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On August 22 2015 09:50 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 02:55 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Scouting is a critical component of StarCraft II, and we want to increase its importance in Legacy of the Void.
This is a concerning point of view to have. Yes scouting should be important, but losing because you couldn't scout what your opponent is doing is stupid. I mean, you scout your opponent last on a 4 player map - should you lose for that? Starcraft 2 is too complex and interesting a game for it to be decided by random chance, depending on what build orders people use. Show nested quote +
During beta tests, small groups of players often arrive at conclusions concerning a topic and, even though their assertion may no longer be the case, they just can’t let go. We encourage everyone to be more open minded in actually discussing and testing changes during this beta so that we can work towards having the best possible StarCraft II.
While this is true for players, it's also true for developers. Show nested quote +
Mothership Core Photon Overcharge
We’ve been exploring a change to how this ability works based on your suggestions. Our current change is for the ability costs less, to only be cast on Pylons, and to no longer have siege range. We’re seeing a lot more interaction with this ability use due to this change, because now there are lots of decisions to be made on both sides.
The offensive use of overcharge might be interesting... Show nested quote +
Colossus
We heard your feedback that the Colossus nerf was too much, and regarding Colossi having a more general role like they do in Heart of the Swarm. We’ve been testing Colossus in combination with Disruptors and the results are cool so far. We started playtesting with their upgraded range back to 9, and the combination of the redesigned Disruptors supported by Colossi looks to be going well.
The range is but one of many things that can be changed on the colossus. Please don't focus only on one area. How about a movement speed change? How about a rate of fire change? How about changing the build time? Seems like they don't know what they're trying to do with this unit. Show nested quote +
Adept
We agree that early game Adepts can be a bit too powerful, and we would like to see a greater variety in Protoss army compositions. We have been trying various suggestions internally, and are leaning towards changing their cost from 100/25 to 75/50. This will slow down how many Adepts can be massed early on, and in the later stages of the game, it’ll be more of a commitment when going heavy Adepts. Another benefit that we’re seeing in the late game is that the army composition becomes more diverse due to the minerals-to-gas ratio. We will continue reviewing this internally and hopefully get it out to the beta if testing continues to go well.
Adepts are too tough. Zealots are the tanking unit for protoss (which is why they feel like they've lost their role). Adepts should be much weaker, but do more damage. Zealots can tank, sentries can protect. If you want more tanking, build zealots. If you want more protection, build sentries. If you want more damage, build adepts. Show nested quote +
Ravager Upgrade
We’re playing around with a new Ravager upgrade internally that increases the cast range of Corrosive Bile from 9 to 13. The idea here is to have a stronger counter to Siege Tank and entice Terran players to use different unit compositions depending on how the Zerg is playing. For example, if Zerg is going heavy Hydra/Lurkers, units like Liberators or Siege Tanks would be stronger, whereas if Zerg is going heavy Roach/Ravagers, Siege Tanks or Liberators might not be as strong as other units such as Cyclones or speed-upgraded Banshees.
Zerg already have counters to the siege tank (vipers). They want to change siege tanks into useless units again? I guess get a couple of tanks early for siege tank drop harass then never again? Because that's what I think about when I think of siege tanks - mobile drop harass units. Show nested quote +
Further Learnings From Internal Testing- Reducing the number of workers per base so that army sizes become bigger
When trying out this change, we determined that reducing the workers needed per base isn’t good for the game because many of the coolest moments in StarCraft II come from worker harassment. With fewer workers, it was just too easy to rebuild after taking economic damage, making these moments less meaningful. If by coolest moments you mean workers getting killed by OP harassment units that force players to keep the majority of their army at home to defend, then sure. My take on it is that super powerful harassment combined with the need to build 60+ workers is the primary cause of death-ball play, because both these things cause players to be passive/defensive. With less need to build workers (and if harass wasn't as strong), people could build army units earlier and move them out on the map. Also, how does having more workers make losing workers more meaningful? If you have 60 workers and lose 5, isn't that less of a big deal than if you have 40 and you lose 5? The less workers you have, the larger percentage of your income you lose when one dies. If they still want to make losing workers more "meaningful", they can make them take longer to build, but I don't see this as a problem and don't understand their logic. Show nested quote +
We also looked into feedback suggesting we reduce the efficiency of workers when more than 1 is mining at a single mineral patch. This was aimed at making expanding result in a higher income more often than not, even when on an equal worker count. What we found is that expanding quickly and often already feels like a big advantage in Void, so this change does not feel all that different in terms of when you want to expand. Also, when you do expand faster and have your workers more spread out, it’s easier to replenish workers that you’ve lost to harassment. As we stated above, this is the opposite of what we’re looking to accomplish with the economy changes.
What people don't like is that you are forced to expand in LotV, rather than it being an optional strategy. What you are essentially saying is that you agree that reducing the efficiency of workers will bring about the result you want, but you won't do it because you've come up with another way to do it (that nobody seems to like). How about you try reducing mining efficiency and revert mineral patches back to how they are in HotS?
Just because they don't implement an idea, doesn't mean they're not open minded. Every patch is testament to their willingness to try new ideas. If the idea doesn't meet certain points, etc, it will not be implemented. Fair enough.
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On August 22 2015 10:33 FaiFai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 09:50 Quineotio wrote:
Zerg already have counters to the siege tank (vipers). They want to change siege tanks into useless units again? I guess get a couple of tanks early for siege tank drop harass then never again? Because that's what I think about when I think of siege tanks - mobile drop harass units.
So you say Zerg have a tier 3 unit (viper) to counter a tier 1 unit (tank). And that is "ok" for you?, pf, when i read that i figure out that these theory discussions are pointless, a waste of time, and doesn´t have an objective perspective. For me this is enough, i give up on these discussions. I know now why after in game are heavy balance problems.
Lol tank a tier 1 unit?? i guess BCs are tier 1 units too and should be countered by zerglings.
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I know I'm looking forward to Swarm Host v Mech games in HotS! Because mech v Z wasn't already boring enough as a spectator... :/.
I get that Z needs options but the Swarm Host is so facepalm to me.
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Photon overcharge should be place on nexus bc it is a defensive spell. If you put it on a pylon, toss can build an offensive pylon and then place photo overcharge on top.
Like the changes we are seeing
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On August 22 2015 10:45 Antonidas wrote:
Just because they don't try every idea out there doesn't mean they're not open minded. Every patch is testament to their willingness to try new ideas.
They are trying new ideas, but a lot of the ideas they are trying are illogical, random or just stupid. They don't seem to have a good idea of what they are trying to achieve. This is why there is so much emotion from the community - people don't feel like things are going in the right direction.
The fact that they repeatedly shut down community ideas suggests that they aren't open minded. They have made it quite clear that they are going to do what they want to do regardless of what people think. Having strong opinions on things as a developer is fine as long as you know what you're doing, but when you come across as being incompetent AND close minded it gets people concerned about the future of the game.
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I was excited after yesterday, and now it's right back to being certain they have no idea what they're doing.
They really have no fucking clue what we mean by protoss being too gimmicky and badly designed despite 5 years of the exact same extremely verbose complaints.
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On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work.
I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units.
But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015.
EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?"
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On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?"
The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV.
EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along.
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On August 22 2015 11:10 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?" The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV. EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along.
League just started drastically changing the game with a series of patches that started yesterday. These will likely only effect worlds. I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't patch it after the ro32 of WCS/GSL conclude that would only effect the ro16 and on to blizzcon. The game absolutely can't sit as it is its beyond broken outside of terran's messing up or one off builds. They'd have to make a stance and patch it after a certain round of the leagues but I don't see it as being THAT big a problem.
And I meant more in the sense that they sent out a community update yesterday. And then ANOTHER today. I assumed something went horribly wrong
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This update seems to show that while LotV is going to be drastically better than HotS, it's not going to fix everything that it would need to fix for an independently longterm game. Here's to hoping that the further tinkering that some of the invited secret blizzard conference guests have hinted at coming in a couple years will be some of the remaining severe structural changes that are necessary for a better Starcraft.
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On August 22 2015 10:41 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 10:33 FaiFai wrote:On August 22 2015 09:50 Quineotio wrote:
Zerg already have counters to the siege tank (vipers). They want to change siege tanks into useless units again? I guess get a couple of tanks early for siege tank drop harass then never again? Because that's what I think about when I think of siege tanks - mobile drop harass units.
So you say Zerg have a tier 3 unit (viper) to counter a tier 1 unit (tank). And that is "ok" for you?, pf, when i read that i figure out that these theory discussions are pointless, a waste of time, and doesn´t have an objective perspective. For me this is enough, i give up on these discussions. I know now why after in game are heavy balance problems. That's how it is in HotS and it seems to be working fine. The problem with siege tanks as zerg is not when the terran player has their first siege tank, but when they have lots of siege tanks. So it's ok that vipers are tier 3, because it's only at the later stage of the game that tanks become something that zerg need a specific counter to. Giving zerg a strong anti siege tank unit early in the game makes siege tanks useless in the early game (outside of drop harass). I actually think it's good game design to have the counter units come out later than the unit they counter. If a unit can be countered immediately, then why build it at all? Can you please explain to me why you think the change they have suggested to the ravager is a good thing?
Seriously?, pffff. I´m not gona enter in the endless theory discussion, about what is going to happen or what not is going to happen. I prefer spend my time playing and testing the game than writing posts, if you want that discussion i guess there are many that like that too, but for me is enough, and don´t bother at trying to answer, because i already closed the window when you read this and really doubt im gona open again in a long time for the reasons mentioned before in my other post.
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On August 22 2015 11:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 11:10 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?" The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV. EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along. League just started drastically changing the game with a series of patches that started yesterday. These will likely only effect worlds. I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't patch it after the ro32 of WCS/GSL conclude that would only effect the ro16 and on to blizzcon. The game absolutely can't sit as it is its beyond broken outside of terran's messing up or one off builds. They'd have to make a stance and patch it after a certain round of the leagues but I don't see it as being THAT big a problem. And I meant more in the sense that they sent out a community update yesterday. And then ANOTHER today. I assumed something went horribly wrong
Thing is, Riot Games's patch will not only effect worlds, it will effect the entire game ongoing. They aren't about to release a major expansion that makes previous balance irrelevant. The changes they're making have been in development for months, and are iterative changes to champs that have been in the game for a long time, done using a balancing process they have been practicing for years, in a game where there are a LOT of champions. Also, Riot have always taken a hands on role with controlling the metagame in LoL, so players are used to these types of changes.
The trend in SC2 is to let players dictate the metagame - which therefore evolves more slowly over time. Even if the change makes the game better in the long term, there isn't enough time for a new metagame to develop. By the time players figure out how to use and how to counter the "new" swarm host, LotV will be out. So why waste time and disrupt the metagame to fix a problem that won't exist in a few months anyway? What happens if they need to patch it again because it's too strong?
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On August 22 2015 11:29 FaiFai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 10:41 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:33 FaiFai wrote:On August 22 2015 09:50 Quineotio wrote:
Zerg already have counters to the siege tank (vipers). They want to change siege tanks into useless units again? I guess get a couple of tanks early for siege tank drop harass then never again? Because that's what I think about when I think of siege tanks - mobile drop harass units.
So you say Zerg have a tier 3 unit (viper) to counter a tier 1 unit (tank). And that is "ok" for you?, pf, when i read that i figure out that these theory discussions are pointless, a waste of time, and doesn´t have an objective perspective. For me this is enough, i give up on these discussions. I know now why after in game are heavy balance problems. That's how it is in HotS and it seems to be working fine. The problem with siege tanks as zerg is not when the terran player has their first siege tank, but when they have lots of siege tanks. So it's ok that vipers are tier 3, because it's only at the later stage of the game that tanks become something that zerg need a specific counter to. Giving zerg a strong anti siege tank unit early in the game makes siege tanks useless in the early game (outside of drop harass). I actually think it's good game design to have the counter units come out later than the unit they counter. If a unit can be countered immediately, then why build it at all? Can you please explain to me why you think the change they have suggested to the ravager is a good thing? Seriously?, pffff. I´m not gona enter in the endless theory discussion, about what is going to happen or what not is going to happen. I prefer spend my time playing and testing the game than writing posts, if you want that discussion i guess there are many that like that too, but for me is enough, and don´t bother at trying to answer, because i already closed the window when you read this and really doubt im gona open again in a long time for the reasons mentioned before in my other post.
Thing is, you ARE entering into this discussion, you just aren't adding anything. You say you're testing the game - for what purpose are you testing if you aren't then going to communicate what you've discovered? What benefit is there to telling me I'm wrong without explaining why?
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On August 22 2015 11:35 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 11:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 11:10 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?" The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV. EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along. League just started drastically changing the game with a series of patches that started yesterday. These will likely only effect worlds. I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't patch it after the ro32 of WCS/GSL conclude that would only effect the ro16 and on to blizzcon. The game absolutely can't sit as it is its beyond broken outside of terran's messing up or one off builds. They'd have to make a stance and patch it after a certain round of the leagues but I don't see it as being THAT big a problem. And I meant more in the sense that they sent out a community update yesterday. And then ANOTHER today. I assumed something went horribly wrong Thing is, Riot Games's patch will not only effect worlds, it will effect the entire game ongoing. They aren't about to release a major expansion that makes previous balance irrelevant. The changes they're making have been in development for months, and are iterative changes to champs that have been in the game for a long time, done using a balancing process they have been practicing for years, in a game where there are a LOT of champions. Also, Riot have always taken a hands on role with controlling the metagame in LoL, so players are used to these types of changes. The trend in SC2 is to let players dictate the metagame - which therefore evolves more slowly over time. Even if the change makes the game better in the long term, there isn't enough time for a new metagame to develop. By the time players figure out how to use and how to counter the "new" swarm host, LotV will be out. So why waste time and disrupt the metagame to fix a problem that won't exist in a few months anyway? What happens if they need to patch it again because it's too strong?
Yes but that would be the best time to do it. Ignoring any type of philosophy about meta and who shifts it a change that would only effect the WCS championships or the highest rounds of WCS/GSL/SSL would be ideal for a HotS balance change
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On August 22 2015 12:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 11:35 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 11:10 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?" The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV. EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along. League just started drastically changing the game with a series of patches that started yesterday. These will likely only effect worlds. I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't patch it after the ro32 of WCS/GSL conclude that would only effect the ro16 and on to blizzcon. The game absolutely can't sit as it is its beyond broken outside of terran's messing up or one off builds. They'd have to make a stance and patch it after a certain round of the leagues but I don't see it as being THAT big a problem. And I meant more in the sense that they sent out a community update yesterday. And then ANOTHER today. I assumed something went horribly wrong Thing is, Riot Games's patch will not only effect worlds, it will effect the entire game ongoing. They aren't about to release a major expansion that makes previous balance irrelevant. The changes they're making have been in development for months, and are iterative changes to champs that have been in the game for a long time, done using a balancing process they have been practicing for years, in a game where there are a LOT of champions. Also, Riot have always taken a hands on role with controlling the metagame in LoL, so players are used to these types of changes. The trend in SC2 is to let players dictate the metagame - which therefore evolves more slowly over time. Even if the change makes the game better in the long term, there isn't enough time for a new metagame to develop. By the time players figure out how to use and how to counter the "new" swarm host, LotV will be out. So why waste time and disrupt the metagame to fix a problem that won't exist in a few months anyway? What happens if they need to patch it again because it's too strong? Yes but that would be the best time to do it. Ignoring any type of philosophy about meta and who shifts it a change that would only effect the WCS championships or the highest rounds of WCS/GSL/SSL would be ideal for a HotS balance change
Obviously if they're going to make a change they should do it as early as possible. What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be a change. What happens if the change they make doesn't work, or works too well? Is mech is a little too strong against zerg at the moment? Probably. But it's not unbeatable - Byul and Dark this week have shown that Zerg can still win against terran at the highest level. Changing the swarm host with only a few months to go in HotS seems incredibly risky considering it normally takes months for the meta game to settle after a change.
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Just replace overcharge with something new, some people have already recommended shield recharge as it could help in defending as well. Having overcharge on pylons just seems so damn awkward, no Blizzard.. Just no..
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On August 22 2015 05:21 FaiFai wrote:
The only thing i have to add to that statement :
"we don’t want to jump to conclusions and we don’t know if Zerg is underpowered against mech".
Is what?, what?, zerg expends 4x or 5x times the bank of terran at late game,and not even winning, but they are not sure if zerg is underpowered, unbelieveble.
The mass viper style seems to trade at a good enough efficiency considering the economic disparity. You can't see like less than 10 games and start whining like that. In case you're wondering, I play exclusively zerg.
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On August 22 2015 12:24 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 12:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 11:35 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 11:10 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 11:05 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:45 Quineotio wrote:On August 22 2015 10:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:On August 22 2015 10:08 Cyro wrote:Why continue to retweak the swarm host? Because it's pretty bad or at least awkward to use But heart of the swarm is on its way out, there is an ALREADY DONE balance to ZvMech. I could understand if this were lotv but these problems aren't in legacy, Blizzard can't just put the retweaked HotS SH in LotV. Even if that's all they did the first time EDIT: I should add that I'd love the SH to be fixed, but it doesn't make sense to try and tweak numbers and balance specifically for ZvMech when theres already a present solution. It just feels like by the time they figure out the proper numbers HotS will be irrelevant. I agree with you. We've seen Byul beat Innovation, and Dark beat MMA recently, so it's not like mech is invincible. Yes, ideally mech would be tweaked, or zerg buffed, or something, but I'd rather they spent their time on LotV. LotV needs a LOT of work. I think you missed my point. Mech in HotS needs a series nerf or zerg needs a buff that is only relevant in ZvT. My point is that there is an already established and successful change done in LotV, so just put it in HotS and at least TEST it (publicly aka a patch) before they move to the fucking swarm host of all units. But yea LotV needs far more work than a 2015 release window has left in it. But in all reality the game needs to be balanced by WCS 2016 not necessarily the end of 2015. EDIT: Also I can't be the only one who saw this thread initially and thought "What the fuck went wrong in a day?" The thing is, we're more than halfway through season 3. When would you make the change? By the time it comes out it'll be the finals. I think we should just accept that the game is the way it is until LotV. EDIT: I don't think things went wrong in one day, I think they've been incompetent all along. League just started drastically changing the game with a series of patches that started yesterday. These will likely only effect worlds. I see no reason why Blizzard couldn't patch it after the ro32 of WCS/GSL conclude that would only effect the ro16 and on to blizzcon. The game absolutely can't sit as it is its beyond broken outside of terran's messing up or one off builds. They'd have to make a stance and patch it after a certain round of the leagues but I don't see it as being THAT big a problem. And I meant more in the sense that they sent out a community update yesterday. And then ANOTHER today. I assumed something went horribly wrong Thing is, Riot Games's patch will not only effect worlds, it will effect the entire game ongoing. They aren't about to release a major expansion that makes previous balance irrelevant. The changes they're making have been in development for months, and are iterative changes to champs that have been in the game for a long time, done using a balancing process they have been practicing for years, in a game where there are a LOT of champions. Also, Riot have always taken a hands on role with controlling the metagame in LoL, so players are used to these types of changes. The trend in SC2 is to let players dictate the metagame - which therefore evolves more slowly over time. Even if the change makes the game better in the long term, there isn't enough time for a new metagame to develop. By the time players figure out how to use and how to counter the "new" swarm host, LotV will be out. So why waste time and disrupt the metagame to fix a problem that won't exist in a few months anyway? What happens if they need to patch it again because it's too strong? Yes but that would be the best time to do it. Ignoring any type of philosophy about meta and who shifts it a change that would only effect the WCS championships or the highest rounds of WCS/GSL/SSL would be ideal for a HotS balance change Obviously if they're going to make a change they should do it as early as possible. What I'm saying is that there shouldn't be a change. What happens if the change they make doesn't work, or works too well? Is mech is a little too strong against zerg at the moment? Probably. But it's not unbeatable - Byul and Dark this week have shown that Zerg can still win against terran at the highest level. Changing the swarm host with only a few months to go in HotS seems incredibly risky considering it normally takes months for the meta game to settle after a change.
Dark seems to do fine but let's see him vs proper opponents first, not players that are 10x inferior. Byul hasn't one a single game vs Inno late game mech unless you count the last one in which Inno, miraculously for Byul, forgot to upgrade armor.
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On August 22 2015 06:13 GGzerG wrote:
People are complaining too much without actually practicing on the new patch yet, do you have 100 games played yet in the new patch / removal of macro mechanics? Are you in GM or top GM? If not then stop complaining and keep practicing.
Agreed. I was very strongly against the auto inject change, as I enjoy doing injects as a zerg player. Having played some w/ this patch though i'm finding it doesn't bother me near as much as I thought it would. I am, however, having to adjust to the decreased larvae count.
Also, due to all of the bad reading comprehension in this thread, HE SAID THEY ARE NOT DOING THE AUTO BUILD. READ THE WHOLE THING FFS!
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re:balance issues
it can take a VERY long time for people to discover the right techniques in competitive games. I don't really blame them for taking that sort of stuff slow, and to be frank unless it's something absolutely glaringly bad, I'd rather they take it slow.Brood War took years for people to find the techinques that make it balanced today. Hell, in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, t.hawk was borderline useless for two decades up until a few years ago when someone discovered a single technique that made him top tier.
Anything that equates to "we're giving things a chance to pan out" is exactly what you want to hear from the developer of a competitive game. It IS really disheartening to read that next several paragraphs that just show they don't have a clue what's wrong with the game.
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EPT
