Runes: Quints: Movespeed. Reds: I run magic pen. Yellows: Armor Blue: Magic resist per level + Show Spoiler +
feedback needed on this section, i do not have prorunes and generally do not invest my IP in them because I'm poor and like champions. this is what I believe would be a good setup.
Summoner Spells: Ghost/Flash/Clairvoyance/Exhaust/Ignite/honestly whatever you feel like You have escape in the form of W and R trail which is flipping annoying to chase so I don't think Ghost/Flash is at all necessary. In fact, Singed wants to encourage people to chase him because then he can activate imba posion trail damage!
Skill Order I start with a point in E generally but will occasionally throw a point in W if I'm feeling saucy and there's a tight jungle fight going on that is for some reason very tilted in my favor. PLEASE WAIT FOR MINIONS TO GET TO LANE BEFORE CHOOSING SKILL. so in general: E/Q/Q/W/Q/R then R>Q>E>W Although you may hear that W is also good to max before E. Well, I'm greedy. I want imba damage CLUNK.
Items: Here's where you get many choice!
Early Game: Start with either a mana crystal or a doran's shield. The mana crystal will give you health and help you rush rush rush your (1st) catalyst. If you're gearing up for a hard lane get doran's shield by all means.
From here you must build at least one RoA. Works incredibly with his passive and gives him AP. What's not to love? I personally start double catalyst so that I can stay in lane forever and be reckless running around lane with poison on, throwing a squishy back, getting all the creeps and then retreating. Its full health when you level!!!!!!! If I don't think I will be able to finish the second RoA in time for it to be worthwhile (just about never) or think that a banshees would be more appropriate or some other kinda circumstance I'll turn the second catalyst into banshees.
If you're lame get a HoG or 2 at some point in there too. (dumblamenotfunandhilarious)
boots. I get boots 3 because if they're trying to CC you, well, they're wasting CC anyway because you're not going to die. You may also get sorc boots.
Mid to Late Game: Consider getting: Force of Nature! Randuins Abyssal Frozen Heart (i hate this item -_-) Zhonyas (WHATEVER YOU SHOULD BE UNKILLABLE BY THIS POINT ANYWAY) I've seen someone go Archangels because of the ridiculous amount of mana you will have from 2/3/4/5/6 RoA's and that worked out but i have not personally tried it out Rylais (slow tail of death) Any other tank stuff you want
Play Objective 1: get the game into late game where you really kick in Objective 2: throw the ranged DPS Objective 3: use W intelligently. it is such a great skill. don't just toss it in the middle of the fight because you want to spam skills. throw it at someone trying to escape, toss a squishy then toss it where they want to go (people fear the puddle, everyone runs away from the no damage skill) Objective 4: Pop Ult before battles, it lasts so long and it is So. Good. Objective 5: distract while your team does baron. Not a single one of your spells does damage to Baron. of course, also be available in the case of a team fight. You should be running veryveryvery fast with MS quints, FoN, boots, and ulti if you're really in a pinch.
I find Singed to be a pretty boring laner, try not to push your lane with arbitrary poison trail jogs. as with every hero with an inherently really good AoE laning ability....try not to use it. Take a duo lane, you will get zoned if you don't have one. Toss+puddle enemies into tower range. That's about all. More on laning would be helpful if you have anything to say.
Thanks for reading if you read, if you didn't ................... go read. I will update OP with good posts in spoilers and change general guide according to suggestions I can confirm are for the better. Have fun! Singed is one of the most unkillable late game tanks and is incredibly sexy. what else is there to say?
I use pretty much the same runes, opting for flat magic resist instead in glyphs.
I build him pretty similar, start off dorans -> RoA, and then finish treads. I usually get a neg cloak after because this'll put him at about 125~ resist and a similar amount in armor when you ult. At this point of the game you can just tank a ridiculous amount of damage.
As for the item list, I really like banshee's too because you get a ton of hp from it, as well as some needed magic resist.
Singed doesn't really have that good of a laning phase unless you put him with someone that has high burst like Xin, Ryze, etc. Then that lane becomes incredibly easy because the second you fling anyone they're going to die.
I think Singed kicks in around when he finishes his RoA and through the midgame though. Once it's lategame your poison really does minimal damage to anyone with banshee's and if you try to initiate you'll just get kited for all your hp.
Singed doesn't really have that good of a laning phase unless you put him with someone that has high burst like Xin, Ryze, etc. Then that lane becomes incredibly easy because the second you fling anyone they're going to die. [1]
I think Singed kicks in around when he finishes his RoA and through the midgame though. Once it's lategame your poison really does minimal damage to anyone with banshee's and if you try to initiate you'll just get kited for all your hp. [2]
[1] Laning with position-based champs (Garen) is pretty strong as well. I find laning to be 100% about how fast you can get that Catalyst. A tough lane is any lane that stops you from doing that. After Catalyst, you can wander around almost senselessly in most lanes.
[2] Singed late game is all about split-pushing for me. With more and more AoE CC, Singed isn't terribly good in a teamfight because he provides less free kills and protection than someone like Shen. However, if your team can defend or poke 4v5, Singed can be a really unstoppable pain in the ass. Like really, how are you gonna kill him without sending a large part of your team?
You forgot the most important item beside RoA on singed, which is Rylai's imo. It only gets 15% slow on the poison, but that is a big deal when you can usually apply it to their whole team in a team fight.
On November 06 2010 07:23 petered wrote: You forgot the most important item beside RoA on singed, which is Rylai's imo. It only gets 15% slow on the poison, but that is a big deal when you can usually apply it to their whole team in a team fight.
What are you guys running for masteries on him? I typically do 0/21/9 but I've been debating a more utility heavy build (0/15/15 maybe). Also, what are thoughts on expanded mind for him? With your passive it's an extra 12.5 health for every 1k mana you have.
I tried singed but I feel useless late game. With only 1 RoA my poison does insignificant damage, and after I flip someone I just run around like an idiot waiting for flip to come off cooldown again. Even when I'm tanky as hell theres no way I can force them to attack me so I don't really contribute much to team fights.
On November 13 2010 09:24 ZeeMan wrote: I tried singed but I feel useless late game. With only 1 RoA my poison does insignificant damage, and after I flip someone I just run around like an idiot waiting for flip to come off cooldown again. Even when I'm tanky as hell theres no way I can force them to attack me so I don't really contribute much to team fights.
The trick is figuring out how to squeeze more AP into your build, if you can only farm up one RoA and that is your only AP item you won't be hurting much of anything, getting something like an Abyssal Scepter or Rylai's (both if you can) are good and also give you AP to make you more threatening.
On November 13 2010 09:24 ZeeMan wrote: I tried singed but I feel useless late game. With only 1 RoA my poison does insignificant damage, and after I flip someone I just run around like an idiot waiting for flip to come off cooldown again. Even when I'm tanky as hell theres no way I can force them to attack me so I don't really contribute much to team fights.
The trick is figuring out how to squeeze more AP into your build, if you can only farm up one RoA and that is your only AP item you won't be hurting much of anything, getting something like an Abyssal Scepter or Rylai's (both if you can) are good and also give you AP to make you more threatening.
well imo, most carries arent going to have alot of magic rez, so poison will still be doin decent too them(i mean 60/s) off of their like 1500 hp is still kinda hefty, and with insanity up singeds autoattacks cant exactly be taken lightly either..
usually vs most teams since i run armor/magic rez runes ill do managem/dorans boots 1 catalyst/RoA boots 3 Fon (other tanky items here as needed) usually ill take a QSS after FoN just for the extra cleanse(i run ghost cleanse with imp cleanse always)
you'll have alot of hp with just RoA so stats like armor and such are pretty important too imo.
On November 16 2010 03:42 Awesomo wrote: Is singed good at babysitting a carry? He was my first champ, and i remember him being pretty dominant in laning phase.
(I'm having a 5v5 grudgematch with some friends, and need to work out a good team comp.)
How do you play him in laning phase? Once I get my rod, singed feels pretty strong but I've never won a lane where my partner wasn't sona/taric. It just feels like before I get catalyst I'm completely useless.
On November 16 2010 03:42 Awesomo wrote: Is singed good at babysitting a carry? He was my first champ, and i remember him being pretty dominant in laning phase.
(I'm having a 5v5 grudgematch with some friends, and need to work out a good team comp.)
How do you play him in laning phase? Once I get my rod, singed feels pretty strong but I've never won a lane where my partner wasn't sona/taric. It just feels like before I get catalyst I'm completely useless.
I haven't played him in a while, but when i did, i just went for catalyst and then farmed the shit out of the lane, while laughing at people trying to harrass. (this must have been like lvl 10-15, though, my opponents and i weren't that good.)
I'm thinking singed should be able to deny experience and last hits quite effectively. Camping just outside tower range and leaving a wall of poison when they move closer, maybe even flinging one of them to your carry.
On November 16 2010 03:42 Awesomo wrote: Is singed good at babysitting a carry? He was my first champ, and i remember him being pretty dominant in laning phase.
(I'm having a 5v5 grudgematch with some friends, and need to work out a good team comp.)
How do you play him in laning phase? Once I get my rod, singed feels pretty strong but I've never won a lane where my partner wasn't sona/taric. It just feels like before I get catalyst I'm completely useless.
singed just needs any scary lanemate. if they can disable, toss -> poison -> slow is really strong, though of course it chugs through your mana.
Catalyst and sunfire are his best items in my opinion.
Money spent on ap is wasted, his ratios are terrible and his base damage is pretty high. Counting toss you get .4 damage per second per point of ap. By comparison sunfire passive costs about 750 gold. To get 40 dps by spending on ap you would have to burn 2035 gold.
I haven't built rod of ages once on him since I did that math and I don't miss it, the blasting wand third of that item is a waste of money. I would rather buy banshee's and guise
No because Sunfire boosts your Deee peee essss, while you actually want burst, especially during the laning phase. AP doesn´t do as much damage over time as Sunfires but for a first item that isn´t usefull. If you go Catalyst->Sunfire you delay increasing your damage by the whole Cost of sunfires while Rod relativly quickly gives you the staff and the whole item as well faster.
40 DPS ignores that the poison lingers on enemies, AP boosts your Tower dps and is multiplicative with Deathcap.
Sunfires is usefull later in the game when you stand in the middle of 5 enemies. Long term damage is better when the enemy can´t disengage as easily, aka commited Teamfights.
Ok, none of that is true except that catalyst sunfire takes longer to build than catalyst rod of ages. the fact that you even mention deathcap or think that you are still going to be in lane phase after farming up catalyst + sunfire means we are not on the same page
I've mained Singed forever and only really recently started trying out builds that weren't just straight RoA rush. I felt the same as Uni that the gold spent getting that wand + finishing roa could be put to way better use cause I didn't need to do more damage at that point, I just needed to stay alive. At the same time I didn't wanna skip out on damage too much but sunfire is a good solution for both of those.
So I tried catalyst -> giants belt -> sunfire -> banshee's for like 10ish games and it's actually very good. Getting that giants belt instead of a wand is way way more useful at that point. Not only in teamfights but you push waves very quickly as well once you finish your sunfire. Anyone that always rushes RoA should try catalyst -> sunfire at least once.
I'm beginning to think a ROA isnt worth it on singed. The only thing ROA brings to the table is the health mana growth, since i feel ap isnt really worth it on singed: you do more damage just being alive running around like a dick with your poison on, banshee lets you do that much better IMO. Cata>belt>rylais/sunfire>banshee>rylai/sunfire seems much better to me.
When RoA used to net more hp it was worth it and people just always had that RoA so good on singed embedded in their memory. Lot of AP fun to troll with but in a usual game i go cata hog negatron rylais
I´m pretty shure catalysts are unique for that very reason. Double Catas were used on ANYONE during beta if I remember correctly.
AP is valuable for singed because it boosts his burst damage which is his key issue in combination with his kitability (not as easy as with say, Nasus but devistating if it does happen).
The Rod is so popular because it´s the best item for mid-game chases - Towerdives.
On February 22 2011 15:55 Unentschieden wrote: I´m pretty shure catalysts are unique for that very reason. Double Catas were used on ANYONE during beta if I remember correctly.
Umm... Catalyst is most definitely not unique. Unless it was patched in the last like hour or so.
Tried Singed out now that hes in the free rotation and omg hes so much fun, basically all i did was run around all game, +the throw fear factor is great.
I was following this guide over on leaguecraft that states to get a "Tear of the goddess" they've done alot of theroycrafting/math for it, you dont get RoA maxed quite so fast but if your able to spam Adhesive/Fling it works out pretty well.
I don't see why you would ever get Tear on Singed. He can't charge it quickly at all, even at max charge it gives less HP than a Catalyst for only slightly less cost (and doesn't have an imba levelup heal), it doesn't build into anything useful (Rylai's is the only AP item I ever build, personally ... I'd rather turn my Catalyst into a Banshee's), and you never run out of mana anyway once you get Catalyst.
do you remember when they broke cho's vorpal spikes and let them do that? shit was pretty funny, every game there was some retard cho wandering around with sheen, locket and tear of the goddess mashing their 'E' key.
For yellows, I'd say go dodge seals if you can affording it, but flat armor isn't bad either if you don't want to break your bank. The reason I say this is because dodge allows for the nimbleness mastery to proc which could lead to all sorts of funny things like people chasing for miles or you catching up to someone who is attempting to kite you. Anyway, just my two cents.
On March 10 2011 03:17 CLouDPR wrote: For yellows, I'd say go dodge seals if you can affording it, but flat armor isn't bad either if you don't want to break your bank. The reason I say this is because dodge allows for the nimbleness mastery to proc which could lead to all sorts of funny things like people chasing for miles or you catching up to someone who is attempting to kite you. Anyway, just my two cents.
you dont want nimbleness mastery though, that means you dont have strength of spirit maxed which is much more important on singed imo
I personally love the nimbleness mastery, those speed procs are boss. It's definitely situational, but I already have the dodge seals from when I mained Jax so why not.
I think Dyrus uses 21-defense mastery just so that he can get both SoS and Nimbleness. The rest isn't bad on singed either, since he scales quite hard with "taking less damage".
If you are below 1200 ELO here is how to play singed: Teleport Fortify spells. Start with doranshield (first recommended item). Run to bot brush, taking your slow or fling first. If you see a chance, harass your enemy with fling (run behind first so they can't attack after). If you aren't good at the whole right-clicking thing, just throw them in any direction. At level 2, get slow or fling, whichever you didn't get previously. Then at 3 get poison and turn it on. You have teleport so its ok. By now you should have either 3-5 kills or 3-5 deaths depending on who's in the lane. Start buying the recommended items in any order. From here, the singed guides pretty much converge - even at low elo people can press Q and run down lanes.
I used Singed in my last 3 normal games. He is so fun and must make people so mad.
game 1: 9-2-5 game 2: 8-1-7 game 3: 6-1-8
I run flash and ghost. Nothing beats chasing someone who is 1 step ahead of you and flashing in front and keep running so they get more poison. hehe.
Its just so much fun to fling people! He is probably the most brain-dead person to use too. Hit Q, run around, glue or flip when bored. Go to tower, hit R, knock down tower. Rinse and repeat.
I've been playing Singed a lot lately, and my build is somewhat different from the popular guides I've seen (I realize this guide is old too). Haven't made it to ranked play yet though, so not sure how viable this is there.
Runes: Magic Penetration marks, HP/level seals, MP Regen per level glyphs, Speed Quints Masteries: 9/0/21 (I get mana ones over exp- found it to be slightly more useful). Summoner Spells: Teleport/Ghost Skill order-> Typical EQQWQR into R>Q>E>W
Generally for items I go: Boots of Speed/3 health potions Depending on the lane: straight to Boots of Swiftness/Mercury Treads (with a few health pots.... or skip ahead to some regrowth pendants) Regrowth Pendant->Regrowth Pendant->Negatron Cloak-Force of Nature Chain Vest->Giant's Belt->Sunfire Cape
Usually follow it up with:
Rod of Ages Guardian Angel
Then depending on team composition: Banshee's Veil Ryali's Crystal Scepter (only if they have a lot of CC so you can get away a bit easier) Thornmail Frozen Heart Abyssal Scepter
The basic idea is to outlast your opponent in lane- I found going catalyst first is really bad: usually by the time you get it, you level really slowly. It doesn't really give you any sort of noteworthy sustain. However, once Singed has good hp regen due regrowth pendants, he starts running into mana problems... so I sacked magic resist glyphs in favor of mana regen per level- they start kicking in during the midgame. Once insanity potion is reached, the sustain lets you quickly dominate your lane, and you have the extra mana to keep at it.
Once the laning phase ends, this is where my build thrives: you have a insane amount of sustain with force of nature/mana regen per level glyphs, and teleport gives you mobility to take down massive minion waves that tend to build up (tend to get ahead on levels due to this). Or to surprise a low health enemy that is trying to get some exp by bursting out of nowhere and running them into the ground. Damage is much lower than if going AP, but you can stay at the front for much more extended periods of time with the increase health/mana regen. Enemies also tend to think you'll run off after getting damaged heavily, so they'll overcommit against your teammates, and then you just run in and fling them.
I've also found the high regen pretty useful in teamfights. You can control where people are with fling and mega adhesive. If you take too much damage, run away temporarily, then when they stop chasing, come back and wreck people.
Lategame the build suffers a bit due to no magic resist glyphs. If played well, the enemy team can't do an awful lot at this point though, and hopefully someone else on your team can help carry the game to a win if necessary.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Edit: After playing some more, magic resist/level glyphs are far superior. :>
I suppose that's an option that is superior to thornmail in some circumstances. Thing is it is pretty rare that I have to stack armor items- haven't run into many teams that are heavily slanted that way. I'll add that to the list though.
competitive build(solo top) flat hp/5 quints 3 mp/5 seals, the rest whatever u want mpen marks mr/l glyphs
start regrowth philo stone and ward boots mana crystal hog finish catalyst and buy wards merc treads finish rod(situational) wards giants belt rylais core resist item(chain vest/negatron cloak) according to enemy
at this point you should be the most farmed champ in game and u finish force of nature or glacial shroud
finish build by finishing hog if you have gap closers on enemy team, or save hog for gp/10 and build your glacial shroud into fh
I stay away from dodge seals because it doesn't help significantly against AP, and 6.75% dodge is not at all reliable. The extra hp adds up as you start gaining levels, especially since I stack defensive items first and have a lot of health regen with Force of Nature. It isn't uncommon for me to get away while on very low hp. Then run across the map (or teleport there) and wipe out a large minion wave, then fade to another part of the map as the enemy runs to deal with me. Also, not having magic resist glyphs is a pretty big sacrifice. Midgame I almost invariably have to help take down an AP carry (or absorb their spells while my team deals damage). The quick Force of Nature offsets the pain a bit, but the extra hp a bit too.
As for mana- I don't run into significant issues unless I haven't gone back to base in a long time, but that is usually the case- midgame I'm ganking, wrecking minion waves, and engaging in team fights a lot. The mobility that the quick boots/Force of Nature gives you in conjunction with teleport lets you be in the enemy's face practically everywhere if you want to be. A starting Philosopher's stone is an interesting idea, but would delay Force of Nature a lot, which is the difference between 18 hp/5 and ~45 hp/5 and a slightly slower speed. I think having it come after Force of Nature would increase sustainability, at the cost of a later Sunfire Cape and Rod of Ages... not sure if it would be worth it. Maybe if I swap out the glyphs for magic resist ones. I don't think Eleisa's Miracle is a great item for its cost though(no defensive stats or mana except tenacity.. Mercury Treads does that- suppose it gives the option of having tenacity and Boots of Swiftness, at the cost of a more expensive item down the line), so Philospher's Stone is a bit of a dead end. Radiun's Omen doesn't particularly synergize well with Singed either, so Heart of Gold is a bit of a dead end too.
Who says you have to keep the philosophers stone until game-end? Current meta is running some kind of mega-sustainable top laner, so you need to be able to at least contest cs and lane control as Singed. This is why opening regrowth-philo is fine with regards to item slots and end game progression. You can always sell the excess g/10 items once you've mathematically determined a profit has been made.
Only takes 13 minutes and ~30 seconds for philo to pay for itself, assuming you sell it. Fast catalyst still better imo, which is why I'll open mana crystal in lanes that are easy to harass, boots in hard lanes.
singed is my best champ. rushing philo boots cata and getting either mercs or tabi. swiftness are ok too but if you like more MS then your better with tabi+dodge seals+nimbleness. massing dodge is a good strategy against champions like: warwick, vayne, corki etc.
as singed you dont win alot of lanes early game, so philo along with cat gets your big items faster IMO. Roa is the single best upgrade for cat if your good with math and I dont like delaying FoN with rilays after cat how many players do. after philo, mercs roa you get ofc FoN and then an armor item. Sunfire is ok but I like frozen heart much much more because it makes you way more disruptive with the cdr and the aura while you get a fuckton of armor, mana and even a bit health from it (passive). Also its again a good counter to alot of champs that rely on attackspeed (vayne, ww etc) and mandreds in general. Also thornmail should not be bad on singed but I mostly dont buy it. After the armor item it really depends but most of time getting a rilay is a good option. Abyssmal or any kind of tank item works too if you need it.
and philo is by no means a dead end. In 99% of the games you will not come to the stage where you need that 6th slot and if so, then philo payed for itself 3 times so selling it wont hurt at all. Even if you safe up for a ward slot.
I ran into a situation where I needed a lot more mana regen in a pinch because the center lane collapsed really quickly due to a terrible Caitlyn and I had to use my poison and fling constantly to hold it when side lanes started ganking. Mana manipulator seems like a better choice than Philospher's Stone as a quick followup to Force of Nature. It doesn't cost nearly as much and gives more mana regen, so in a pinch it is a lot more useful.
I've been having a blast with Singed in the top lane (~1540 atm, not pro by any means)). Pretty much demanding the solo as I've been able to shut down a lot of people hard (Jax, Akali, Jarvan, Panth recently). I run 0/22/8 with flash/ghost. Some might say the flash is a waste but it works really well with an initiating fling. If we need exhaust or ignite though I will swap out.
Flat HP quints Dodge yellows MR pen reds Flat MR blues
Usually start Boots/pots but I do Regrowth/pot or Sapphire/pots now and then. Philo Stone on first buy unless I feel the need to grab Tabi right away. With Tabi alone, I'll end the game with ~110 AR (plus the ult) which is a fair amount when combined with the 19% dodge (important to take the dodge move speed mastery). Still, if the other team is AD heavy, I might pick up an HoG after Philo otherwise I work towards a catalyst (Sapphire first).
To make up for the lack of Merc Treads, Philo Stone becomes Eleisa's at any point I feel I need for CC reduction but that's usually later on. Can make it Shurelya's otherwise (again, late game). Eleisia's plus the ult has been enough for me to not buy QSS in a while.
After hitting 6, you can usually start being a bully and that's even more true once you get catalyst. I find using his ult anytime it's off CD is worth it unless my flash/ghost are down (save the ult to escape a gank at that point). The only thing that really slows me down is a good jungler so keep river warded.
RoA is first big item. I think that's a no-brainer for the most part.
Negatron cloak next which will become FoN asap unless I start with an HoG in which case I'll work towards Randuin's before completing FoN. I find the movement speed bonus to be the main reason why I take FoN over Banshee's Veil.
At that point, it really depends on how the game is going.
MR: Abyssal is a good pickup.
AR: With Randuin's and the dodge set-up, it's usually enough. Not sure why zerodas is saying Randuin doesn't synergize particularly well when it offers two ways of slowing enemies that you're trying to flee from or fling. If for some reason you still need more AR, Frozen Heart for sure ( > Sunfire).
Close it off with Rylai's.
Warmog's or Deathcap or Void Staff for giggles. I hardly ever get to this point though.
I don't get RoA as first item, but guess that's just me. And why would you get rylai's as last item? Seeing as you don't stack AP at all, it seems to be better just getting it after your catalyst+philo+whatever.
On August 12 2011 02:40 Sponkz wrote: I don't get RoA as first item, but guess that's just me. And why would you get rylai's as last item? Seeing as you don't stack AP at all, it seems to be better just getting it after your catalyst+philo+whatever.
I usually end up as the main tank so I try not to focus too much on AP but rather AR/MR which is why Rylai's comes at earliest after FoN. The exception might be we already have a tank and/or we lack AP damage but that has rarely been the case.
I could see why you might take Rylai's earlier on as it's a wicked item on Singed (moreso for the slow imo). But the difference in AP to RoA is negligible (become even after 10 minutes) and they cost about the same but you already have 40% of the cost covered with Catalyst (which could make up a good chunk of that 10 minutes already). I just think leaving catalyst undeveloped for the time it takes you to complete a Rylai's is a bit of a waste. And then you might not even have enough time to fully level RoA after Rylai's/tank items depending on how the game's going. Maybe if the catalyst bonus didn't carry on to RoA (like in the past), then I would see it as a more viable route to go.
On August 12 2011 02:58 Sponkz wrote: Well catalyst -> rylai -> Banshee -> whatever is just so good imo.
Didn't see you mention Banshee at all ;p. That changes a lot since you might not need FoN for a little while after that. And I don't see how your approach 'stacks AP' noticeably more than the RoA start.
Seems totally viable though but I still believe that RoA is a top notch first item.
Last night I played with a Singed who used the cookie cutter RoA/FoN build and it cost us the game because he thought he was tanky to initiate for us. Problem for him was that the opposing team had Cait/Ashe/Kat and he was getting mres items. He ended up getting blown up every fight in two seconds, and the poor sap kept wondering why he was dying so fast.
In any case, moral of the story: RoA -> armor or mres item depending on opposing team's makeup or hard carry.
Kat's abilities are all magic based, unless she was sitting around meleeing. But yeah, ranged carries shred Singed to some degree, if they're not dumb. Why I prefer to get Rod of Ages later- easier to survive against a balanced team, doesn't hurt damage too terribly much.
On August 12 2011 02:58 Sponkz wrote: Well catalyst -> rylai -> Banshee -> whatever is just so good imo.
Didn't see you mention Banshee at all ;p. That changes a lot since you might not need FoN for a little while after that. And I don't see how your approach 'stacks AP' noticeably more than the RoA start.
Seems totally viable though but I still believe that RoA is a top notch first item.
RoA just doesn't supply you with anything but health as a useful stat (well mana is good but only because it gives you HP). You would be better off saving your catalyst for a banshee's after finishing rylai's which provides your Q with a 15% slow. That's hurtful to the carries in early team fights.
On August 12 2011 02:58 Sponkz wrote: Well catalyst -> rylai -> Banshee -> whatever is just so good imo.
Didn't see you mention Banshee at all ;p. That changes a lot since you might not need FoN for a little while after that. And I don't see how your approach 'stacks AP' noticeably more than the RoA start.
Seems totally viable though but I still believe that RoA is a top notch first item.
RoA just doesn't supply you with anything but health as a useful stat (well mana is good but only because it gives you HP). You would be better off saving your catalyst for a banshee's after finishing rylai's which provides your Q with a 15% slow. That's hurtful to the carries in early team fights.
I find roa, fon allways a better buildup than rilay banshees because:
- you get more MS - you get more MR - you get faster MR - Spellblock is bad on most bruisers/tanks - the additional regen synergizes well with singed - RoA is aside from rageblade the most costefficient item excluding snowball items (both rilay and banshees are not that costefficient) - Singed gets more stats from RoA because of his passive - FoN is the most costefficient tank item (excluding the healthregen. This is a bonus.) - RoA should be gotten early while Rilay can be bought at any time.
the slow on rilay is nice but much more situational than straightup MS. Banshees is good on ranged/squishy champs that get into fights after the initiation. Singed is a straightup bruiser/tank and the banshee shield will block some shitty spell 99% of the time and not something usefull. Also any kind of sustained magical damage dealer, may it be amumu/malz/brand/ryze/cassio etc laughs at banshees but cries if you have a FoN. Especially if they have magical % damage.
The faster MR is also very important because you often need it ASAP before deathcaps finish which you will less likely with the cata rilay banshee opening.
Theres also this: It doesnt matter when you get rilays. You can get it after FoN or after your first armor item. In the other hand you shouldnt get a late RoA. If you have a build with 5-6 items with roa then it will be likely better rounded than a build without it.
If you argue that the slow is higher on rilays than the speed on FoN ok. But you allready have the strongest AoE slow in the game. The additional MS lets you catch ppl with fling way better, lets you juke easyer if your opponents can avoid the poison, lets you push more aggressively because your mobile.
The only viable point to make is that alot of singed's tankyness comes from his insane regen during his ultimate and when you get FoN your easyer "countered" by ignite. Well if they have to use ignite on you then your carries will applaud. A good opponent will also only ignite you if he knows he (no actually "they") can kill you with it + its worth it. That means you overextended 1v5 or your whole team is dead.
-> my conclusion is that roa+fon is overall better for singed and I think the cata+rilay into banshees opening comes from some patches ago where Roa didnt have the regeneration on level up so you actually hurt your laneing if you rushed it. Now since it retains the insane laneing sustain of cata I would never upgrade this into banshees on singed.
K so I laned Singed and his ally with my ally pretty hard last night, killed singed like 4x and the other person 2x, ended up 6-0 or some bullshit. Ended up losing the game because Singed later still became one of their highest level/unkillable because he stacked MR (I was Brand) + had a lot of HP.
what the fuck, am i missing something? Shouldn't someone who goes 0-4 in the early-mid game be pretty fucking weak?
I watched dyrus play singed on the EU servers yesterday. He plays him very well and is super active with him. I defintely recommend to watch him. The most important skill on singed is definitely map awareness (which is always important but on singed its kinda the main aspect). Like: you dont play singed on the main screen but on the minimap.
On the discussion which was like "hurrdurr singed needs armor/mres asao so quick roa is bad hurrdurr" on the last page.
Your ult. Gives. Armor. And. Mres.
That's why you can rush RoA and delay "real" tank items. Slightly similar to Cho who is a tanky bitch cause of the HP pool from his ult and can delay "real" tank items because of that.
Don't fail your ult (it has long enough duration anyway) and RoA becomes the best possible first big item.
Edit: Unless, I'm obviously with Dyrus here, RoA MIGHT be bad against e.g. a fed vayne who will crush through your HP pool regardless. That's a reason to not stack health but regen/resists instead.
On August 15 2011 05:56 r.Evo wrote: On the discussion which was like "hurrdurr singed needs armor/mres asao so quick roa is bad hurrdurr" on the last page.
Your ult. Gives. Armor. And. Mres.
That's why you can rush RoA and delay "real" tank items. Slightly similar to Cho who is a tanky bitch cause of the HP pool from his ult and can delay "real" tank items because of that.
Don't fail your ult (it has long enough duration anyway) and RoA becomes the best possible first big item.
Edit: Unless, I'm obviously with Dyrus here, RoA MIGHT be bad against e.g. a fed vayne who will crush through your HP pool regardless. That's a reason to not stack health but regen/resists instead.
Iam thinking about running tele+revieve on singed now, since I read the reasoning about zombie karth on dyrus' guide (solomid.net) about it.
the main downside would be not having ghost which I find disturbing. currently I run ghost+ignite and ghost+teleport most of the times. I think the lategame presence with revieve teleport would be amazing since you can overextend 2 times. The only way to die as singed is eating ignite+some ults lategame, thus revieve sounds really fucking strong.
What do others think of this idea? Is revieve 100% bound to teleport at all? is the idea viable?
I think I would run 0/9/21 then instead of 0/21/9 with improved revieve and tele ofc.
The bad thing about TP/Revive is that you have zero access to your summoner skills until you die AND if your team is continuing to fight. If you have Revive mastery spec'ed, the speed boost can offset your lack of Ghost.
Any time you have your TP down, you have to play rather passively. You have no Ghost or Flash to escape ganks. And if you die with your TP down, Revive is somewhat moot.
On September 01 2011 01:19 NeoIllusions wrote: The bad thing about TP/Revive is that you have zero access to your summoner skills until you die AND if your team is continuing to fight. If you have Revive mastery spec'ed, the speed boost can offset your lack of Ghost.
Any time you have your TP down, you have to play rather passively. You have no Ghost or Flash to escape ganks. And if you die with your TP down, Revive is somewhat moot.
Thats what I clearly felt when I tried it the first time. The combo certainly needs some experience. The other problem is to sync singed's ult with it. When would I actually activate it? before or after the revieve? So far I'am leaning towards "before" because I would have +MS and +HP when using revieve anyways. And as I said, when I died during an ult then I certainly baited at least 1-2 ults and mb 1 ignite with him allready.
I run tele/ghost on Singed in all my games. Since I'm constantly farming on Singed, I use teleport so I can quickly get to my team, especially if they are across the map, when I see a skirmish.
Personally, I'd only use revive on champs that can clean up and have globals. I just don't think Singed is a champ that can clean house after the initial skirmish. Revive was strong for Panth and TF before their global nerfs.
On September 01 2011 01:34 broz0rs wrote: I run tele/ghost on Singed in all my games. Since I'm constantly farming on Singed, I use teleport so I can quickly get to my team, especially if they are across the map, when I see a skirmish.
Personally, I'd only use revive on champs that can clean up and have globals. I just don't think Singed is a champ that can clean house after the initial skirmish. Revive was strong for Panth and TF before their global nerfs.
This.
I strongly feel that having a built in global of some sort is vital for running a successful TP/Revive build. I didn't mention this before.
It just gives you much more flexibility with your TP.
If you use that reasoning then it would be bad on karthus too, since he can use his global anyways. TF and panth free up teleport when their ults are up but karth not. However karth is apparently a big candidate for this combo and there are a couple very high rated players who do this. Yes you can cleanup a fight better with karth than with singed but singed is completely different anyway so..
The profit on running it on singed would be super aggressive pushing and eating as many ults as possible while wearing them down with poison. Well basicly the same as without those summoners but you will do it 2 times in a row and I dont see how you would kill singed 2 times in a row without completely overextending on him.
Just thinking about how to react on a tele revieve singed gives me the creeps. He can clear waves super fast + your jungle when he is waiting for his wave to tank your turret. Normaly you would gank him when he overextends like this but with revieve up and a ready team then it would be very hard to calculate.
On September 01 2011 02:17 clickrush wrote: If you use that reasoning then it would be bad on karthus too, since he can use his global anyways. TF and panth free up teleport when their ults are up but karth not. However karth is apparently a big candidate for this combo and there are a couple very high rated players who do this. Yes you can cleanup a fight better with karth than with singed but singed is completely different anyway so..
The profit on running it on singed would be super aggressive pushing and eating as many ults as possible while wearing them down with poison. Well basicly the same as without those summoners but you will do it 2 times in a row and I dont see how you would kill singed 2 times in a row without completely overextending on him.
Just thinking about how to react on a tele revieve singed gives me the creeps. He can clear waves super fast + your jungle when he is waiting for his wave to tank your turret. Normaly you would gank him when he overextends like this but with revieve up and a ready team then it would be very hard to calculate.
Dunno have to try it more. Thx for the advice.
because when you teleport revive back in, you won't have your ulti. which means you're just going to feed them that extra +1 kill. you do a hell of a lot less dps than what a karthus would do plus the utility that karthus offers after death is just too good.
So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
On September 16 2011 01:28 Zenithal wrote: So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
I always see people in game asking what spec the Singed is and I never really understood it. The only Singed is tank Singed.
On September 16 2011 01:28 Zenithal wrote: So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
I always see people in game asking what spec the Singed is and I never really understood it. The only Singed is tank Singed.
He can be a fake tank because of his ult. You can go RoA/Rylais/Hextech and do some work especially if you're ahead. Not to mention, it's fucking hilarious and fun.
On September 16 2011 01:28 Zenithal wrote: So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
I always see people in game asking what spec the Singed is and I never really understood it. The only Singed is tank Singed.
On September 16 2011 01:28 Zenithal wrote: So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
I always see people in game asking what spec the Singed is and I never really understood it. The only Singed is tank Singed.
You've never played fastest singed? please.
Why would you do that when you could play fastest Soraka? Shit.
Seriously though, why am I seeing Singed bans after this patch? I rarely play ranked but I've never had a problem picking him until recently. I love his little range buff, but it hardly seems ban-worthy.
LOL ok I'm buying this champ. I kill people while running around like a retard and shitting out poison gas? My ulti makes me basically unkillable? I get to troll hardcore by throwing people everywhere? It's basically the most annoyingly effective champ in the game.
So I've been going Ninja Tabi on him, since my first defensive buy is FoN, so I figure it's a good balance of Armor and MR. Better to go Merc's anyway for the tenacity?
On September 16 2011 01:28 Zenithal wrote: So I've been trying this guy out in AI games, really fun. I need a Tank character, and I know Singed is technically a "fighter" or "bruiser", but could I use him as a tank for games where we lack an initiator and tough unit?
I always see people in game asking what spec the Singed is and I never really understood it. The only Singed is tank Singed.
You've never played fastest singed? please.
Why would you do that when you could play fastest Soraka? Shit.
Seriously though, why am I seeing Singed bans after this patch? I rarely play ranked but I've never had a problem picking him until recently. I love his little range buff, but it hardly seems ban-worthy.
He has been really fucking strong since his last ult buff, I think these small buffs just made people more aware.
On September 16 2011 08:56 Craton wrote: hsgg raged about singed and declared him a must ban on stream
lol he played a game as Singed and went something like 1-7.
he's just trolling his followers so they can spam LoL boards with OP complaints. that dude is so salty his mains got nerfed so he's attempting to target champs that he doesn't personally like.
Singed is OP vs. Melee. He's broken because most people are too stupid to lane a teemo vs. him. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Any time there is a seemingly unsolvable problem in the LoL Metagame, the solution is Teemo.
On September 17 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote: Singed is OP vs. Melee. He's broken because most people are too stupid to lane a teemo vs. him. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Any time there is a seemingly unsolvable problem in the LoL Metagame, the solution is Teemo.
On September 17 2011 03:30 Mogwai wrote: Then the metagame is already solved. That was probably the golden age of LoL when Teemo was seriously the champ that everyone was most afraid of.
You say it like its funny but when that thing gets going hes like a hyperactive rabies hamster on crack,ai not funny at all-_-. Edit:A Maokai that is trying to get away from a Teemo is the most saddest thing in the world btw.
On September 17 2011 03:30 Mogwai wrote: Then the metagame is already solved. That was probably the golden age of LoL when Teemo was seriously the champ that everyone was most afraid of.
You say it like its funny but when that thing gets going hes like a hyperactive rabies hamster on crack,ai not funny at all-_-.
I mean, I'm not really joking. When rainman hit #1 on the ladder and Teemo was a top ban, we probably saw the most diverse set of champions being played.
Teemo might've been a little too strong back then, but still, his kit is such that when he's too strong, it's still managable because he's still killable and he doesn't kill your whole team in one skill rotation. He's the healthiest type of character to be too strong.
I think the EU meta has skewed the perception of how strong a lot of heroes in the game are. Most of the currently "OP" solo top heroes get dominated by a strong ranged hero like Caitlyn or Teemo. Another example: I think Vayne would be considered MUCH better than she is now if AD carries still soloed.
On September 17 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote: Singed is OP vs. Melee. He's broken because most people are too stupid to lane a teemo vs. him. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Any time there is a seemingly unsolvable problem in the LoL Metagame, the solution is Teemo.
This so, so hard. Any time I see the other team get someone like singed udyr or garen, call top and lock in teemo. Laugh all the way to the elo bank.
Looking to pick up singed though, but I don't have movespeed or dodge runes, wondering how hard that will hurt him.
On September 17 2011 03:58 arnath wrote: I think the EU meta has skewed the perception of how strong a lot of heroes in the game are. Most of the currently "OP" solo top heroes get dominated by a strong ranged hero like Caitlyn or Teemo. Another example: I think Vayne would be considered MUCH better than she is now if AD carries still soloed.
Yeah, Cait can rape a lot of them, too. The problem is you always want a support for warding and CV -- the rest of the team will run out of item slots lategame to even hold a ward. Support + range ad usually beat support + something else. There are exceptions, but these often rely on having a weak ad like ashe bot. Further, most junglers are AD. Currently, AD junglers are largely stronger than the few tank junglers, who generally struggle against counter-jungling and have very set paths.
Running a ranged AD top might win the lane, but it makes your bot lane weak, so they might lose that lane (and a losing bot lane gives the enemy team stronger dragon control). Further, it means you probably have 3 AD on your team and it's very easy to itemize against AD.
I would love to see what more ap junglers would do to the meta (yes, I'm aware of the "but how to balance that vs blue dependency and healing").
Putting Vayne top is strong, but Vayne isn`t exactly the hardest champion in the game to gank.
People like singed go top not beacuse they`ll necessarily dominate that lane, but it`s also because singed can put a ridiculous amount of lane pressure, one on the count that he can push the lane very hard, and another on the count that a very farmed singed will just be unkillable and force you to give up towers or objectives just to deal with him.
What about jungle singed, philo stone -> gunblade? had dan dinh do this to me in a game the other day and it seemed quite effective.. though it could have just been trolling(since im bad)
also, am i one of the few who likes the catalyst -> swifties -> fon for mega fast singed?
whats this tabi/miracle singed use for runes? ms/dodge?
Why would you put a farm dependent hero that has no problems soloing in the jungle? He wouldn't really even have especially effective ganks.
Boots of Swiftness are almost never worth it. If you want to move faster, just get Tabi + Nimbleness + Dodge runes (and you should probably be running the last two anyways on Singed).
Idk about all this meta talk but when i solo top as singed the champ I have the most trouble with over any other is zilean. Not sure he belongs top but he completely shuts me down every time.
On September 17 2011 11:18 Azerbaijan wrote: Idk about all this meta talk but when i solo top as singed the champ I have the most trouble with over any other is zilean. Not sure he belongs top but he completely shuts me down every time.
That's because Zilean is an annoying fucker. One of the few that makes everyone tear out their hear in rage. He dominates a lot of characters in lane, which is why he gets banned so much.
On September 17 2011 08:18 arnath wrote: Why would you put a farm dependent hero that has no problems soloing in the jungle? He wouldn't really even have especially effective ganks.
Boots of Swiftness are almost never worth it. If you want to move faster, just get Tabi + Nimbleness + Dodge runes (and you should probably be running the last two anyways on Singed).
wut, swifties are bread and butter for singed, makes split pushing so much easier
helps him split push how...? You can run away faster? I'd rather just run away at a normal speed and live because I have better boots. It doesn't make you any better at clearing the lane, you already run down a lane more quickly than the creeps spawn. Awful in teamfights. Diminishing returns with his ult. Fuck swifties
Seriously, boots of swiftness are almost never worth the money. Tabis are VASTLY more cost efficient and with nimbleness you get good move speed anyways.
On September 17 2011 12:41 barbsq wrote: wut, swifties are bread and butter for singed, makes split pushing so much easier
Using that logic Swifties would be core for Nidalee too.
Tank 6 creeps->dodge proc is a bigger movespeed boost than Swifties. Still better off with Mercs or Dodge boots.
Nidalee is fast moving across the map without swifties though. Singed doesn't have that bit.
If all you want is map mobility, then what does Swifties give you over Boots 5 (which Singed doesn't need anyway with a long-CD MS boost, and ghost/TP being reasonable and common summoner spells on him)? If you want an MS boost that stays useful in fights, then Dodge Boots + Nimbleness gives you a bigger MS boost, also gives dodge and armor, and are noticeably cheaper.
Swifties is pretty much only good on a subset of heroes that absolutely need the in-fight mobility, but don't have the luxury of being able to put themselves in situations where they'd get Nimbleness procs (e.g. Anivia).
It is not even that rare to have 3 autoattackers in your enemy lineup. such as ad carry bottom, then nocturne jungle and letz say jax top. I use tabi much more often now. Also been switching from FoN to QSS lately when needed and especially if I get tabi instead of mercs.
I've also been running tabi a lot lately, for basically the same reason everyone's saying. Enemies top tend to be doing mostly physical damage, and there's usually several enemies who will be auto attacking in game. Also since you probably speced nimbleness dodging attacks just lets you run even faster.
i dont really believe in defensive boots for practically straight tank champs like singed. in the grand scheme of things tabi or mercs aren't really going to provide that much defense, and singed doesnt ever really leave top until he's farmed like 4k gold
So get sorc boots if you aren't interested in defensive stats for some arbitrary reason. They fucking murder people on singed, magic pen is really really good on him.
I'm lvl ~15 summoner, singed has been my main for about 20-25 matches.
Q1: I feel like I've very overaggressive in early laning (lvls pre-6). I feel like I know that I should just be sitting back and helping with positioning (scare enemies from farming, etc) but I just get too eager to do something, and over commit. What is your general goal or outlook on the first couple levels? Keep in mind that i'm usually w/ another melee partner in top/bottom (everyone goes 2/1/2 in my lvl range).
Q2: When I don't fuck up the first couple levels and feed my opponents, we usually tend to push them up to their turret and soft-contain them. What should my goal be at that point? Especially in a lane w/ 2 ranged attackers, they're usually content to sit there and just farm. I can't push in and farm myself (fight line usually on precipice of their turret). If I get a good chance I'll go for the fling/poison. I'm often winning lanes by a couple kills, but I'm not creating much of a margin against my enemies. Close cs, usually 1 level lead. My current thought is to accept that I can't stop their farming, and look to either pressure a different lane or get in a quick jungle for extra $$$, then re-engage the lane when it's in mid or closer to my tower.
Q3: Anyone have little tips that they picked up while they were developing their Singed play? I'm trying to practice better habits, like finding more efficient paths to poison creep crowds, when/when not to fling if i'm expecting a big team battle, etc.
On September 18 2011 13:06 Prinate wrote: Questions for experienced singed players:
I'm lvl ~15 summoner, singed has been my main for about 20-25 matches.
Q1: I feel like I've very overaggressive in early laning (lvls pre-6). I feel like I know that I should just be sitting back and helping with positioning (scare enemies from farming, etc) but I just get too eager to do something, and over commit. What is your general goal or outlook on the first couple levels? Keep in mind that i'm usually w/ another melee partner in top/bottom (everyone goes 2/1/2 in my lvl range).
carry teleport and ghost, it's your job to outfarm top and force the jungler to gank you. This makes the game easier for your mid and bot.
On September 18 2011 13:06 Prinate wrote: Q2: When I don't fuck up the first couple levels and feed my opponents, we usually tend to push them up to their turret and soft-contain them. What should my goal be at that point? Especially in a lane w/ 2 ranged attackers, they're usually content to sit there and just farm. I can't push in and farm myself (fight line usually on precipice of their turret). If I get a good chance I'll go for the fling/poison. I'm often winning lanes by a couple kills, but I'm not creating much of a margin against my enemies. Close cs, usually 1 level lead. My current thought is to accept that I can't stop their farming, and look to either pressure a different lane or get in a quick jungle for extra $$$, then re-engage the lane when it's in mid or closer to my tower.
ward to prevent ganks, then try denying, but if youre unable to then just push the wave and hope for creeps killed by their tower
On September 18 2011 13:06 Prinate wrote: Q3: Anyone have little tips that they picked up while they were developing their Singed play? I'm trying to practice better habits, like finding more efficient paths to poison creep crowds, when/when not to fling if i'm expecting a big team battle, etc. Thanks in advance.
click poison once and wait for ticks to end then start again. your job is to control the scrimmage line, not the actual wave. i suggest starting poison on back creeps first so the front ones dont get lost to allied minion atk
it seems like teleport/ flash or ghost nasus is a really strong pick against singed. nasus is pretty much unkillable too, can push down a tower really fast, and free farm q helps nasus a lot more than singed. i think its possible to take mr runes and defensive masteries and just tank the poison/fling while lifestealing on creep so being melee isn't too bad.
It's not THAT bad, because singed can fling/poison nasus off your carries. You're tankier than him, so yeah. I still wouldn't pick singed vs nasus though.
On September 18 2011 15:26 geometryb wrote: it seems like teleport/ flash or ghost nasus is a really strong pick against singed. nasus is pretty much unkillable too, can push down a tower really fast, and free farm q helps nasus a lot more than singed. i think its possible to take mr runes and defensive masteries and just tank the poison/fling while lifestealing on creep so being melee isn't too bad.
I actually love to play against nasus and any other opponent that is not able to push as fast as singed is. The early levels consist of both sides lasthitting. Nasus doesnt want to start trades with singed because he'll lose more farm and probably also health in the process, since singed doesn't have to deal physical damage and can fling nasus into his creeps. You can also spice it up a bit and fling him when he charges for a lasthit. Generally he has to decide wether to harass back while tanking minions and losing lasthits or to leave you farming. Early ganks can be dangerous though because of the sheer strength of wither. But since your minions are attacking nasus alot, because you fling him your lane will be pushed towards your turret early on until you have 6 and your core items.
As soon as singed has his catalyst, boots and maybe philo it is impossible for nasus to counterpush him. Ofc when nasus has teleport too then you cannot deny much of his farm by trading with him but you can certainly push him into his turret 24/7 and go jungling. It is similar to facing warwick by then, who is also a very slow pusher compared to singed. So forcing ganks by aggressively pushing and counterjungling is actually alot easyer against those kind of opponents. From my point of view there are only 2 really dangerous lane types: 1. straight up bullies who can poke alot like akali, mb other ap champs and 2. champs that can push very fast and have some kind of sustain like chogath.
edit:
Also in a teleport vs teleport situation the one has an advantage who can push faster, since you dont have to waste it for going into your lane (you can push it before you B) and you lose less farm if you are helping out with it.
On September 18 2011 08:39 UniversalSnip wrote: So get sorc boots if you aren't interested in defensive stats for some arbitrary reason. They fucking murder people on singed, magic pen is really really good on him.
o.O; really?
Swifties are my "ideal" boots for singed. Fastest singed best singed obviously. Unless I feel I need defensive boots for my lane, I will get swifties.
Ninja boots if your lane opp does loads of phys damage or likes to auto attack, (talon, trynd, etc). Merc treads if lane opponent going to be dealing lotsa magic damage and/or has a lot of CC, (rumble or something, I dunno, I don't run mercs too often anymore)
Never considered sorc boots though, do you really find them worth it?
I would only consider sorcs if you plan on building wota at some point. roa, rilays, wota is farmable and strong on singed if you are the most farmed guy in the game. Not a fan of sorcs in general though. Both tabi and mercs give you too much. swiftness' only application is better chasing/initiation with fling, aside from that they are subpar compared to the other boot options even in terms of mobility. I've built swifties alot so iam not pulling this off my arse and the only thing I missed after switching to mercs/tabi was catching ppl when they run. If there was a method to determine if I'am chasing more than being chased then I would highly recommend buying them in those circumstances but as far as I know there isn't. And sorcs... Never tried em to be honest, but I assume its one of those "works because virtually everything would work"-things.
Most of the time, the build you are falling back on when shit is on is the most optimal, which for me is mercs+roa+vest+negatron against a balanced matchup in terms of damage type and CC. The builds you come up with "when you are ahead" do most likely work because you are dumping gold into something and not because they are strong/viable.
What is vest in your build? Also, movement speed quints are so expensive, is it really worth it to get them? They work on most solo top/jungle champs and not only singed or not?
On September 18 2011 23:04 Xedat wrote: What is vest in your build? Also, movement speed quints are so expensive, is it really worth it to get them? They work on most solo top/jungle champs and not only singed or not?
I use dodge quints and seals. MS quints are certainly good too. This is again about the same argument as tabi vs swifties I think.
I run MS quints too, just because I love to run really really fast. MS quints + MS mastery + boots first opening and you are running around like a madman from lvl1!
sorcs vs tabis vs mercs is just picking according to the game, usually mercs but the others are good as well. Nothing wrong with sorcs, best item you can buy for assassinating squishies
I think tabi are great but only if you commit to them with getting the dodge masteries and a yellow page, giving you around 20% dodge and a 10% boost when you do. more than makes up for the 20mv lost from swifties, and the armor helps if you go for a ROA first. Singed isn't the sort of champ to care much about caster damage in the early game at least
On September 22 2011 19:26 Xedat wrote: One Question that is a bit of topic, does the ms mastery only affect base movement speed or also after you bought boots?
Boots as well afaik, but I'm not sure. I'll test it in a custom right now.
Edit: Yea, it's definitely %bonus total mspd rather than just base.
On September 18 2011 15:26 geometryb wrote: it seems like teleport/ flash or ghost nasus is a really strong pick against singed. nasus is pretty much unkillable too, can push down a tower really fast, and free farm q helps nasus a lot more than singed. i think its possible to take mr runes and defensive masteries and just tank the poison/fling while lifestealing on creep so being melee isn't too bad.
I actually love to play against nasus and any other opponent that is not able to push as fast as singed is. The early levels consist of both sides lasthitting. Nasus doesnt want to start trades with singed because he'll lose more farm and probably also health in the process, since singed doesn't have to deal physical damage and can fling nasus into his creeps. You can also spice it up a bit and fling him when he charges for a lasthit. Generally he has to decide wether to harass back while tanking minions and losing lasthits or to leave you farming. Early ganks can be dangerous though because of the sheer strength of wither. But since your minions are attacking nasus alot, because you fling him your lane will be pushed towards your turret early on until you have 6 and your core items.
As soon as singed has his catalyst, boots and maybe philo it is impossible for nasus to counterpush him. Ofc when nasus has teleport too then you cannot deny much of his farm by trading with him but you can certainly push him into his turret 24/7 and go jungling. It is similar to facing warwick by then, who is also a very slow pusher compared to singed. So forcing ganks by aggressively pushing and counterjungling is actually alot easyer against those kind of opponents. From my point of view there are only 2 really dangerous lane types: 1. straight up bullies who can poke alot like akali, mb other ap champs and 2. champs that can push very fast and have some kind of sustain like chogath.
edit:
Also in a teleport vs teleport situation the one has an advantage who can push faster, since you dont have to waste it for going into your lane (you can push it before you B) and you lose less farm if you are helping out with it.
I completely disagree with your analysis. I personally LOVE to see a Singed top as Nasus....means easy 15 min Q farm with no real chance of death. Sure you can take down my health little bits at a time with fling/poison/creep aggro, but I'm Nasus, bro. I can hold the creep wave wherever I want 'cause I have mega lifesteal, and shrug off the extra damage once I have Philostone. If you clear a wave and go off to the jungle you can bet your britches that if I have my lane properly warded I'm going to beat the crap out of your turret. You say Nasus can't push a lane quickly? He one-shots minions with Q and E + auto decimates ranged creeps. Essentially like someone said earlier: a Nasus v Singed lane is a farmfest with possible jungle gank assistance. And of the two champions I'd be more scared of Nasus in an afk farmfest. Not to mention Singed is an easy kill if I farm too long with wither/Sheen/Q/Ult.
Anyone else ever use a hard AP build on singed instead of tank? (For a troll build obvs, but amazingly effective) I usually build cata -> boots1 -> RoA -> sorc boots->Achangels -> Deathcap -> rylas
On October 21 2011 06:22 gosuMalicE wrote: Anyone else ever use a hard AP build on singed instead of tank? (For a troll build obvs, but amazingly effective) I usually build cata -> boots1 -> RoA -> sorc boots->Achangels -> Deathcap -> rylas
trololol, also teamfight rape.
Hilarious. I usually grab swifties and void staff instead of sorc shoes though. It let's you troll harder.
full ap is not that bad on him usually bad, but if the situation calls for it and you have to carry with brutal damage..
with a roa, dcap and rylai you still have 3.5 k HP with 165/150 resistances (with ultimate on) if you do this, don't forget blue potting as much as you can, you need more flings for damage purposes (1.0 ap ratio yeeha)
edit: ok i didnt see that you wrote archangels that sucks hardcore
On October 21 2011 09:32 freelander wrote: full ap is not that bad on him usually bad, but if the situation calls for it and you have to carry with brutal damage..
with a roa, dcap and rylai you still have 3.5 k HP with 165/150 resistances (with ultimate on) if you do this, don't forget blue potting as much as you can, you need more flings for damage purposes (1.0 ap ratio yeeha)
edit: ok i didnt see that you wrote archangels that sucks hardcore
Well my idea with archangels you got inf mana (for all intents and purposes) and can give blue to real ap champs ( i duo with my friend who can basically only play standard ap champs), just a preference, aka in no way necessarily.
On October 21 2011 09:32 freelander wrote: full ap is not that bad on him usually bad, but if the situation calls for it and you have to carry with brutal damage..
with a roa, dcap and rylai you still have 3.5 k HP with 165/150 resistances (with ultimate on) if you do this, don't forget blue potting as much as you can, you need more flings for damage purposes (1.0 ap ratio yeeha)
edit: ok i didnt see that you wrote archangels that sucks hardcore
Well my idea with archangels you got inf mana (for all intents and purposes) and can give blue to real ap champs ( i duo with my friend who can basically only play standard ap champs), just a preference, aka in no way necessarily.
Since when do you need Archangel's for "infinite mana"? Singed takes long enough to spend the ridiculous amount of mana you get from RoA, especially considering that during your ultimate, you out-regen the rate at which your poison expends mana.
ok i have a question: singed's only real counter is ignite. What about getting warmogs after roa if they have 2 ignites?. A full balanced lategame build would look like this: boots2, roa, warmogs, randuins, FoN, luxury (defense/ap/rilay's)
On November 02 2011 00:57 clickrush wrote: ok i have a question: singed's only real counter is ignite. What about getting warmogs after roa if they have 2 ignites?. A full balanced lategame build would look like this: boots2, roa, warmogs, randuins, FoN, luxury (defense/ap/rilay's)
I've tried warmogs build before. Ended up going RoA->Warmogs->FoN/Frozen Heart. Then I got a WotA for more heals and lulz. I was more unkillable than usual with warmogs, but hoenstly Singed is already super tanky there wasn't much of a point in grabbing warmogs. Although having like 150+ hp regen/5 and massive heals off spellvamp was pretty funny. I still find that RoA->Rylais provides more than enough survivability and gives more utility than Warmogs.
I know Singed loves his movespeed, but is the 8 points for 2% extra MS really worth it? What about 9/21/0 with the 10% MPen & extra CDR for fling/goo/ult?
Tried some Singed yesterday and the new cleanse is soo tempting. I love me some teleporting action from top lane and ghost is so useful for both defense and initiation but dat cleanse man...
On October 21 2011 09:32 freelander wrote: full ap is not that bad on him usually bad, but if the situation calls for it and you have to carry with brutal damage..
with a roa, dcap and rylai you still have 3.5 k HP with 165/150 resistances (with ultimate on) if you do this, don't forget blue potting as much as you can, you need more flings for damage purposes (1.0 ap ratio yeeha)
edit: ok i didnt see that you wrote archangels that sucks hardcore
Well my idea with archangels you got inf mana (for all intents and purposes) and can give blue to real ap champs ( i duo with my friend who can basically only play standard ap champs), just a preference, aka in no way necessarily.
The only way to get charges on AA staff with singed are
1) Mega Adhesive 2) Fling 3) Ult
Fling costs an asston of mana, his Ult's CD is really long, and W i wouldnt waste it in that offchance a gank or something was to occur(+long cd)
has anybody tried singed jungle? i've seen it a bit on streams and ranked games (though my ELO is pretty low, so) but i have no idea what the proper build would be for him
I suppose it could work... but why? You serve your purpose to the team by getting ridiculously farmed, taking a tower or two, and becoming the unstoppable freight train that Singed is.
I don't think you could accomplish that in the jungle.
On December 19 2011 06:10 goldenkrnboi wrote: has anybody tried singed jungle? i've seen it a bit on streams and ranked games (though my ELO is pretty low, so) but i have no idea what the proper build would be for him
that seems like it would be mind-numbingly slow, plus his ganks would only be okish (goop is good, but fling can be iffy)
On December 19 2011 06:10 goldenkrnboi wrote: has anybody tried singed jungle? i've seen it a bit on streams and ranked games (though my ELO is pretty low, so) but i have no idea what the proper build would be for him
i used to before they changed masteries/jungle
it was pretty slow, plus if they make it out of goop and you dont hit them with fling its kinda worthless. unless they got like a stun or something
I have heard the Singed loses a LOT of top lane match ups, do you guys think it would be wise to make singed my main tank and lets say im 3rd pick, pick him if they haven't picked theit top yet? or is he way too easy to shut down?
basically what I'm asking is, can a good singed player succeed in most lanes and farm well?
The thing with singed, he doesn't really win the lane. Sure, he can get farmed to hell and become a train, but he doesn't actually beat the opponent (assuming they aren't dumb) from what I've seen.
On December 24 2011 12:44 Cosmology wrote: I have heard the Singed loses a LOT of top lane match ups, do you guys think it would be wise to make singed my main tank and lets say im 3rd pick, pick him if they haven't picked theit top yet? or is he way too easy to shut down?
basically what I'm asking is, can a good singed player succeed in most lanes and farm well?
he is shut down until he gets catalyst. pure and simple
Yeah you don't really "win" a lane as singed in the traditional sense. Though you often do take the tower first. You do eventually become more or less unkillable, farm a TON, and farm behind the enemy tower, which is very obnoxious to the enemy, and guaranteed to draw a lot of attention. Wait to get ganked, pop ult and mebbe ghost if you need, and trollface to safety. Every second your lane opponent spends chasing you through his own jungle is another second he's not farming his lane.
You can even die a few times and it's no big deal as long as you eventually get that crazy CS count. Eventually you are an unstoppable freight train and incredibly annoying in team fights!
So, what's the deal with all the jungle Singeds running amok at the moment? 9/21/0 or 0/21/9, and do you have to run AP runes Maokai style, or are you fine w/a defensive/mspeed setup?
On January 15 2012 22:30 Haasts wrote: So, what's the deal with all the jungle Singeds running amok at the moment? 9/21/0 or 0/21/9, and do you have to run AP runes Maokai style, or are you fine w/a defensive/mspeed setup?
You can run defensive/ms setup but I have been considering AP to make the first clear smoother and be content with using shurelia/ghost/ult as the only speed boosts. I've been running 9util, but don't see why 9 off wouldn't work really. Probably comes down to preference.
On December 19 2011 10:19 travis wrote: I have tried jungle singed, and it was hilarious slow and pretty bad.
The speed is average from 1~4, after 5 though q spam is pretty fast and efficient at anything but buffs.
On January 15 2012 22:30 Haasts wrote: So, what's the deal with all the jungle Singeds running amok at the moment? 9/21/0 or 0/21/9, and do you have to run AP runes Maokai style, or are you fine w/a defensive/mspeed setup?
it's because of Dyrus and TheOddOne creating a bandwagon effect.
I would think that anyone who can't kill him outright before level 6 he should be fine against. Especially those with no wave clear. He can just push the wave and force you to farm under the turret while he roams/takes wolves/golems/buffs/dragons/your mid's life. Don't know, haven't played against singed very much, but when I do, he sure is a motherfucker. Of course, I never lose top lane, but that doesn'tt stop him from being a motherfucker :>
No idea if it's workable in any hands other than those of InvertedComposer, but I've really enjoyed spectating random featured games with his top lane Singed - he's running the Bane-esque Augmented skin, running hybrid pen marks, and building an early Sheen to punch people in the face after tossing them around.
So I actually been maining singed for about 3 weeks already around 80 games. Got about 60-65% win rate on him between 1400-1600 elo.
Singed's real bad matchup is kayle and lulu. These two matchups are so hard if they counterpick with them. I rather just go to support position and let soraka top or something. \Many people think rumble, teemo, vlad counter singed but at my elo you can easily outplay them. Teemo can be hard if you play it wrong lvl 2 and lvl 3. I generally all in teemo at lvl 2 burnin my ghost and ignite. Diving onto him flip autoattack psn while moving along side him to continuously deal psn damage. Many teemo people doesn't actually realize singed actually beats teemo if singed doesnt get kited. Rumble is an decent matchup. I usually go in at last tick of flamethrow, take a point of damage then flip him into my range creeps then proceed to psn+punch him. Im sure at higher elo 1800+ maybe, they won't work but right now I generally outdamage rumble and beat him in lane. Vlad beat you at lvl 7 or so where his 2 spells begin chunking you and have good kill potential with ult+ignite but if you get a good gank and get a kill early and get an catalyst. You can shove him 2-3 wave then roam a bit to gank and counter jungle. Vlad matchup really focuses on singed running around for ganks+objectives because vlad outscales singed really hard so your team has to do all the carrying.
On August 10 2012 10:56 xbankx wrote: So I actually been maining singed for about 3 weeks already around 80 games. Got about 60-65% win rate on him between 1400-1600 elo.
Singed's real bad matchup is kayle and lulu. These two matchups are so hard if they counterpick with them. I rather just go to support position and let soraka top or something. \Many people think rumble, teemo, vlad counter singed but at my elo you can easily outplay them. Teemo can be hard if you play it wrong lvl 2 and lvl 3. I generally all in teemo at lvl 2 burnin my ghost and ignite. Diving onto him flip autoattack psn while moving along side him to continuously deal psn damage. Many teemo people doesn't actually realize singed actually beats teemo if singed doesnt get kited. Rumble is an decent matchup. I usually go in at last tick of flamethrow, take a point of damage then flip him into my range creeps then proceed to psn+punch him. Im sure at higher elo 1800+ maybe, they won't work but right now I generally outdamage rumble and beat him in lane. Vlad beat you at lvl 7 or so where his 2 spells begin chunking you and have good kill potential with ult+ignite but if you get a good gank and get a kill early and get an catalyst. You can shove him 2-3 wave then roam a bit to gank and counter jungle. Vlad matchup really focuses on singed running around for ganks+objectives because vlad outscales singed really hard so your team has to do all the carrying.
I'm a kayle maining player and I just have to say that's it's not even as close as you think it is. I mean I get that kayle is probably one of the best counters to singed, and I will bully you and prevent you from csing until at least level 3 while trying not to push as hard as I can and warding for ganks. But if I ever get flinged, the trade only goes mildly in my favor as long as I don't chase and stay in position to auto you. I'll probably end up winning lane and pushing lanes back fast enough to not let it hit my tower, and force you back a lot, but not enough to take tower. Eventually, best case scenario I'll take your tower but if I leave my tower you can take it. And you're still pretty dang tanky mid game.
Also, same as teemo. No mr kayle takes a lot of damage from a fling.
Kayle wins a lot of matchups hard but there are some that aren't won as easily as others.
If I start boots + 3pot I can be ganked by a jungler once you activate my E and run away, since I will push the wave. If I start boots + 1 ward + pot, then I only have 150 life to spare before damage becomes permanent. If I start anything other than boots I can't really kite very well.
I have 2 questions as a newer singed player. I have read IC's guide on solomid and have been doing well with singed so far, but I have a few questions.
1) When do you go for GP10's, and how do they interact with your early catalyst? Do you completely skip the catalyst and go straight to raylais after, or do you still go for catalyst, etc. When are GP10s a really good idea versus it being better to rush catalyst?
2) For an intermediate singed player, is it better to run exhaust/ghost or TP ghost, and what mastery setup is better if you are using TP? I like running TP, but I'm not sure if I want to run utility masteries when I'm not 100% confident in winning my lane (defensive masteries help a lot), and TP's CD is just so long without mastermind. Should I just run exhaust, or should I half ass use TP?
I never take GP10 and I either Ignite or TP, not Exhaust. Most of your lane threat comes from being able to ult + poison + ignite someone.
TP is good in lanes where you don't have much kill potential, but also don't have much threat from the enemy lane. I usually don't take TP because lower level / Elo players are very bad at taking advantage of TP and I don't play Singed on my main.
in regards to singed counters: whenever the other team picks singed i counter with shyvana. you can kill singed at lvl 2, just straight up. every lvl up to 6 your kill potential just gets stronger and stronger, and if hes not dead by 6 you can dive his turret with dragon form. if you get a kill then the lane is over for singed, you can kill him whenever he comes out to cs. i go flash/ignite on shyv.
On August 20 2012 03:00 Vaporized wrote: in regards to singed counters: whenever the other team picks singed i counter with shyvana. you can kill singed at lvl 2, just straight up. every lvl up to 6 your kill potential just gets stronger and stronger, and if hes not dead by 6 you can dive his turret with dragon form. if you get a kill then the lane is over for singed, you can kill him whenever he comes out to cs. i go flash/ignite on shyv.
How do you pick a fight with singed at level 2 as shyvana? You have no slow, stun, or anything to stop him from kiting. I don't understand why you would tower dive singed at 6 either, assuming he hits 6 as well. Your strategy seems to be one that constantly put pressure on singed from 1-6. Shyvana is very easily ganked pre 6 and I seriously doubt you even win trades when you are being kited with w while he flings, AA, and poisons you.
in order to farm singed is going to have to be in melee range of the creeps (to either hit them with his fist or poison).
singed gets a 10 sec cd fling, and a 14 sec cd aoe slow. if you save shyvana w for after he flips you, you can catch back up and stick to him. i mention lvl 2 because if singed goes poison - fling, shyvana can kill him, especially with ignite. and i mentioned flash, if you get slowed you can flash back onto singed, then w, which lets you again stick to singed because you have a movespeed boost and his slow is on cd. you dont need more then a few seconds of w and ~2-3 q's + ignite to kill singed early game.
shyvana early game damage is massive, and singed is squishy early game. it is actually fairly one-sided and the singed will be zoned or die.
On August 20 2012 04:22 Vaporized wrote: in order to farm singed is going to have to be in melee range of the creeps (to either hit them with his fist or poison).
singed gets a 10 sec cd fling, and a 14 sec cd aoe slow. if you save shyvana w for after he flips you, you can catch back up and stick to him. i mention lvl 2 because if singed goes poison - fling, shyvana can kill him, especially with ignite. and i mentioned flash, if you get slowed you can flash back onto singed, then w, which lets you again stick to singed because you have a movespeed boost and his slow is on cd. you dont need more then a few seconds of w and ~2-3 q's + ignite to kill singed early game.
shyvana early game damage is massive, and singed is squishy early game. it is actually fairly one-sided and the singed will be zoned or die.
I don't know what ELO bracket you are in to face a singed that dies at level 2 when singed has one of the best level 2 combos in the game. I've NEVER even heard of a shyvana going for a flash ignite combo for a level 2 kill. Why would a singed randomly flip you when you don't have w on? All this leads me to assume you are playing some scrub singed and decided that shyvana hardcounters singed based on limited results against inferior opponents.
I also don't understand why you mentioned singed's cooldowns when shyvana's w has a 3 second duration and a 12 second cooldown... you simply cannot stick on singed. If you want to test your theory on a mediocore but not terrible singed, I'm always up for improving my matchups.
On August 20 2012 04:22 Vaporized wrote: in order to farm singed is going to have to be in melee range of the creeps (to either hit them with his fist or poison).
singed gets a 10 sec cd fling, and a 14 sec cd aoe slow. if you save shyvana w for after he flips you, you can catch back up and stick to him. i mention lvl 2 because if singed goes poison - fling, shyvana can kill him, especially with ignite. and i mentioned flash, if you get slowed you can flash back onto singed, then w, which lets you again stick to singed because you have a movespeed boost and his slow is on cd. you dont need more then a few seconds of w and ~2-3 q's + ignite to kill singed early game.
shyvana early game damage is massive, and singed is squishy early game. it is actually fairly one-sided and the singed will be zoned or die.
I don't know what ELO bracket you are in to face a singed that dies at level 2 when singed has one of the best level 2 combos in the game. I've NEVER even heard of a shyvana going for a flash ignite combo for a level 2 kill. Why would a singed randomly flip you when you don't have w on? All this leads me to assume you are playing some scrub singed and decided that shyvana hardcounters singed based on limited results against inferior opponents.
I also don't understand why you mentioned singed's cooldowns when shyvana's w has a 3 second duration and a 12 second cooldown... you simply cannot stick on singed. If you want to test your theory on a mediocore but not terrible singed, I'm always up for improving my matchups.
It's a 6 second duration assuming you can actually get autos on singed. Before he has his goop, I don't see why you can't get in melee range and W and glue yourself to him for 6 seconds, or at least force a ghost. Burning flash would just make him burn ghost safely, though - I don't think that would accomplish anything. Singed is pretty easy to bully early on. I expect you can zone him from creeps up through 6 and outtrade his poison.
On August 09 2012 13:31 Haasts wrote: No idea if it's workable in any hands other than those of InvertedComposer, but I've really enjoyed spectating random featured games with his top lane Singed - he's running the Bane-esque Augmented skin, running hybrid pen marks, and building an early Sheen to punch people in the face after tossing them around.
Composer is a true badass.. i thought singed was a goner until i saw him play. i learned the truth and now i beat Darius top. true story
On August 20 2012 04:22 Vaporized wrote: in order to farm singed is going to have to be in melee range of the creeps (to either hit them with his fist or poison).
singed gets a 10 sec cd fling, and a 14 sec cd aoe slow. if you save shyvana w for after he flips you, you can catch back up and stick to him. i mention lvl 2 because if singed goes poison - fling, shyvana can kill him, especially with ignite. and i mentioned flash, if you get slowed you can flash back onto singed, then w, which lets you again stick to singed because you have a movespeed boost and his slow is on cd. you dont need more then a few seconds of w and ~2-3 q's + ignite to kill singed early game.
shyvana early game damage is massive, and singed is squishy early game. it is actually fairly one-sided and the singed will be zoned or die.
I don't know what ELO bracket you are in to face a singed that dies at level 2 when singed has one of the best level 2 combos in the game. I've NEVER even heard of a shyvana going for a flash ignite combo for a level 2 kill. Why would a singed randomly flip you when you don't have w on? All this leads me to assume you are playing some scrub singed and decided that shyvana hardcounters singed based on limited results against inferior opponents.
I also don't understand why you mentioned singed's cooldowns when shyvana's w has a 3 second duration and a 12 second cooldown... you simply cannot stick on singed. If you want to test your theory on a mediocore but not terrible singed, I'm always up for improving my matchups.
Actually, the damage from Shyvana's level 2 W + Q combo is comparable to Singed's level Q + E combo.
Shyvana [W] Burnout; No Cost; 12 sec Cooldown; 325 range -- Shyvana deals 25/40/55/70/85 (+0.2 Bonus AD) magic damage per second to nearby enemies and moves 30/35/40/45/50% faster for 3 seconds. Shyvana's Movement Speed bonus is reduced over time. Dragon Form: Burnout scorches the earth, continuing to damage enemies that stand on it.
Shyvana [Q] Twin Bite; No Cost; 10/9/8/7/6 sec Cooldown; 650 range -- Shyvana strikes twice on her next attack, dealing (+N/A) physical damage on the second attack. The bonus damage is equal to 80/85/90/95/100% of Shyvana's Attack Damage. Dragon Form: Twin Bite cleaves all units in front Shyvana.
61.80 damage (her base AD at level 2) * 1.8 = 111.24 damage from her Q. This is comparable to Fling's damage.
It could go either way. Their damage numbers and base stats are about equal.
On August 20 2012 04:22 Vaporized wrote: in order to farm singed is going to have to be in melee range of the creeps (to either hit them with his fist or poison).
singed gets a 10 sec cd fling, and a 14 sec cd aoe slow. if you save shyvana w for after he flips you, you can catch back up and stick to him. i mention lvl 2 because if singed goes poison - fling, shyvana can kill him, especially with ignite. and i mentioned flash, if you get slowed you can flash back onto singed, then w, which lets you again stick to singed because you have a movespeed boost and his slow is on cd. you dont need more then a few seconds of w and ~2-3 q's + ignite to kill singed early game.
shyvana early game damage is massive, and singed is squishy early game. it is actually fairly one-sided and the singed will be zoned or die.
I don't know what ELO bracket you are in to face a singed that dies at level 2 when singed has one of the best level 2 combos in the game. I've NEVER even heard of a shyvana going for a flash ignite combo for a level 2 kill. Why would a singed randomly flip you when you don't have w on? All this leads me to assume you are playing some scrub singed and decided that shyvana hardcounters singed based on limited results against inferior opponents.
I also don't understand why you mentioned singed's cooldowns when shyvana's w has a 3 second duration and a 12 second cooldown... you simply cannot stick on singed. If you want to test your theory on a mediocore but not terrible singed, I'm always up for improving my matchups.
Actually, the damage from Shyvana's level 2 W + Q combo is comparable to Singed's level Q + E combo.
Shyvana [W] Burnout; No Cost; 12 sec Cooldown; 325 range -- Shyvana deals 25/40/55/70/85 (+0.2 Bonus AD) magic damage per second to nearby enemies and moves 30/35/40/45/50% faster for 3 seconds. Shyvana's Movement Speed bonus is reduced over time. Dragon Form: Burnout scorches the earth, continuing to damage enemies that stand on it.
Shyvana [Q] Twin Bite; No Cost; 10/9/8/7/6 sec Cooldown; 650 range -- Shyvana strikes twice on her next attack, dealing (+N/A) physical damage on the second attack. The bonus damage is equal to 80/85/90/95/100% of Shyvana's Attack Damage. Dragon Form: Twin Bite cleaves all units in front Shyvana.
61.80 damage (her base AD at level 2) * 1.8 = 111.24 damage from her Q. This is comparable to Fling's damage.
It could go either way. Their damage numbers and base stats are about equal.
Thanks for the stats. I'm not saying singed will beat shyvana, I simply disagree with the notion that shyvana can begin zoning singed at level 2, let alone securing a kill with ignite flash.
What starting items are considered best for Singed?
I've been opening Boots+pots every game but then I can't decide if I like double GP10 or RoA better for my early game build. If I rush RoA then I skip the gp10 but if I get the gp10 I skip the RoA.
Which route is better on singed or is it matchup dependent? Would there be any reason to do both?
On September 13 2012 02:51 Antyee wrote: You need catalyst to be able to lane imo. And since you are very good at farming, you don't really need gp10.
One game I farmed so well in singed, i went cata into double gp5 and still managed RoA before 20. felt like a god. Rev + randuins just so good on him too
I know somebody who goes boots+3 -> cata/double gp5 (or at least philo) -> rylai -> stuff. He usually ends up selling the gp5 and makes his catalyst into a banshee.
I guess I can see his point, getting the godlike utility from rylai poison trail as soon as possible, but I don't really like it compared to rushing RoA. You get your useful stats a bit later, but if you get the RoA early once charged you're sitting on so much gold value per slot. I guess I could see him arguing that since RoA takes 10 minutes to charge, might as well build gp5, sell it 10 minutes later and sit on a lot of gold too.
On September 13 2012 02:51 Antyee wrote: You need catalyst to be able to lane imo. And since you are very good at farming, you don't really need gp10.
One game I farmed so well in singed, i went cata into double gp5 and still managed RoA before 20. felt like a god. Rev + randuins just so good on him too
With the HoG nerf, I'd rather get a Kage's and fling all day for terrible damage. You have more than enough HP due to your passive anyway, and I like DFG too much for the extra CDR and that extra bit of damage can cripple carries quite easily. But I think that's more than a play-style type of choice. I rarely get more armor than a Tabi+Chain Vest (building into a 5th item Zhonya's for ultimate trolling; or Sunfire if I want to be more manmode).
If you're building gp10 items then you don't get any extra HP from your passive so I would say HoG is still stronger choice than Kage's. CD isn't a good buy on Singed and Randuins seems better on him than DFG.
So the consensus is that if you can farm easily just go for the RoA and if you can't free farm then build gp10. But then some people say why not just do both and super farm? Would this harm your mid game too much?
And I don't think I'll ever buy doran's shield on singed but just for the sake of discussion does anybody build 1-2 early against heavy AD (Riven)? I would imagine that philo would give better sustain in lane.
Kage instead of hog was in reply to getting both before the 20 minutes Mark. And as I said getting it and DFG is rather a personal preference as general advice. I just like CDR a lot. If you can't freefarm, you shouldn't have firstpicked Singed
I tend to get 2 cloth armors vs riven. I have never really felt like needing dshield.
I assume you use those 2 cloths as part of frozen heart, seems like the better play and I hadn't thought of that. Since singed free farms most matchups I don't see the need in gp10 items, RoA is plenty strong and not rushing it makes his poison feel weaker without the additional AP.
My Conclusion: Going back to RoA after starting boots and if I need early defense buy cloth/mantle since you'll use it later anyway. Only going to buy gp10 items if I'm behind from ganks or against hard lanes like kayle/lulu and having trouble farming. Building gp10 items doesn't give the synergy with your passive that RoA does and you lose the damage boost as well, plus it gives sustain.
1 goes for Tabi, other one goes for most likely sale when I get a chainvest, or even Aegis if noone wants to buy it for some reason. (fiddle jungle+morgana support or stuff like that :D)
Yep, I think the conclusion should be fine, but I'd be happier if someone more relevant would also agree with it.
I'm always hesitant to buy Tabi if they have any reliable CC since you will want to be running around them constantly. Plus my usual armor item is FH and that should be plenty of armor imo. You're right about Aegis though, it's not a team fight without one.
You get CC-reduction with your ult, and they stack multiplicatively, so it's not that efficient, even though the CC-red. part of the ult was nerfed. Feel free to buy Tabi, if needed
One thing I really hate about singed is even when I beat him in lane he just keeps coming back and pushing the lane so I can like never leave my lane for risk of losing towers.
Against harder hitting physical damage dealers like renekton/darius/riven I actually like grabbing one or two doran's shields before grabbing a catalyst depending on how the lane's going. 120 health AND armor AND health regen is really really good in the early game. Singed really doesn't make that much use of those item slots for a long time anyways since RoA/Rylais really only take up two slots for most of the game.
I always get RoA since it's such an amazing item and from there work towards rylais. I've tried sitting on a catalyst and grabbing the rylais first but it never feels quite as good. If I didn't buy dorans earlier I'd buy a chainvest to enable farming behind the tower and generally mucking around in their jungle.
How does Singed do in 1v2 lanes btw? I assume he would have the uttermost trouble farming and would be really behind when the switch back happens, since a duo lane usually brings either enough burst to kill him, or some sustain to mitigate his attempts at farming with Q under their noses.
In regards to 2v1 lanes watch the match between CLG.eu and AzubuFrost Semi-finals Game 3 of the Word Championships. Singed top vs Ezreal and Sona. They manage to push his tower down fairly quickly but Singed still manages to farm up and still get some kills before mid game. Singed ends up out farming everyone, even froggen! It was insane!
I'd like to discuss the build Singed used this match since he uses items that i would have thought sub-par on him.
On October 12 2012 10:35 wei2coolman wrote: So what's consensus on revolver first singed? I feel mana problems would be a main issue, rather than hp sustain.
Makes zero sense. Someone should explain it to me.
For laning purposes, it feels like Catalyst is better in every aspect. You Spell Vamp, so sustain-wise, let's say you're even. Extra AP means you're obviously going to want to aggro more. I used to max Fling last but if you're going early AP build, makes more sense to get Fling second instead.
On October 12 2012 10:35 wei2coolman wrote: So what's consensus on revolver first singed? I feel mana problems would be a main issue, rather than hp sustain.
Makes zero sense. Someone should explain it to me.
For laning purposes, it feels like Catalyst is better in every aspect. You Spell Vamp, so sustain-wise, let's say you're even. Extra AP means you're obviously going to want to aggro more. I used to max Fling last but if you're going early AP build, makes more sense to get Fling second instead.
That's what I was thinking, Catalyst first is way better. Because the only time the HP sustain from revolver would be significant is if he could continually gas the lane down, but in order to do that he has to have the mana to do so. I could see chalice + revolver, maybe, but Catalyst is just so good...
I figure the revolver question is being asked since Shy built it against CLG.EU as his first item. I don't remember what the final builds ended up being, but I have to imagine they did this because they ran a double WOTA comp with their mid Vlad. Don't know if he built in in their game against SK.
On October 12 2012 11:47 onlywonderboy wrote: I figure the revolver question is being asked since Shy built it against CLG.EU as his first item. I don't remember what the final builds ended up being, but I have to imagine they did this because they ran a double WOTA comp with their mid Vlad. Don't know if he built in in their game against SK.
He never upgraded it into WotA, kept revolver the whole game. Although I was expecting the double WotA during the game he just never built it.
On October 12 2012 11:47 onlywonderboy wrote: I figure the revolver question is being asked since Shy built it against CLG.EU as his first item. I don't remember what the final builds ended up being, but I have to imagine they did this because they ran a double WOTA comp with their mid Vlad. Don't know if he built in in their game against SK.
He never upgraded it into WotA, kept revolver the whole game. Although I was expecting the double WotA during the game he just never built it.
My only theory there is that was the original plan, but he got fed enough that he could just outright buy better items. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees revolver isn't great on Singed haha.
Catalyst grants about 380+HP and 325+MP at level 6 over Revolver. Revolver grants 40+AP which equals ~21% more DPS (with Ult) on poison (lv.3) and fling (lv.2). Even if the HP sustain is equal Catalyst still grants MP sustain and builds into RoA = better lane item no doubt.
I have 1 other thought about this. I usually build FoN instead of Abyssal Sceptre because of the sustain in fights. Since he has revolver for sustain he doesn't really need FoN and therefore can do much more damage and still sustain in team fights. Both grant sustain and MR so is it really just a choice between MS and DPS? Seems this item would be better on Singed now rather than the AP Mid since the range nerf.
Which is better for mid/late team fights? [Force Of Nature] or [Abyssal Sceptre + revolver]? (Assume the AP mid doesn't build it)
Each wave of minion is around ~2500-3000 HP around the 10th minute I think. So if you kill all of them using your poison you get maybe 120 hp each wave.
I did some numbers on the sustain value to figure this out. I assumed the average player would have 100 MR (50% reduction) and accounted for the 33% vamp on DoT spells.
Build 1) RoA + Randuins + FoN = 22.88 hp/sec Build 2) RoA + Randuins + Abyssal + Revolver = 8.4 hp/sec + 2.5 hp/sec for each person affected with poison trail.
Since you already do MORE damage with build 2 if you can hit all 5 enemies active with your poison your sustain should equal that of build 1. You take slightly more damage from Magic due to your lower MR but add in the spell vamp from Fling and you get another 58.8 hp (6 hp/sec if you spam it).
Build 2 only costs more due to the revolver but take account the extra DPS and MR debuff and its worth considering. Anyone have thoughts to add?
On October 13 2012 00:27 Ghost-z wrote: I did some numbers on the sustain value to figure this out. I assumed the average player would have 100 MR (50% reduction) and accounted for the 33% vamp on DoT spells.
Build 1) RoA + Randuins + FoN = 22.88 hp/sec Build 2) RoA + Randuins + Abyssal + Revolver = 8.4 hp/sec + 2.5 hp/sec for each person affected with poison trail.
Since you already do MORE damage with build 2 if you can hit all 5 enemies active with your poison your sustain should equal that of build 1. You take slightly more damage from Magic due to your lower MR but add in the spell vamp from Fling and you get another 58.8 hp (6 hp/sec if you spam it).
Build 2 only costs more due to the revolver but take account the extra DPS and MR debuff and its worth considering. Anyone have thoughts to add?
The only problem with Build 2 is it is heavily reliant on hitting every enemy with your poison. If the enemy positioning can avoid this, you're missing out on a lot of the hp/sec. Which would in turn weaken his dueling potential. At least that's how I think it would work based on your explanation.
On October 13 2012 00:13 Sufficiency wrote: Each wave of minion is around ~2500-3000 HP around the 10th minute I think. So if you kill all of them using your poison you get maybe 120 hp each wave.
I checked LoL wiki and melee minions have 450 hp and castor minions have 280 hp. Given the 12% spell vamp (4% on DoT) and assuming your own minions do 0 damage you would heal 4% of 2175 which equals 87 HP on the first wave and minions slowly get stronger as the game goes on. A siege minion starts with 700 hp so add 28 HP on those waves. 115 total.
I guess the real question on revolver before catalyst is "When do you OOM?"
On October 13 2012 00:35 justiceknight wrote: i watched Reapered's stream and he used the same build as Shy,something like Revolver >MR boots > Rylai > abyssal scept > Randuin
starts with MR boots and revolver sustain well already then Rylai to avoid being caught,from there he starts to snowball.
Need chalice in there, I couldn't see Singed stay on map that long without some form of mana sustain.
On October 13 2012 00:27 Ghost-z wrote: I did some numbers on the sustain value to figure this out. I assumed the average player would have 100 MR (50% reduction) and accounted for the 33% vamp on DoT spells.
Build 1) RoA + Randuins + FoN = 22.88 hp/sec Build 2) RoA + Randuins + Abyssal + Revolver = 8.4 hp/sec + 2.5 hp/sec for each person affected with poison trail.
Since you already do MORE damage with build 2 if you can hit all 5 enemies active with your poison your sustain should equal that of build 1. You take slightly more damage from Magic due to your lower MR but add in the spell vamp from Fling and you get another 58.8 hp (6 hp/sec if you spam it).
Build 2 only costs more due to the revolver but take account the extra DPS and MR debuff and its worth considering. Anyone have thoughts to add?
The only problem with Build 2 is it is heavily reliant on hitting every enemy with your poison. If the enemy positioning can avoid this, you're missing out on a lot of the hp/sec. Which would in turn weaken his dueling potential. At least that's how I think it would work based on your explanation.
Correct, Build 1 should be stronger in a 1v1 situation. However when you complete the builds team fights should be the focus and if Singed loses a 1v1 he should just run away.
On October 13 2012 00:35 justiceknight wrote: i watched Reapered's stream and he used the same build as Shy,something like Revolver >MR boots > Rylai > abyssal scept > Randuin
starts with MR boots and revolver sustain well already then Rylai to avoid being caught,from there he starts to snowball.
Need chalice in there, I couldn't see Singed stay on map that long without some form of mana sustain.
Yes I feel you need mana somewhere in the build because ignoring his passive seems foolish to me unless it scales his "total mana" and not "bonus mana". Could someone clarify please?
On October 13 2012 00:35 justiceknight wrote: i watched Reapered's stream and he used the same build as Shy,something like Revolver >MR boots > Rylai > abyssal scept > Randuin
starts with MR boots and revolver sustain well already then Rylai to avoid being caught,from there he starts to snowball.
Need chalice in there, I couldn't see Singed stay on map that long without some form of mana sustain.
Yes I feel you need mana somewhere in the build because ignoring his passive seems foolish to me unless it scales his "total mana" and not "bonus mana". Could someone clarify please?
Catalyst only gives a short burst of (albeit big) sustain during level up. Revolver gives sustain when you're farming (and most likely taking harass). Together with health pots singed can shrug off most harass while farming keeping health close to max at all times, so you don't have to miss any cs 1v1 due to being low enough to be allined.
Shy ran singed top twice in the world finals. The first time was in the group stage vs SK Gaming, Singed vs Irelia.
That game he actually dominates Irelia even more than he does Riven, practically living between 1st and 2nd tower the entire laning phase.
I think the idea with the early revolver over catalyst is that with armor runes + tabi, you can shrug off Irelia/Riven's pokes and then with revolver you can hurt them, farm and sustain all at once. Like many people said the problem is mana sustain, but I see Shy spam his ult everytime it's ult, and if you remember his ult gives you increases mana regen.
The tricky part is getting to revolver by lvl 6 without getting behind in lane.
Now that I think about it, when I play Singed I'm always saving my ult for ganks and using Fling probably more than I should. If instead I stop using Fling and pop his ult whenever a minion wave is near I should have a much easier time keeping mana sustain.
Wow, revolver is insane on singed. If you're actively farming behind towers. 4% healing off of the poison on 6-7f creeps is actually a pretty hefty amount and you also get a massive chunk for every fling you do.
You have to be a good deal more aggressive than you normally would be since you have to make the limited amount of mana you have work but it's so good. Between the revolver sustain and ulti sustain, being at full health 24/7 behind the enemy tower is amazing and probably infuriating to play against as well.
pretty sure you can do the same thing with a blasting wand and additional healing and mana pots. blasting wand also builds into alot of really useful stuff and the additional mana pots will give you more timing choice over R. Riven is an exceptionally easy matchup for singed (on par with wukong and shen) so rushing revolver in this game didnt have to be a "I need to invest into something that wins my lane"-build but rather a "I can get away with this and safe me some healing pots"-build as it is far weaker than pots+wand in the short term and limits your skill timings but sustains a bit more costeffective in the long run if you can keep your mana up.
If you farm post-tower with revolver you can be pretty liberal with giong back to base, as you take waves out so early it takes forever for the next one to get into your lane so you miss almost nothing while forcing your opponent to either back and miss out on a lot or to stay under tower vulnerable to dives whenever your jungler/mid decide to show up.
Just remember, you can toggle on Q for a second and toggle it back off to save tons of mana when farming. If you're always farm never fight, then you don't need very much mana at all.
you dont need a lot of mana as singed for just pushing / farming waves. toggle Q is good enough. shy further reduces his mana usage by skipping adhesive and going for more levels of fling, which plays well into the whole more dmg thing when combined with hextech revolver.
On October 13 2012 02:39 Live2Win wrote: Shy ran singed top twice in the world finals. The first time was in the group stage vs SK Gaming, Singed vs Irelia.
That game he actually dominates Irelia even more than he does Riven, practically living between 1st and 2nd tower the entire laning phase.
I think the idea with the early revolver over catalyst is that with armor runes + tabi, you can shrug off Irelia/Riven's pokes and then with revolver you can hurt them, farm and sustain all at once. Like many people said the problem is mana sustain, but I see Shy spam his ult everytime it's ult, and if you remember his ult gives you increases mana regen.
The tricky part is getting to revolver by lvl 6 without getting behind in lane.
youre going to get like 170 mana back with his ult on, while wasting everything else. his ult costs 150 on its own. using it on cd seems like a complete waste
On October 14 2012 00:02 nyxnyxnyx wrote: you dont need a lot of mana as singed for just pushing / farming waves. toggle Q is good enough. shy further reduces his mana usage by skipping adhesive and going for more levels of fling, which plays well into the whole more dmg thing when combined with hextech revolver.
you buy revolver for the regen and not for the damage. The reason you can get away with revolver over blasting wand+pots is because irelia and especially riven are bad vs singed so in the long run you are probably saving money. I don't think singed profits that much from revolver after laneing and I'd rather have other regen tools like shureilas/FoN which are both extremely strong items on him while I build blasting wand into rilays/roa for more damage and health. revolver/wota both need to be supplemented well to be effective with more damage, defense and mana/manaregen, so the item asks for additional farm to be useful in mid-late game scenarios.
Shy picks singed into lanes like these because he has the confidence to outpush and snowball those opponents and force engagements on him. revolver is a pure convenience item there and not what made him win those lanes but rather a long term investment.
edit: also you can see how he gets outtraded in the midgame by irelia because he is sitting on revolver and catalyst while ire has wits end. I think if he had built more damage and health it would look different.
I've been going boots -> dshield and armorboots (vs ad) -> Haunting guise -> sheen -> rylais -> either FoN or FH.
During lane phase, always pick fight when ults up. By the time your ult is off they'll either have b'd or have died. Farm for a little and b, come back to lane, your ult will be up soon again, rinse and repeat. I don't even bother warding because I'm so tanky and do so much dmg with ult that if I'm ganked I end up with a double kill.
I literally assassinate AD carries midgame. This is around 1700 elo.
Q doesn't proc sheen. When you fling, you can immediately press a-leftclick and get a free auto attack in while the enemy is in the air. Singed's combo is almost like a mini jayce combo. Poison tick + fling + sheen proc + AA in one combo with no retaliation from enemy is very strong.
Most people say ashe is the best counter to singed. Not because of some godlike lane harass. She doesn't even need to lane against him. Ashe just has the slow which reduces the chance that singed will run into your team and flip someone. In fact, without flash, I think he has a relatively hard time closing the distance on a team's squishies with an ashe. Ashe herself has no innate flash though so just theorycraft, if she got slowed she'd have to ult him to have a chance of gettting away.
The problem with singed is that even if you do well against him in lane and build against him he can do well against the rest of your team. I personally think you should pick a champ that can do the same without losing lane.
On October 13 2012 02:39 Live2Win wrote: if you remember his ult gives you increases mana regen.
By an insignificant amount. You barely recoup the cost at rank 1 and only net 100 mana rank 2. You certainly should never use it for mana regen. It is, however, a short CD, so you can pop it often to harass and force the opponent into an unfavorable situation where they have to base and miss cs, stay and hug tower (letting you farm beyond tower and not be gankable), or simply die.
My favorite tops are Wukong, Jayce, and Singed. I love singed, but in ranked games I can never think of a situation where I would rather have him over Jayce or Wu. In team select, when would I want to pick Singed over those two?
well if you see the enemy team doesn't have much crowd control then playing singed can be really hilarious. if you don't fail your lane you'll be completely unkillable.
On October 20 2012 11:37 obesechicken13 wrote: Most people say ashe is the best counter to singed. Not because of some godlike lane harass. She doesn't even need to lane against him. Ashe just has the slow which reduces the chance that singed will run into your team and flip someone. In fact, without flash, I think he has a relatively hard time closing the distance on a team's squishies with an ashe. Ashe herself has no innate flash though so just theorycraft, if she got slowed she'd have to ult him to have a chance of gettting away.
The problem with singed is that even if you do well against him in lane and build against him he can do well against the rest of your team. I personally think you should pick a champ that can do the same without losing lane.
On October 20 2012 15:38 broz0rs wrote: Champs who can safely harass can give Singed a hard time before he hits lv. 6. Pretty sure Nunu and Panth stomps him hard.
I haven't tried either match up but I don't see how nunu is supposed to win. Fling will stop any attempt to get a fully channeled ult and I feel singed does well against champions who have no pushing power. I could be wrong but how is nunu supposed to handle all the pushing?
On October 20 2012 15:38 broz0rs wrote: Champs who can safely harass can give Singed a hard time before he hits lv. 6. Pretty sure Nunu and Panth stomps him hard.
I haven't tried either match up but I don't see how nunu is supposed to win. Fling will stop any attempt to get a fully channeled ult and I feel singed does well against champions who have no pushing power. I could be wrong but how is nunu supposed to handle all the pushing?
Nunu is hard for Singed and Pantheon is pretty easy. I can imagine Pantheon being easy for Singed (because Pantheon is melee and Singed is not too worried about spear pokes). For Nunu I am guessing Nunu's Q sustain > Singed.
Nunu can zone Singed hard early on, but if singed somehow does not get completely denied early, he pretty fastly reaches a point where he just does not care about nunu at all, pushes the lane to turret, and then either recalls or does something else elsewhere while nunu desperately tries to deal with 2 creepwaves pushing onto him.
Swain stomps Singed pretty hard and doesn't mind a farmfest after 6. Vlad might counter Singed? I don't know if Singed can bully Vlad out early, but I do know I'd rather have a farmed Vlad than a farmed Singed.
On October 21 2012 00:29 Tooplark wrote: Swain stomps Singed pretty hard and doesn't mind a farmfest after 6. Vlad might counter Singed? I don't know if Singed can bully Vlad out early, but I do know I'd rather have a farmed Vlad than a farmed Singed.
Yeah I'm pretty sure Vlad vs Singed is in Vlad's favor. Actually I find Vlad does well against Singed early; as someone without a gap closer or any ranged attack it's hard for him to deal with your constant Q's and autos, and the few times I've played the matchup I bullied Singed out.
hmm.. just a few months ago, Singed was just known as a pubstomper and not that great a pick. Now it seems he's feared? Is it because of the recent play by Shy?
On October 21 2012 05:29 broz0rs wrote: hmm.. just a few months ago, Singed was just known as a pubstomper and not that great a pick. Now it seems he's feared? Is it because of the recent play by Shy?
champs with weird kits (singed, gragas, cho'gath, malphite) often boast a cyclical popularity even with few nerfs/buffs
>the champ is deemed to be strong >the champ dominates, gains popularity >people learn to play against the champ >people find counters >the champ is considered weak >less people play the champ >less people know how to play against the champ >the champ is deemed to be strong
Any resurgence of Singed can definitely be attributed to Shy.
Hell, even TSM is allowing Dyrus to go Singed in scrims.
As for counters, I think Swain is one of the best. You can't farm without taking tons of damage. Don't know how you can ever get into Fling range either.
On October 21 2012 07:46 NeoIllusions wrote: Any resurgence of Singed can definitely be attributed to Shy.
Hell, even TSM is allowing Dyrus to go Singed in scrims.
As for counters, I think Swain is one of the best. You can't farm without taking tons of damage. Don't know how you can ever get into Fling range either.
Singed has a ton of bad matchups. Poke, lifesteal/sustain, permaslow and high sustained damage are his bane and champs who have any of that inbuilt + some kind of steroid to snowball the lane are good vs singed. Thing is that singed does very well vs some of the most popular top laners: shen, irelia, riven, malphite which makes him a very viable top laner imo. He can also be considered a counterpick vs some of the melee mid laners.
as for the ashe discussion: ashe can be useful vs singed but if we are talking about a decently farmed one then you need banshees on her because even with the slow: singed will have enough MS steroids to get close to her in a well initiated fight. Also ashe needs to initiate with arrow and not use it as an escape tool because if arrow hits him when he is allready fighting then his poison is allready spread out so you dont even mitigate any damage. generally a well farmed ad carry with some lifesteal and a banshees is singeds worst enemy because he is fling proof and has enough mr + regen to survive poison.
people find it very frustrating to play against a fed singed but forget how big the champion pool is that does very well vs singed. Another weakness is the lack of sustain, defense and escapes before 6 which makes him easier to gank early on than alot of the other top laners. He is kinda like teemo in that regard: if you leave him alone for too long he will frustrate you hard after a while. Also non-singed players may not know that you have to take alot of risks before and even after 6 to not get too behind in a lot of matchups.
Vlad counters Singed pretty hard. Not only does Vlad have an edge in the early game (ranged poke + sustain), by mid game the worst case scenario is that Singed starts to farm behind Vlad's tower.... which Vlad can response by farming in front of his tower..... Vlad doesn't mind that at all because Vlad scales really well and he shoves lane very hard.
so i've played about 30 games of revive/teleport singed. my thoughts:
1. it's really good 2. i think it'll get better with jungle changes 3. i'm not sure if it gets better or worse with item changes 4. revive/tele singed is waiting to be abused as a cheese strat
some pro tips for revive/tp singed:
1. on blue side with a starting-blue-buff opponent jungler, you can either take their wraiths or walk between their base turret and 2nd turret and clear all creeps while taking 0 damage with your poison (turn it on and off for efficiency)
2. don't play against rumble, jayce, vlad. irelia is a little iffy but still okayish. (ignoring the less popular picks like teemo here)
Is it better to get a second RoA on singed or Rylais?
Approximately the same price after RoA is charged: ■630 health - 805 Health with passive ■725 mana ■80 ability power
Compared to Rylais: +80 ability power +500 health
So basically the only advantage to getting Rylais is the 15% slow and the fact that you don't need 10 minutes. But I usually end up getting my first RoA around 14-17 minutes. So I could definitely get 2 before 28 minutes. So which is better?
On November 13 2012 22:57 Mementoss wrote: Is it better to get a second RoA on singed or Rylais?
Approximately the same price after RoA is charged: ■630 health - 805 Health with passive ■725 mana ■80 ability power
Compared to Rylais: +80 ability power +500 health
So basically the only advantage to getting Rylais is the 15% slow and the fact that you don't need 10 minutes. But I usually end up getting my first RoA around 14-17 minutes. So I could definitely get 2 before 28 minutes. So which is better?
roa and rilays are the two main HP and early-mid items for singed. after building one of them you can mostly not afford to stack even more HP because you will not finish mr and armor items in time.
i would not get a second roa ever, because singed peaks somewhere between finishing his first major item and the second one. this is why you want to get things that help you right now the most, which is stuff like FH/Wardens mail/FoN because you need to initiate alot of the times. A fed singed can afford to get rilays after roa though because rilays is extremely strong in skirmishes and noticable in teamfights as well. But be aware of the enemy carries. If they are mobile and farmed, then you still want to skip rilays after roa and build it after the more important tank items that help you to zone and bully their carries.
That said If you hit a good timing and the rest of your team does well without you then get rilays after roa but force skirimishes in their jungle and push aggressively try to draw attention to you but dont commit, basicly play a prolongued midgame and don't get caught. this can sometimes snowball into victory because the rest of your team will have the numbers advantage on objectives and turrets Do this as long as you don't forget to build up armor and maybe some mr as fast as you can so you can start tanking at some point. In the end you should never underestimate your opponent.
It always seems like a snoozefest early followed by garen getting a powerspike early after brutalizer (that seems a bit stronger than cata powerspike for me). What makes it frustrating is that minions don't stop his passive regen so pushing doesn't seem to faze him.
On November 13 2012 22:57 Mementoss wrote: Is it better to get a second RoA on singed or Rylais?
Approximately the same price after RoA is charged: ■630 health - 805 Health with passive ■725 mana ■80 ability power
Compared to Rylais: +80 ability power +500 health
So basically the only advantage to getting Rylais is the 15% slow and the fact that you don't need 10 minutes. But I usually end up getting my first RoA around 14-17 minutes. So I could definitely get 2 before 28 minutes. So which is better?
Best to get both RoA and Rylai's. Both items have their individual perks that Singed wants. RoA allows for Catalyst level up regen which is great for laning. RoA provides AP + immense HP (thanks to passive). Rylai's gives trolol slow.
There's no situation where I'd go a second RoA because defensively, all it provides is straight up HP. 1 RoA is enough.
On November 19 2012 05:17 cLutZ wrote: Can someone explain Singed vs. Garen for me?
It always seems like a snoozefest early followed by garen getting a powerspike early after brutalizer (that seems a bit stronger than cata powerspike for me). What makes it frustrating is that minions don't stop his passive regen so pushing doesn't seem to faze him.
Don't fk with Garen until you have Tabi and a Chain Vest. Just trolol farm away from Decisive Strike distance.
On August 02 2013 19:27 GolemMadness wrote: Why do people still go RoA instead of Seraph's on Singed? Is there really a time in the game when RoA is better?
Was this in a pro game or soloq?
I've played 50 odd games on singed this season and by far the best build for me was tear > rylais > AA. Tear is so ridiculously cost effective on him, and rylais is basically THE singed item. My build generally differs depending on game after that, but tear > rylais is a must for me.
On August 02 2013 19:27 GolemMadness wrote: Why do people still go RoA instead of Seraph's on Singed? Is there really a time in the game when RoA is better?
Was this in a pro game or soloq?
I've played 50 odd games on singed this season and by far the best build for me was tear > rylais > AA. Tear is so ridiculously cost effective on him, and rylais is basically THE singed item. My build generally differs depending on game after that, but tear > rylais is a must for me.
Have you noticed a difference after the tear stacking nerf? I like tear first (usually open ward, pots, faerie charm) because it lets you basically keep q on for as much as you want in lane, but now i'm not sure if i should be rushing RoA instead since it takes that much longer to fill tear now. If my math is correct it takes ~25 minutes of continuous poison trail to stack tear fully and i'm scared of delaying the spike in power by so much.
i agree with rylais being core, after that liandry's is good but seems "win more," and defensive itemization is usually more necessary.
edit: maybe my math is wrong and it's 12.5 minutes of continuous trail to fill tear. that's easy then. why is math so hard?
yes. If you can win games as singed buying seraph rilay liandry (roa) then you either could have bought anything and win or you have a very strange teamcomp.
this reminds me of some general misunderstandinsg according to builds: 1. "I won with this build" =/= "this build is efficient" 2. "getting more offensive items" =/= "dealing more damage" 3. "getting item X item when ahead" =/= "item X is/is not costefficient"
to 1. this one is obv. to 2. you can't deal damage if you are either dead or too afraid to deal it. to 3. this has mostly to do with either build paths (huge/shitty parts), high total item cost, delaying core stats (you need at least X armor and Y hp to survive and deal some damage) but rewards you mostly with something like slot efficiency or snowballing your lane.
I build tear in about 90 percent of my games but vs very heavy ranged auto attackers (think teemo, ect) I open dorans shield and then go for catalyst to be able to sustain better and take more damge in order to get farm
vs teemo i advice getting ap around the time you get lvl 6. you can let him push and farm 2+ waves with ult on if you manage to engage on him. depends on the level teemo is playing. if he is good he will use flash to dodge your fling so you lose the trade.
ap is generally good early game to ult clear waves faster against poke champs because defense is only delaying your health getting into the danger zone, while ap makes you a threat in lane for gank assists and shortens the time you need to stay to clear.
tear openings on singed are only the best choice vs tanks. shen, malph, trundle and what have you can't kill you anyways, so stack a tear. roa is good when you have to be strong late, rilays is only good if you have a big mana source like tear or roa. after boots mb tear and your first big item you need to start armor stacking if you dont want to commit to splitpush solo farming for another 3k.
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
I don't really think thornmail is that great on singed unless there 2 adc or ad top/mid/Jung comp and even still ombeings ings alot more to the table by cutting down on the abilty to kite singed.
Been having great success with singed. Been trying to play him vs tanky chars with out much wave clear. Start with flash pot ward and go into tear ryalis and go situational from there.
On August 03 2013 16:04 jaybrundage wrote: Been having great success with singed. Been trying to play him vs tanky chars with out much wave clear. Start with flash pot ward and go into tear ryalis and go situational from there.
Singed shits on most tanky champs top. The only thing he struggles against is generally ranged mages (Vlad swain ryze elise). Elise he can beat if he survives long enough but vlad and ryze scale so well that it doesn't matter that you are singed. Swains kit destroys singed so badly if I ever play that matchup I'd just proxy the whole laning phase as swain can't push at all.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
ADC's don't do enough damage at that timing to warrant a thornmail, and randuin's is better than thornmail against adc, not to mention the health&passive vs other damage
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
ADC's don't do enough damage at that timing to warrant a thornmail, and randuin's is better than thornmail against adc, not to mention the health&passive vs other damage
They'll at least have one of bloodthirster or infinity edge, and how can they not do enough damage to warrant a thornmail but they do enough damage to warrant a randuin's? How is randuin's better against ADC's? 15% slower attack speed or 30% damage returned before taking armour into account? Thornmail is clearly better, unless it's a Vayne who does a bunch of her damage from w passive/BotRK.
As I said, you already have plenty of health from rylai's/seraph's, so paying for extra health isn't efficient, and you get 30 less armour. The passive of randuin's doesn't help against anything other than autos, so no idea what you mean there.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart
On August 04 2013 13:29 cLutZ wrote: We are not serious about the cdr on singed thing right? Cdr gives you tons of late game utility with more goo and more flips.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart
I'm forgetting the fact that mana gives you more HP? I literally just said that it only gives you extra health. I guess to be fair it can also potentially give you some extra shield strength for your seraph's active. In a 25 second fight (and when you're focusing their ADC, it won't last nearly that long), 20% CDR will give you one extra fling and one extra W. Thornmail will give you around the same amount of extra damage JUST against their ADC in under 5 seconds late game. Not to mention that thornmail is 700 gold cheaper, which allows you to get liandry's first.
I'm not saying that other items suck or anything, I'm just saying that thornmail is an extremely effective item on Singed and that saying that you should always get randuin's before thornmail is wrong.
On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote: Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart
I'm forgetting the fact that mana gives you more HP? I literally just said that it only gives you extra health. I guess to be fair it can also potentially give you some extra shield strength for your seraph's active. In a 25 second fight (and when you're focusing their ADC, it won't last nearly that long), 20% CDR will give you one extra fling and one extra W. Thornmail will give you around the same amount of extra damage JUST against their ADC in under 5 seconds late game. Not to mention that thornmail is 700 gold cheaper, which allows you to get liandry's first.
I'm not saying that other items suck or anything, I'm just saying that thornmail is an extremely effective item on Singed and that saying that you should always get randuin's before thornmail is wrong.
I don't always get liandrys tho. I only get it if i feel I can get away with being more dmg orientated and they have more tanky chars. I agree thats its effective on singed. I think alot of the confusion that erupted between you guys was the assumption that you were getting thornmail with out getting hp first but if you have rylias and liandrys I think thornmail is a fine item to transition into :o
Also if you can get full cdr on singed your flip goes from 10 cd to 6 thats a hell of a difference. Yes I know you said only 20 cdr but the more cdr you get the harder it scales.]
And I did miss that you mentioned his passive for mana opps
Thornmail rush is very bad idea on any champion.Pure armor is not efficient as hp and armor.Also thornmail passive is almost worthless early mid game anyway.
On August 05 2013 05:30 Silentenigma wrote: Thornmail rush is very bad idea on any champion.Pure armor is not efficient as hp and armor.Also thornmail passive is almost worthless early mid game anyway.
In my opinion, the most useful thing to keep in mind when playing Singed is to be GOOFY. Have no respect for the enemy team-proxy farm and do other things that are obnoxious and draw 4 man ganks from the other team, this will open up plays for your teams (dragons/towers) There is a really good Singed player named DruidDroid you can learn a lot from, he streams at his stream
I think the Thornmail people are thinking of the InvertedComposer build, which is Tear -> Rylai's -> Seraph's -> Merc Treads -> Thornmail -> Liandry's -> ___, or alternatively RoA -> Merc Treads -> Rylai's -> Thornmail -> Liandry's -> ___. In those situations you are getting your Thornmail after about 6000-7000 gold, at which point the enemy ADC presumably has around two major items completed.
On August 09 2013 01:37 GrandInquisitor wrote: I think the Thornmail people are thinking of the InvertedComposer build, which is Tear -> Rylai's -> Seraph's -> Merc Treads -> Thornmail -> Liandry's -> ___, or alternatively RoA -> Merc Treads -> Rylai's -> Thornmail -> Liandry's -> ___. In those situations you are getting your Thornmail after about 6000-7000 gold, at which point the enemy ADC presumably has around two major items completed.
Why do some many Koreans go ROA>Tear>AA. While I think that Having ROA + Seraphs is probably the strongest build for some hypothetical endgame scenario, it seems so much weaker for a majority of the game. There is just way too little tankiness for the price points.
I was doing Tear/RoA for a while, it felt fine in matches where I could farm/bully, but in lanes where I had to play back (Lee, for example), it took way too long to get going and felt far too weak overall. I think Tear is a fair enough buy, but RoA just seems so situational now, I would agree that Rylai's and/or Liandry's seems better than it unless you're way ahead early.
On September 10 2013 09:09 cLutZ wrote: Why do some many Koreans go ROA>Tear>AA. While I think that Having ROA + Seraphs is probably the strongest build for some hypothetical endgame scenario, it seems so much weaker for a majority of the game. There is just way too little tankiness for the price points.
RoA is very cost effective as soon as you buy it, doubly so on Singed due to his passive. The stats on it are just so damn good for Singed. Tear and its associated items are also really really easy to stack on Singed - I'd argue he's the new Nid/Jayce of Tear stacking due to the fact that you can stack it via poison toggle. Getting maxed out Tear/AA can be done really early and it's a huge power spike in both tankiness and damage.
It's a lot less weak than you'd imagine for the majority of the game, partly due to the fact that Singed double dips mana stats with his passive.
I think it depends on your mid game plan whether u will be spilt pushing very hard or need to help teammates more. Tear into rylai's is better for the deep dirty farm style between turrets where the tear/roa gives u a nice power spike if you need to be more impactful In team fights
On September 19 2013 04:09 IamPryda wrote: I think it depends on your mid game plan whether u will be spilt pushing very hard or need to help teammates more. Tear into rylai's is better for the deep dirty farm style between turrets where the tear/roa gives u a nice power spike if you need to be more impactful In team fights
Hm..I actually have the opposite opinion lol. I feel that you'd be more useful with your team if you go rylai's since it gives you so much utility, whereas with RoA/Tear you have the option of not helping your team right away since you're a monster late-game with that build so there's less pressure on you to fight immediately.
I haven't played all that much singed as of late though, so I could be wrong.
Anybody tried Singed in preseason yet? I've been going 0/21/9, and his early game feels quite weak with the 0 ability power and only a bit of magic pen from the hybrid pen marks.
Singed vs. Teemo is still the most annoying MU in the game, like its just a matchup between your healthpool and how fast you can push then run back to tower.
If you do that against teemo you will spend like 90% of the game at your fountain. You need some passive MR or a random shroom will take you down to 60%.
Is it completely absurd to skip RoA entirely? I've been building Tear -> Rylai's -> Seraph's; I feel really squishy but I loooooove that early Rylai's.
On February 26 2015 02:32 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is it completely absurd to skip RoA entirely? I've been building Tear -> Rylai's -> Seraph's; I feel really squishy but I loooooove that early Rylai's.
I don't think it's necessary. There's this 2k elo guide from a singed main that skips roa completely to go tear -> Rylais and really I don't feel like I can duel any tops in the mid game so it's better if they can't chase and auto me as Triforce Irelia or Nasus or Tryn so I at least won't die to them.
Still, that time when your opposing top's dps is higher than your poison's, and they have significantly better sustain than the early game, but before you have Rylai's is really scary.
I feed pretty much every game as Singed. Are you supposed to play like you never want to duel? And if someone chases you to fight you, do you prefer to be closer to their tower than they are? So that way you can flip them and run to your tower?
I tried Singed mid but got matched against a Zed. There's no point pushing to tower vs Zed early since he has enough AD to last hit comfortably under tower. It was horrible T_T Has anyone else tried Singed mid? I wanna try again.
God GP's got to be the most annoying lane ever. You can't get to him because he has a slow on his passive, and can keep his distance while harassing with Sheen + Q. His early levels are also rather strong due to base stats and his passive and short cd Q. But it's mostly just that ult.
Sheen + Q has got to be one of the most mana efficient harass tools in the mid game too. Not that it matters too much since you can outpush him and back or back and tp.
I feel like singed's playstyle is so unique in that it's focused on PvE rather than PvP. You don't have the dps of many top lane bruisers and often take harass from them so you can't stand still and duel them, but you can push while doing little harass tactics and your mid -> late game damage in teamfights is big because a lot of people walk through poison.
But his unique playstyle also leads to him being bad at this specific matchup.
Every champ I think has at least one matchup where they can't compete at all, and rather than winning their job is to make the opponent win by as small a margin as possible.
EPT
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