http://www.twitch.tv/montegomerylol.
Details:
Pseudo AD Carries:
We did not have quite as much opportunity to test pseudo-carries last week as I would have liked. Again, we will be testing ranged bruisers (Urgot, Nidalee, Jax, etc.) and/or bruiser-built AD carries (Graves, Draven, Vayne, etc.). Options include but are not limited to the champions listed in parentheticals.
AP Duo Lanes:
I would still like to attempt this idea when it affords an opportunity to counter-counter-pick AD caster/assassin mids (e.g. Talon, Kha'zix), or when we're using a ranged AD carry jungle.
Support Zilean:
Zilean has potential as a support, particularly with a pseudo-carry whose only issue is closing distances. We should test him with champions such as Jayce, Thresh, or even in the AP Duo lanes.
Tryndamere AP Opening:
I've done a few tests on my own, but I'd like to run this through its paces if the opportunity presents itself. I will not, however, do the support build wherein I focus on destroying enemy AD.
Given the dearth of subjects to research we may revisit other topics or entertain new ones as the night goes on.
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GSG Heimerdinger comp? Or similar all-in 10 min inhib comps?
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I think that has to do with enemy picks/bans. They had ez and shen who both cannot push as fast as other adc and top. If they were to get picks that can take top and bot tier 1 towers while you take tier 1 and 2 mid, I don't think you'd be as behind as CJ was.
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I think people should try Cassiopeia + Soraka and/or Karthus + Soraka bot lanes (or alternatively, any other AP + Soraka lanes). I feel that there are some potential there.
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On February 02 2013 10:17 Sufficiency wrote:
I think people should try Cassiopeia + Soraka and/or Karthus + Soraka bot lanes (or alternatively, any other AP + Soraka lanes). I feel that there are some potential there.
Cept you get poked out of lane. I've tried it, you have such a squishy lane, you're begging a Graves Taric lane to fuck you up royally.
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On February 02 2013 10:38 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2013 10:17 Sufficiency wrote:
I think people should try Cassiopeia + Soraka and/or Karthus + Soraka bot lanes (or alternatively, any other AP + Soraka lanes). I feel that there are some potential there. Cept you get poked out of lane. I've tried it, you have such a squishy lane, you're begging a Graves Taric lane to fuck you up royally.
Or a jarvan/draven lane to obliterate you utterly in a few seconds. Soraka has good poke with her silence aa zoneing but the dirty secret about it is that you can just keep walking to her and be in range for whatever your shit does when the silence comes off.
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I'm pretty sure we have to test more of those GSG Heimerdinger comps. The biggest problem is that they RELY on having that blitzcrank to easily steal the buffs.
I think their strategy can be further improved and I also know how we can improved it, but I need time and IEM/São Paulo is taking it all. Next week I'll be able to discuss my ideas.
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How about double doran's shield bot on an aggressive lane, go all in immediately?
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T.R.O.L.L.S. is proud to announce that due to recent upswings in successful grant applications we have acquired sufficient funds to field a dedicated research team. Behold, Research and Development [TL RnD]:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BbnEfvO.png)
Board members have been carefully selected after extensive scrutiny, and rigorous analysis. There remain three openings for additional board members. Titles will be awarded as areas of excellence are determined.
The strategy tested today was AP Duo with an AD carry mid and an optional lane swap. While the lane swap was optional, we determined it was advantageous to swap in every game that was played, save one.
The following champions were used as a part of the test, grouped by role:
AP Duo (Carry): Ryze, Cassiopeia
AP Duo (Support): Soraka, Zyra, Thresh
Mid AD Carry: Caitlyn, Graves, Tristana
Jungler: Mundo, Nautilus, Amumu
1v2 Solo: Cho'gath
Kayle was used as our solo in the sole game where we did not swap.
The results today were one sided; our T.R.O.L.L.S. researchers emerged undefeated after 5 tests of the concept. While there were some hiccups and dire moments, at no point did the teams fielded today despair, and with a positive attitude and cheery camaraderie pulled through every game.
A significant factor in today's victories was the unexpected nature of the strategy. Most opponents did not have a clear concept of how to deal with the lane swap, nor with the quickly accelerated damage presented by the AP duo. Due to this preparation gap and superior champion selection, our 1v2 Solo outfarmed their counterpart significantly in all games involving a swap.
Another significant factor was our choice of AP and AD carries. The use of Ryze and Cassiopeia is no accident, these champions were quickly identified as having the greatest potential without necessarily having solo lane levels. Ryze and Cassiopeia's rapid fire spell casting makes them easily as threatening as an AD carry in teamfights. Meanwhile, Graves, Caitlyn and Tristana have decent pushing power and safety as laners. Solo lane Tristana in particular has a much stronger midgame than duo lane Tristana, while still having her frightening late game. With these picks we did not need to worry overly much about lacking damage.
This allowed us to focus heavily on tanky junglers and 1v2 Solos, and to focus our support on their team synergy. Zyra was used alongside Amumu and Graves to form a frightening AoE composition. Thresh, Cho'gath, and Nautilus made for a strong catch composition and tanky frontline for our carries. In all games the power of our teamfighting was generally much stronger than our opponent's due to the thoroughness with which we discussed and strategized between games.
Out of all of the tests run so far, today's were definitely the most successful. Further testing should be done to refine the concept, but obviously this strategy has a significant amount of potential. My chief concern at the moment is the limited number of champions similar to Ryze and Cassiopeia. While champions like Xerath, Ziggs, Orianna and others have relatively low cooldowns and decent carry potential, none of them can truly match those two spell slingers. Karthus is the closest analog, but is a fairly safe solo lane as it stands, benefits far too much from levels, and lacks somewhat in burst. Coupled with a Zilean Support he might serve the role, but he would definitely require a different approach.
I'll let those involved post their own thoughts, but I believe this concept has the most potential out of any yet tried.
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As Kayle top for one, and jungle naut for 3, I can say having the beefy jungler is a great addition to the team comp. In all our games, the presence of tanky threw off the opposing team to allow our AP and AD to slaughter them. In the few cases where our carries were caught, the ability to peel was a great help.
In my first game of the night, I was top kayle vs an elise. The match up was about as good as you expect. My inability to get an early kill in order to put her on the defensive cost me the lane, and put some pressure on other lanes as she roamed around. However kayle is never really useless no matter what happens. I was able to farm enough to get a Liandry's Torment, then a pair of Iceborn Gauntlets. My ult saved a few team fights, and even turned them around, allowing Ryze to carry the game easily. While her ult and ranged attacks as a semi-tank were very useful. I believe that if our ryze didn't carry hard, my poor start and bad lane phase would have been a severe hindrance. Kayle could work in this comp with the right lane, or better player behind her.
My last 3 games of the night were played as jungle Nautilus. Game 1 was during the Cass/Thresh top with a Cho bot and trist mid. Our top had issues right off the bat as they got themselves double killed to a yorick and our trist unable to really pull ahead of annie. However our individual play and great team fights allowed us to claw our way back in. The tanky front that the jungle provided was a good cover for our ranged carries and this allowed our teams to clean up. The strong hook, stun, and knock up from naut was a perfect compliment to our teams as any of those being landed allowed other forms of CC to hit. During all three games I was mainly allowed to farm the jungle and only needed to show myself in lanes to take some pressure off. I never really needed to gank as each lane was very stable and handled themselves very well. By the time that our opponents decided to swap in order to counter our initial swap it was to late. We had arrived at the mid game and were able to put up a united front. The other 2 games were almost the exact same as the first, save we had ryze as our AP instead of cass.
Over all I liked the tanky-ness and initiation from Nautilus. He fit well with the teams and in the future, if a comp like is tried I would highly recommend having a tanky initiation coming from the jungle in order to support the teams.
One final note, and this is coming from the office of our Chairman, stay out of the 1v2 lane. He gets upset when you feed the opposing Vayne a double kill and double buffs...
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I really liked this comp because I think it has huge potential to shut down Khazix mid, who we've been seeing a lot in pro games recently.
Khazix is very weak and has a poor waveclear pre-6, and relies on an AP champion not being able to work through all his pots before they get blue buff to keep him alive.
AD Tristana can drop heal debuffs on demand, push Khazix to his tower, and kill him with autoattacks. She can play very aggressive and with Flash + Rocket Jump + Barrier + her ult, is safer than most AP mids.
Ryze + Zyra or Thresh I think is great for being able to 2v1 better than most 2v1 lanes. They can't push a tower like an AD Carry can, but all of their burst damage and CC means a bruiser who gets snared or grabbed is going to take a large chunk of damage. Furthermore, while the enemy 1v2 lane is trying to stay alive, Ryze is allowed to get into his late game safely.
Late game it's OK to have a support, jungler and 1v2 laner who are all no damage CC machines, because you've got Tristana and Ryze and they can kill anyone.
Had a lot of fun, and very bummed that the replay bugged on my Tristana quadra kill in the ranked game 
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You guys are fucking brilliant. I love every page of this thread... Carry on  .
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I only caught the last two games (timezone issues etc), but it was a pleasure to watch these games via Monte's stream and pepper him w/questions in the stream chat.
On February 02 2013 13:52 Seuss wrote:
My chief concern at the moment is the limited number of champions similar to Ryze and Cassiopeia. While champions like Xerath, Ziggs, Orianna and others have relatively low cooldowns and decent carry potential, none of them can truly match those two spell slingers. Karthus is the closest analog, but is a fairly safe solo lane as it stands, benefits far too much from levels, and lacks somewhat in burst. Coupled with a Zilean Support he might serve the role, but he would definitely require a different approach.
Well, I suppose swapping out an AP caster for an AD caster just turns it into ye olde kill/dunk lane. Casting (heh) a jaundiced gaze over AP champions, there may be some value to putting Kassadin into a lane like this (protecting his development, more champions in lane to potentially charge up Force Pulse), or Malzahar (potentially helping with his lack of escapes, CC to both set up damage from his skills and voidlings, decent tower-pushing potential if the enemy Cait+Lulu decide to respond to the lane swap by romping towards the nexus). Still, Pirate Ryze seemed to profit from the swap - his initial CS was low compared to the enemy AD, but he made up for it with kills.
If Cho'Gath was banned/taken away, what 1v2 laners would be attempted - Olaf? Galio? Would Gragas' AOE/sustain/escapes give him the toolkit needed*?
Ranked 5s would seem to be a good proving ground for T.R.O.L.L.S. testing wrt/opponents potentially having similar communication tools to yours and thus being able to respond to your laneswaps in a more disciplined fashion.
*huh, I should break out non-AP jungle/top Gragas to see how he's doing w/League of Health; can't remember the interaction between Drunken Rage's damage reduction and penetration.
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Olaf I think is a must ban because our theory is that he can safely 1v2 against the Ryze+Zyra lane. He can wave clear easy with axes and his ult lets him get out of the chain root + burst damage combo. Irelia might be another ban.
Malphite I think would do well. Galio would be ok, not as good as Malphite since he likes being against APs. Jax maybe, though I'd prefer more CC.
We first picked Cho, I think he's fairly integral to the comp. The nice thing about first picking Cho too is it doesn't cement us into doing the comp. If they pick a top or mid laner we can't abuse with this strategy it can turn into jungle Cho and standard play.
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I think it would be interesting to give a massive sustain team out. Not just lane sustain but a comp made up of champs that are really hard to bring down in a teamfight unless focused due to lifesteal/regen. The idea would be to build everyone pretty tanky and make it nearly impossible to bring anyone down without total focus. Any amount of split damage would be totally worthless as everyone outheals it to full. Anyone left alive can easily clean up a fight.
Some combo of like
Akali
Fiddle
Fiora
Master Yi
Morde
Udyr
Vlad
Warwick
Mundo'
Hecarim
Karma
Riven
Swain
Sion
Any Ad works fine with BT and such, ideally you'd run someone tankyish such as Graves or maybe urgot even or even a bruiser? For a support you'd probably want Alistar for his full team heals and disruptive CC to make focusing more difficult, plus his ult making him unburstable himself. Soraka would also have synergy with her full team heal and huge heal and armor bonus keeping whoever was targeted alive.
Shen also has synergy due to ult and also his dagger giving the whole team bonus heal.
We've all played against like a WW or Akali where if you dont burst them they will just clean everything up and be unkillable. What happens if that is literally the whole team?
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United States15536 Posts
TL RnD... brilliant, just brilliant. Can't wait to return for next week. =D
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What about AP Ezreal for a sustained damage AP? 40% CDR Mystic Shots?
Zyra is another option. Could do a Zyra Thresh lane.
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On February 02 2013 15:00 Haasts wrote:
Would Gragas' AOE/sustain/escapes give him the toolkit needed*?
I almost want to just snipe this as part of a different test for TL R&D. 20% flat reduction is 20% flat reduction(and no arpen/magic pen don't effect it, although true damage still ignores it). He would for sure be a nuisance if tanked up, using ult 100% for displacement with no real worries about damage, and he still brings an aspd slow that is pretty reliable. Could jungle Gragas maybe be viable again as well? I haven't tried it in so long(multiple jungle changes), maybe the changes have worked for the better for him.
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On February 02 2013 16:53 Ketara wrote:
What about AP Ezreal for a sustained damage AP? 40% CDR Mystic Shots?
Zyra is another option. Could do a Zyra Thresh lane.
I heavily endorse AP Ez, he is a beast, but is tricky to play well. Also his weakness is his early game and waveclear, both of which are covered by being bot with a support.
I've tried tank gragas and he is really tanky, but he just doesn't do enough and is really ignorable. feels like a poor version of mundo.
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EPT
