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On October 13 2015 10:08 YyapSsap wrote: I do like variety but asymmetry in SC2 has proven time and time again on how it makes the game volatile (the macro boosters make this worse). On paper it sounds intriguing but to me its the source of frustration and whining because at certain parts of the game or scenarios, the other player feels hapless to do anything i.e. feel imba unless knew beforehand.
I guess the difference from its predecessor is that this game takes the difference to a whole new level. I mean in the old game, the races were alot more similiar to one another (even the economy) than SC2 but the differences in gameplay and mechanics didn't get affected too much.
That's because the asymmertry in SC2 is in areas that can not possibly be balanced, unlike most of SC1's design.
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On October 13 2015 03:03 avilo wrote:
Terran / Protoss losing out on hundreds of resources early game, while Zerg essentially has the same exact economy...yeah, not going to ever work.
The actual reality and math disagree with you there budy Whether you don't bother to actually look at the numbers or you are just raging because you lose to zerg I don't know nor do I really care but FACT IS that statement is wrong
Zerg is getting 1 less larva every single inject. This means that the zerg has one less drone/unit after 1 inject meaning that after 5 injects on 2 hatcheries the zerg has lost 10 larva compared to pre nerf If the zerg over produces units early then they take an even greater hit than pre nerf as they have lesser capability to catch back up
You are clearly just doing something wrong in the matchup if you lose against zerg early game
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On October 13 2015 01:43 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 01:38 NonY wrote: the equivalent things between races in starcraft are not supposed to be equal. races are supposed to be better at some things and worse at others. the win percentages are all that need to be kept balanced. everything else is supposed to be as unequal as possible, for the sake of variety. it's no good looking at the "macro mechanics" of each race and trying to bring them in line with each other's effectiveness in every situation. that's not how the game is supposed to be balanced or designed If we only look at win perecentages we end up like Hots with horrible design and don't let him get there. Mech Cancer Stalkers 2/2 blink with sentrys Bl/Infestor All had Times where win perecentages where okay even tho everyone knew how broken those are. So yeah balancing after win rates is the fastest way to kill this game. This is the main reason why the game still has problems, balance after win rates cuz pros know everything.
except LotV has different new units to deal with those ![](/mirror/smilies/wink.gif)
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On October 13 2015 02:12 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:03 TimeSpiral wrote: I'd like to see MULE reverted to HotS, full efficiency.
I'd like to see Chronoboost's interface recerted to HotS, not sure on the efficiency.
Spawn Larva might be okay as it is. I don't know. I know that it can't be 4 larva.
Okay so you want Terran to have full HOTS efficiency mules... but for Protoss and Zerg to both have nerfed versions of their HOTS mechanics?? In what world is that fair??? The same world where he thinks avilo is not clueless.
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I've been watching as many LotV pro streams as I can lately, and this is the first time I've heard anyone say that Terran got hit the hardest by MM nerfs. In fact, the prevailing sentiment seems to be that bio is actually a bit OP.
I heard someone say that avilo likes to mech, maybe that's why he's feeling this way? maybe mech is underpowered (if anything), and not the mule.
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almost all zergs struggle verse bio terran atm our production can barely keep up. how exactly is zerg the strongest?
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United Kingdom20172 Posts
On October 13 2015 11:12 A_Scarecrow wrote: almost all zergs struggle verse bio terran atm our production can barely keep up. how exactly is zerg the strongest?
I have not got as many good games as i'd like since the adept changes, further chrono nerfs and mule boost but it seems to me that terran is in the strongest position they've been in for quite a while with a healthy early and mid-lategame vs protoss.
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ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving.
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On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid avilo you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving. Fixed that!
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The game is in a state of flux. We need not to jump to conclusions. Whatever they do, they really should not revert macro mechanics patch. Leave Zerg at 3 Larvae and tune Chrono and MULE accordingly.
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Zerg got hit hard with this, not sure he realizes what he's talking about, there is no extra larvae in the current state.
Perhaps he's upset because this nerfed mech the most. Vs. bio, zerg often goes ling/bling/muta which is larvae intensive. Vs mech, they go significantly less larvae intensive units. They also engage less.
This nerf basically hit Avilo's playstyle significantly, because not only does he often mech, he engages very infrequently outside of hellion harass compared to most mech players (doesn't like committing because he finds it to be a gamble, which sometimes it can be). Consequently, Zerg is not stressed for larave and can build it up with minimal trading.
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On October 13 2015 11:43 starslayer wrote: ah teamliquid you never ceases to amaze me thanks for the read keep the hate and balance whine coming. it doesnt matter whats going on your race is underpowered and the rest are OP lol. honestly I stopped caring about whats op and not and just play the game. I have faith in blizzard that they will figure it out and leave it to them. Also playing random helps cause you feel the pain of every race so you cant bitch.Also complaining and bitching does nothing for you beside waste time not imporving.
My Sentiments right there.
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On October 13 2015 12:49 FabledIntegral wrote: Perhaps he's upset because this nerfed mech the most Basically this sums up the entire thread.
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star 2 terran is most reliant on mineral
following this, mechanic play require intense amount of mineral for mechanic unit (viking and siege tank high cost)
hots you could supplement mineral with early command investment (bbyong 4 command) but lotv does not have enough time buffer between opponent powering and making unit to allow for player to reap investment in time; time being more precious resource in lotv
op is player who rely heavily on mechanic play, so it is obvious that opinion stem from perspective of someone who has lost foundation of his play
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I'd like to hear more pro opinions before anyone takes what this thread says seriously. The boy can only cry wolf so many times.
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On October 13 2015 13:14 BeStFAN wrote: star 2 terran is most reliant on mineral
following this, mechanic play require intense amount of mineral for mechanic unit (viking and siege tank high cost)
hots you could supplement mineral with early command investment (bbyong 4 command) but lotv does not have enough time buffer between opponent powering and making unit to allow for player to reap investment in time; time being more precious resource in lotv
op is player who rely heavily on mechanic play, so it is obvious that opinion stem from perspective of someone who has lost foundation of his play
This has got to be one of the sillyest comments so far. Mech play is one of the playstyles that is not mineral intensive. That is the reason you build so many supplemental command centers that do not pay dividends until notably later, because you don't actually need those minerals yet. Mech is one of the least mineral intensive playstyles in the game, even the camping style where you mass OC/turrets.
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Barrack 3 Tech labs, 5 Reactors 800 Minerals per ~27 Second
Factory 1 Reactor 150 Mineral per 40 Second
Starport 1 Reactor 200 Mineral per 42 Second
Factory 3 Tech Lab 450 Mineral per 45 Second
Factory 2 Reactor 400 Mineral per 30 Second
Starport 1 Reactor 300 Mineral per 42 Second
When you include consideration of faster supply need for Siege Tank, meaning more supply cost relative to same time with bionic, and loss of mineral income in gaining vesphene earlier for second and third bases and common scenario of early hellion build up instead of cut at 6 and power for bionic (or no hellion start) it's quite easy to see how important mineral is for mechanic player.
Although veshphene is more important resource as time goes on, it is resource that must be consumed quickly by mechanic player at expense of mineral resources.
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Consider cost associate with vesphene gas for making factory and continue factory production; until full economy, this is resource that gained at expense of mineral
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Mules are OP, Mules buy more MMM, MMM does nothing against Ultra -> Game is balanced. Chronoboost has to stay this way, or 16 Worker 4Gate in 2 mins would be a thing.
The only counter to ultras are buildings ATM. With Buildings you can choke the map and use liberators effectively.
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If mules give the highest income for Terran, but terran has the slowest and least flexible ability to spend it, doesn't that asymmetrically balance, at least conceptually? I really don't think Mules are OP throughout most of the game.
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