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An In-Depth Look At Automated Tournaments

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 13:53:14
October 21 2015 22:24 GMT
#1
Blizzard released an update on Automated Tournaments, which inclues the rewards that can be expected in the future. I recommend having a look at the full post here: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19929294

This is the quoted version with all the text, but with only the three most important pictures to keep it more compressed.

Edit: Added a picture that might possibly show the upcoming map pool.

When we introduced Automated Tournaments to the Legacy of the Void beta, we released some details about this new feature, but now that we’re close to the launch of the expansion, we’d like to go in depth about how we designed tournaments, and share the thinking behind the decisions we made.


Why We Added Tournaments

One of the major reasons we're developing tournaments is because we heard the demand from the community for them, and we wanted to deliver on that. Another reason is that StarCraft II is a competitive game at its core, and tournaments are the ultimate expression of the StarCraft competitive experience. We want everyone to experience the eSports competitive scene for themselves and to feel the joy of bringing home a trophy.


Looking at Warcraft III

In designing tournaments for StarCraft II, we took a look at how they currently work in Warcraft III and noticed two things we really wanted to improve.

The first and most important was matchmaking. Warcraft III tournaments use Swiss style matchmaking, in which players with similar records are matched against each other, and only one player can become champion. Ultimately, this style of matchmaking means only the highest skilled players can win, causing an ugly cycle where less skilled players continually lose, and eventually stop participating in tournaments altogether.

The other area we wanted to improve was differentiating tournaments more from the ladder system. In Warcraft III, there are some differences between the two - such as loose matchmaking, set modes, set times, and portrait rewards - but those differences don't really speak to the core of what players expect from tournaments.

With the above challenges in mind, we looked at how we might address them.


Smaller Tournaments with Matchmaking

One way we felt we could address the above issues was by grouping players of similar skill together in smaller tournaments. Holding multiple small tournaments at once means more than one player can win. In addition, grouping players by skill means the most skilled players aren't the only ones who stand a chance at winning.

To differentiate winners of tournaments of varying skill levels, each tournament has a difficulty level determined by the player in the highest league for that tournament. Grouping players also distinguishes tournaments from the ladder, since it removes anonymity and lets players see who they're up against (just like in real tournaments).

When playing in tournaments, you'll be able to see your opponents' races, past build orders, and win records for each map. As with professional tournaments, you can veto maps in your favor and prepare strategies against your opponent. You’ll also have a private channel to chat with your opponent and wish them luck, whether good or bad.

[image loading]
(Is this the new, upcoming map pool for release?)

Two Formats for Play

When designing the formats for tournaments, we decided on two types: a three-round version and a six-round version.

The three-round tournament with single elimination bracket play is more common. This format was designed to be more accessible to players by requiring less time commitment than the six-round format, and is scheduled to start every two hours.

The six-round tournamentwas designed to fulfill the StarCraft II competitive fantasy. This tournament format starts with three rounds of double elimination group play followed by three rounds of single elimination bracket play.

Each round consists of a match followed by a short break. Each match lasts 25 minutes with 5 minute breaks in between. If the match doesn't end in 25 minutes, the winner is determined by who is ahead in experience points. On the other hand, if all players finish early, the tournament automatically advances to the next round, which shortens the overall length of the tournament.

In the group play segment, there are four groups. Each group has four players who compete among themselves for spots and better seeding in bracket play. These tournaments occur twice a day every Friday, Saturday and Sunday.



The Right Rewards

Similar in importance to the format and structure of tournaments are rewards.

In Warcraft III, portraits work well as rewards for tournaments because there aren't many of them in the game, so it’s easy to tell how prestigious each one is. However, StarCraft II has many portraits, so it’s hard to distinguish the rarity of one from another.

When we looked at what kind of rewards made the most sense for StarCraft II tournaments, the answer was easy and obvious: trophies and league icons.

Upon winning a tournament in StarCraft II, you will be granted a 3D trophy with the league icon that’s associated with the tournament. Each trophy you collect will display the format type and time of the tournament where you won. In addition, all the trophies you earn will be displayed in a new section of your profile called the Trophy Case.

[image loading]


In addition to the Trophy Case, a 3D trophy model will appear next to your bases in-game for the remainder of the ladder season.


[image loading]


If you’re not sure whether to spend time playing for a trophy or for a league promotion, there’s no need to worry: you can try for both by participating in tournaments, since tournament matches also count toward ranked play. Additionally, whenever we make improvements to ranked play after Legacy of the Void releases, those same changes will affect tournaments as well.



How to Participate in Tournaments

Once Legacy of the Void launches, you'll be able to join in the fun by heading over to the Multiplayer section of the in-game menu, where you'll find Tournaments. Once there, simply select your race and sign up to join a tournament.

While you wait to start, feel free to play some campaign missions, jump into the matchmaker, or hop into an Arcade game! Whether you're in a game or waiting on Battle.net, you'll receive a notification when the tournament is about to begin.


We hope you've enjoyed our in-depth look at Automated Tournaments! We're listening closely to the current discussions about the game and what the community would like to see. There's still more work to be done for the game and more features we'd like to add in the future.

Thanks for reading! GLHF in tournaments!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
AdrianHealeyy
Profile Joined June 2015
114 Posts
October 21 2015 22:59 GMT
#2
Slowly, but steadily, they are improving.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
October 21 2015 23:31 GMT
#3
That new map has SIX gold bases lmao

Trophy case seems solid. It would also be neat to have different trophy models for each season too keep the incentive up.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
October 22 2015 00:14 GMT
#4
TROPHIES :OOOOOOO HYPEUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Have a nice day ;)
Ansibled
Profile Joined November 2014
United Kingdom9872 Posts
October 22 2015 00:37 GMT
#5
This map does not fill me with confidence for having a sane map pool.
'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
October 22 2015 00:43 GMT
#6
On October 22 2015 08:31 eviltomahawk wrote:
That new map has SIX gold bases lmao

Have you seen some of the team maps in HotS?
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 01:11:46
October 22 2015 01:11 GMT
#7
I don't really care about automated tournaments in the first place, but the implementation and presentation seem pretty damn slick.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
October 22 2015 01:21 GMT
#8
See i like the tournament function but i also don't think that their implemenation is all that great.

First i still don't understand why scheduled tournaments are the only option. Why not just let players set up their own tournaments? Another option would be to let players sign in for a tournament and as soon as there are enough players start it.
I doubt it would take too long to find 8 players for example.

Schedules tournament should be for big ones only imo, ones where you can win stuff, etc.


I guess i simply wanna more customization here. Props for giving tournament winners something though, even if there obviously is still potential to improve that too (different models for trophies, etc)
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12385 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 01:36:50
October 22 2015 01:36 GMT
#9
The only thing i wish they can improve is make the tournament mode feels cool to join, with fade in out effects and good looking map pick and interface.

There is no audience so the game should work on improving the experience by above, to make it feel grande
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 22 2015 05:54 GMT
#10
On October 22 2015 10:36 ETisME wrote:
The only thing i wish they can improve is make the tournament mode feels cool to join, with fade in out effects and good looking map pick and interface.

There is no audience so the game should work on improving the experience by above, to make it feel grande

They can have recorded sound clips from korean/foreign commentators that play at appropriate occasions, such as

- "GGEEEEEEEGGEEEEEEEEEE!!!" at win
- "Sooo many banelings!!" when making more than 30 banes
- cheering crowd when winning tournament
- "REBO REBO REBOOO!!" when using, ummm, disruptors.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 08:13:26
October 22 2015 08:13 GMT
#11
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
October 22 2015 09:40 GMT
#12
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 22 2015 10:51 GMT
#13
On October 22 2015 18:40 LoneYoShi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...

Well there are people who have good feelings from being in lower leagues and dismantling people in that league. And what's better than that? Winning their tourney!

They won't probably care about full case more than "they cannot have it because of me! ME!".

And we can move on from assholes to "I am not lucky" people.
There are people who are a league below their skill because they cannot make it past the threshold guarding the league above. The people who are too good to be in platinum but too bad to be placed in diamond. These can win platinum tournaments easily but would be destroyed in diamond. And it's not their fault. Maybe diamond league is already full, maybe they are unlucky, maybe the system hates them(I know it hates me that's why I keep losing ).

But hey, they announced more ladder changes, maybe they will have more accurate ladder categories than it's now which solves it and then you could report people who loses to keep lower leagues
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
October 22 2015 10:55 GMT
#14
sounds like a good idea

I undertand about those who hate sandbaggers who stay in low leagues so they can win tourneys. Hard to kick those out though.

Big Red Dog!
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 22 2015 11:19 GMT
#15
On October 22 2015 18:40 LoneYoShi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...

As I understand, people are matched by MMR, but tournament league is set by the highest current league of the players. If you are diamond, you can use this to game the system if you

1) get diamond early on in a season
2) dump your MMR to silver level. Your league will still be diamond as you don't get demoted in season (right?)
3) own the silver players that you get matched with from your MMR in tournaments that will be ranked diamond from your league.

Unless I misunderstood how it works of course.
Timelog
Profile Joined May 2015
Netherlands57 Posts
October 22 2015 11:40 GMT
#16
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times

Seeing as mass losing on purpose has always been a bannable offense, it seems quite obvious that you should report them for it when you encounter such players.
Terrible Starcraft 2 player, SC2 EU Battle.Net MVP and overall gaming enthousiast.
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
October 22 2015 11:41 GMT
#17
On October 22 2015 20:19 Cascade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 18:40 LoneYoShi wrote:
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...

As I understand, people are matched by MMR, but tournament league is set by the highest current league of the players. If you are diamond, you can use this to game the system if you

1) get diamond early on in a season
2) dump your MMR to silver level. Your league will still be diamond as you don't get demoted in season (right?)
3) own the silver players that you get matched with from your MMR in tournaments that will be ranked diamond from your league.

Unless I misunderstood how it works of course.


You are right. I didn't realise this was possible, you are totally right.
Maybe one of the ladder changes Blizz' has in store adresses this issue (the return of demotions during a season ?), otherwise their system is indeed pretty flawed.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 15:49:11
October 22 2015 15:35 GMT
#18
On October 22 2015 09:37 Ansibled wrote:
This map does not fill me with confidence for having a sane map pool.


Well even if this is really the mappool, they already said they are still willing to change it until WCS season 1, if some maps don't work out.

I'm okay with them testing some crazy shit, as long as they are willing to throw out the maps that don't work.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 15:46:54
October 22 2015 15:46 GMT
#19
On October 22 2015 19:51 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 18:40 LoneYoShi wrote:
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...

Well there are people who have good feelings from being in lower leagues and dismantling people in that league. And what's better than that? Winning their tourney!

They won't probably care about full case more than "they cannot have it because of me! ME!".

And we can move on from assholes to "I am not lucky" people.
There are people who are a league below their skill because they cannot make it past the threshold guarding the league above. The people who are too good to be in platinum but too bad to be placed in diamond. These can win platinum tournaments easily but would be destroyed in diamond. And it's not their fault. Maybe diamond league is already full, maybe they are unlucky, maybe the system hates them(I know it hates me that's why I keep losing ).

But hey, they announced more ladder changes, maybe they will have more accurate ladder categories than it's now which solves it and then you could report people who loses to keep lower leagues


From what i get, tournament matches count trough ranked play so you would "up" or be "promoted" from ranked play OR tournament making it difficult to mass play in lower league tournaments.
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 22 2015 21:59 GMT
#20
On October 23 2015 00:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 19:51 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 22 2015 18:40 LoneYoShi wrote:
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times


From what I understood from the OP, the trophies will have the level written on it. So I don't think having a case full of "Bronze" trophies will be anything worth bragging about... unless of course your level truly is that of a bronze player. I that case you earned it fair and square, so go crazy ;-)
I mean I'm a diamond player. I could smurf and farm gold tourneys for EZ wins. But so what ? It's not like my "gold trophies" are going to impress anyone at diamond level and above...

Well there are people who have good feelings from being in lower leagues and dismantling people in that league. And what's better than that? Winning their tourney!

They won't probably care about full case more than "they cannot have it because of me! ME!".

And we can move on from assholes to "I am not lucky" people.
There are people who are a league below their skill because they cannot make it past the threshold guarding the league above. The people who are too good to be in platinum but too bad to be placed in diamond. These can win platinum tournaments easily but would be destroyed in diamond. And it's not their fault. Maybe diamond league is already full, maybe they are unlucky, maybe the system hates them(I know it hates me that's why I keep losing ).

But hey, they announced more ladder changes, maybe they will have more accurate ladder categories than it's now which solves it and then you could report people who loses to keep lower leagues


From what i get, tournament matches count trough ranked play so you would "up" or be "promoted" from ranked play OR tournament making it difficult to mass play in lower league tournaments.

You would have to dump a few games on ladder while waiting for scheduled tournaments, or between games for that matter.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 23 2015 07:30 GMT
#21
On October 22 2015 20:40 Timelog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times

Seeing as mass losing on purpose has always been a bannable offense, it seems quite obvious that you should report them for it when you encounter such players.

But what if the player just doesn't want to play some MU? I mean 3 weeks ago I left 15 games(+-) in a row because I didn't want to play PvZ or PvR(33 % chance to play a Zerg), I played 10 games in a row on the same map and it was PvZ so I wanted a change and the 11th game made me mad. Technically it was reportable...

The ladder is just stupid in some ways. For example this could be solved by system detecting that you are quiting too many games so it would just stopped lowering your MMR if you quit a game after the start. EZPZ
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
TiberiusAk
Profile Joined August 2011
United States122 Posts
October 26 2015 16:03 GMT
#22
On October 23 2015 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 20:40 Timelog wrote:
On October 22 2015 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:
So now I have an incentive to stay a league below my usual standard?

Now more seriously - how will they solve "high level" players losing on purpose to stay in low league to have full case? Or am I the only one who is thinking about this? I have usually only around 2h a day to play sc2 so in my case tournaments are no go, but I met some pretty weird "diamond" players several times

Seeing as mass losing on purpose has always been a bannable offense, it seems quite obvious that you should report them for it when you encounter such players.

But what if the player just doesn't want to play some MU? I mean 3 weeks ago I left 15 games(+-) in a row because I didn't want to play PvZ or PvR(33 % chance to play a Zerg), I played 10 games in a row on the same map and it was PvZ so I wanted a change and the 11th game made me mad. Technically it was reportable...

The ladder is just stupid in some ways. For example this could be solved by system detecting that you are quiting too many games so it would just stopped lowering your MMR if you quit a game after the start. EZPZ

Maybe games where you quit shouldn't affect the player's MMR at all. It seems pretty obvious that games where a player leaves before either player encounters the other, where no damage was done, or where no non-worker units were built by either side are meaningless when it comes to measuring either player's skill level. It's probably possible to detect when someone loses by just going afk as well and discount that game.

The system could still give the winner the ladder points and remove ladder points from the loser, but not adjust either player's MMR.
"I like the new weapon, it's solid removal with a really nice deathrattle in a mech deck. The murloc is a little confusing though, not sure why they thought shamans needed a murloc."
Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
October 26 2015 16:22 GMT
#23
On October 22 2015 14:54 Cascade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2015 10:36 ETisME wrote:
The only thing i wish they can improve is make the tournament mode feels cool to join, with fade in out effects and good looking map pick and interface.

There is no audience so the game should work on improving the experience by above, to make it feel grande

They can have recorded sound clips from korean/foreign commentators that play at appropriate occasions, such as

- "GGEEEEEEEGGEEEEEEEEEE!!!" at win
- "Sooo many banelings!!" when making more than 30 banes
- cheering crowd when winning tournament
- "REBO REBO REBOOO!!" when using, ummm, disruptors.


Automatically winning the game if you destroy your own CC!
Wat
Bareleon
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
371 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-26 19:29:51
October 26 2015 19:29 GMT
#24
Has it been bugged? It stopped letting me veto maps, it just goes to the match when both players are ready. I can't even really look who's in my tournament, that box stays up where you have to hit "ready" or whatever. I can until the next round, but then the same thing happens, can't veto maps etc...
Boneyard0216
Profile Joined July 2015
Canada32 Posts
October 27 2015 04:45 GMT
#25
I'm happy this has come out. Improvements will be made and it will just take time. :-) or it will fail hard lol
Respect is earned, not given
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10671 Posts
October 27 2015 06:46 GMT
#26
Is there going to be a feature built in so you can kiss the trophies?
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 27 2015 08:41 GMT
#27
On October 27 2015 15:46 GGzerG wrote:
Is there going to be a feature built in so you can kiss the trophies?

You can always buy bottles of champagne and do the awkward champagne opening ceremony
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 10:03:47
October 27 2015 10:03 GMT
#28
Stupid system. How will players improve if they only play vs equally bad players in a tournament format?!

Also they deny players the chance to fight vs known sc2 players even if they have no chance to win.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
October 27 2015 11:59 GMT
#29
On October 27 2015 19:03 -Archangel- wrote:
Stupid system. How will players improve if they only play vs equally bad players in a tournament format?!

Also they deny players the chance to fight vs known sc2 players even if they have no chance to win.


This post proves that you simply cannot make everyone happy.
The majority of the community cried for a system like this for years, and now you come along with a statement like this.

Also, what are they denying? They're not denying anything. You can do whatever you want still.
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 27 2015 12:54 GMT
#30
On October 27 2015 19:03 -Archangel- wrote:
Stupid system. How will players improve if they only play vs equally bad players in a tournament format?!

Also they deny players the chance to fight vs known sc2 players even if they have no chance to win.

I'll have you know that I, a gold level player, faced, and ANNIHILATED, Thorzain himself! (in a game of desert strike)
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 27 2015 14:31 GMT
#31
On October 27 2015 20:59 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2015 19:03 -Archangel- wrote:
Stupid system. How will players improve if they only play vs equally bad players in a tournament format?!

Also they deny players the chance to fight vs known sc2 players even if they have no chance to win.


This post proves that you simply cannot make everyone happy.
The majority of the community cried for a system like this for years, and now you come along with a statement like this.

Also, what are they denying? They're not denying anything. You can do whatever you want still.

They are denying lower level playing from playing vs known sc2 players as those will play in high level tournament while gold players and below in their own. Most of these players will never get to Masters to be able to play vs known players.

Also tournament format will work a bit differently than random ladder, and people will not get to play vs better players and learn from them.

All Blizzard done is put stupid artificial limitations.
At least I hope people will have an option to enter the high ranked tournament no matter their MMR.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 14:40:26
October 27 2015 14:40 GMT
#32
They're not denying those players anything. Even if they'd do open "ffa" tournaments, how do you think that would work? First come, first serve? Then pro players wouldn't even touch these tournaments since it's a waste of time for them.

These tournaments are also not necessarily to learn how to play vs better players, especially since people might not play like they would on ladder.

Why should AT do something that the ladder already does perfectly?
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 27 2015 14:48 GMT
#33
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
October 27 2015 15:15 GMT
#34
On October 27 2015 23:48 -Archangel- wrote:
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.


Thats the point. Ladder is different, becase it's fulfilling the points you critizise about the tournaments.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 27 2015 16:42 GMT
#35
On October 28 2015 00:15 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2015 23:48 -Archangel- wrote:
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.


Thats the point. Ladder is different, becase it's fulfilling the points you critizise about the tournaments.

No. You will not run into know players as Gold player as well.
People will play differently vs you on ladder and you will not learn how to be a better tournament player. You can learn that from the tournament only and if you only play vs equal skill opponents you got nothing to learn.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 18:13:21
October 27 2015 18:12 GMT
#36
On October 28 2015 01:42 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2015 00:15 KeksX wrote:
On October 27 2015 23:48 -Archangel- wrote:
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.


Thats the point. Ladder is different, becase it's fulfilling the points you critizise about the tournaments.

No. You will not run into know players as Gold player as well.
People will play differently vs you on ladder and you will not learn how to be a better tournament player. You can learn that from the tournament only and if you only play vs equal skill opponents you got nothing to learn.


Being in the same league does not mean that you are on equal skill.

Also, if no one, like you said, is a tournament player, then why should you be one? Doesn't make sense. If you want real tournaments go play ESL cups or something.
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 27 2015 21:21 GMT
#37
On October 27 2015 23:40 KeksX wrote:
Then pro players wouldn't even touch these tournaments since it's a waste of time for them.

Yeah, if nothing else, you have this problem. Any mechanism matching pros against low level players is a waste of time for the pros. If high level players want to play against low level players, they smurf, and mostly people hate that at low level anyway...
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 28 2015 09:12 GMT
#38
On October 28 2015 03:12 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2015 01:42 -Archangel- wrote:
On October 28 2015 00:15 KeksX wrote:
On October 27 2015 23:48 -Archangel- wrote:
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.


Thats the point. Ladder is different, becase it's fulfilling the points you critizise about the tournaments.

No. You will not run into know players as Gold player as well.
People will play differently vs you on ladder and you will not learn how to be a better tournament player. You can learn that from the tournament only and if you only play vs equal skill opponents you got nothing to learn.


Being in the same league does not mean that you are on equal skill.

Also, if no one, like you said, is a tournament player, then why should you be one? Doesn't make sense. If you want real tournaments go play ESL cups or something.

Isn't the point of these automated ones to get more people to play tournament format without all the hassle of going outside Blizzard programs?
And in that way get more people interested in the competitive aspect of SC2.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-28 10:07:32
October 28 2015 10:07 GMT
#39
On October 28 2015 18:12 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2015 03:12 KeksX wrote:
On October 28 2015 01:42 -Archangel- wrote:
On October 28 2015 00:15 KeksX wrote:
On October 27 2015 23:48 -Archangel- wrote:
No ladder play is different. Losing a few points if you do stupid stuff is different than dropping out of the tournament.


Thats the point. Ladder is different, becase it's fulfilling the points you critizise about the tournaments.

No. You will not run into know players as Gold player as well.
People will play differently vs you on ladder and you will not learn how to be a better tournament player. You can learn that from the tournament only and if you only play vs equal skill opponents you got nothing to learn.


Being in the same league does not mean that you are on equal skill.

Also, if no one, like you said, is a tournament player, then why should you be one? Doesn't make sense. If you want real tournaments go play ESL cups or something.

Isn't the point of these automated ones to get more people to play tournament format without all the hassle of going outside Blizzard programs?
And in that way get more people interested in the competitive aspect of SC2.


Yes, and in what way is it not achieving this?

You were the one saying that you can't practice tournament play in those. I disagree with that.

The question "Also, if no one, like you said, is a tournament player, then why should you be one?" refers to the fact that if you're in gold and want to play a tournament, you don't need to practice specific builds for this tournament since no one else does.
And if you're good enough to look up & execute tournament builds, you're probably not gold anymore and face opponents who do the same.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 28 2015 10:21 GMT
#40
No point in continuing this, you don't understand me and probably never will.
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-28 10:39:17
October 28 2015 10:36 GMT
#41
I do understand you. It just takes a look at your signature.

But thats okay. Do whatever you like. But don't bring up arguments that don't make any sense if you don't want to be misunderstood. Blizzard introduced a feature that people asked for since ever, in a way that is generally approved of(even though not final). And you came into the thread proclaiming that it's completely bad.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
October 28 2015 10:42 GMT
#42
why would you as a gold player want to play vs a professional sc player? You'd just get owned. Why don't you work yourself up to grandmaster and then enter the tournament, that way you actually have a chance.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
October 28 2015 12:35 GMT
#43
On October 28 2015 19:36 KeksX wrote:
I do understand you. It just takes a look at your signature.

But thats okay. Do whatever you like. But don't bring up arguments that don't make any sense if you don't want to be misunderstood. Blizzard introduced a feature that people asked for since ever, in a way that is generally approved of(even though not final). And you came into the thread proclaiming that it's completely bad.

My signature has nothing to do with automated tournaments, more about general design of sc2 post WoL.
Bareleon
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
371 Posts
October 28 2015 13:47 GMT
#44
On October 27 2015 04:29 Bareleon wrote:
Has it been bugged? It stopped letting me veto maps, it just goes to the match when both players are ready. I can't even really look who's in my tournament, that box stays up where you have to hit "ready" or whatever. I can until the next round, but then the same thing happens, can't veto maps etc...


So has it been bugged?
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
October 28 2015 13:54 GMT
#45
The first and most important was matchmaking. Warcraft III tournaments use Swiss style matchmaking, in which players with similar records are matched against each other, and only one player can become champion. Ultimately, this style of matchmaking means only the highest skilled players can win, causing an ugly cycle where less skilled players continually lose, and eventually stop participating in tournaments altogether.

which is why all sensible swiss events have sectional prizes. give some in-game award for best non-master, gold or lower, whatever
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
October 28 2015 13:56 GMT
#46
On October 28 2015 22:54 sixfour wrote:
The first and most important was matchmaking. Warcraft III tournaments use Swiss style matchmaking, in which players with similar records are matched against each other, and only one player can become champion. Ultimately, this style of matchmaking means only the highest skilled players can win, causing an ugly cycle where less skilled players continually lose, and eventually stop participating in tournaments altogether.

which is why all sensible swiss events have sectional prizes. give some in-game award for best non-master, gold or lower, whatever


Well they're doing this, aren't they? You get the Platinum Trophy if you're in Platinum, Gold Trophy in Gold etc.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
October 28 2015 15:03 GMT
#47
On October 28 2015 22:56 KeksX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2015 22:54 sixfour wrote:
The first and most important was matchmaking. Warcraft III tournaments use Swiss style matchmaking, in which players with similar records are matched against each other, and only one player can become champion. Ultimately, this style of matchmaking means only the highest skilled players can win, causing an ugly cycle where less skilled players continually lose, and eventually stop participating in tournaments altogether.

which is why all sensible swiss events have sectional prizes. give some in-game award for best non-master, gold or lower, whatever


Well they're doing this, aren't they? You get the Platinum Trophy if you're in Platinum, Gold Trophy in Gold etc.


good lord the quote button is really easy to miss post redesign

re: your comment, not really if i'm reading it right? by the looks of things, all they're doing is having several tournaments for each different tier of play. the point of swiss is that everybody can play together yet still give credit if you're the best performing player in a certain skill category
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
October 28 2015 15:09 GMT
#48
They really should think about adding a possibility to create custom tournaments.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
miked1991
Profile Joined September 2015
3 Posts
October 28 2015 17:44 GMT
#49
Would it be all that difficult to introduce a couple of different types of tournament? Keep the current formats we've got, but then also host larger tournaments on the weekends - eg on a Saturday you could hold one tournament for each league (bronze/silver/gold etc) as a much larger tournament. Even go as far as at another time (sunday?) have one giant tournament for everyone.

Custom tournaments would be great too, and would make these sorts of tournaments far easier for the average player to participate in having it all go through battlenet.
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