EPTMy thoughts on blizzards Macro Mechanics patch - Page 6
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
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monomo
Germany150 Posts
Warcraft 3. And now Starcraft 2 LotV. | ||
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AlphaPancake
19 Posts
I think one part of the complaint against manual injects is that it is often considered a more "unforgiving" mechanic than that of the other races. This results in newer zergs having to focus much of their attention in a game to simply not missing injects, since it really is that important in the early and midgame. I also understand the concern that LotV is faster-paced, making injects more difficult to maintain. However, I think both of these concerns can be accounted for by your suggestion; simply make injects give less larva, but have hatcheries produce larva at a greater rate. In this way, missing injects for whatever reason likely won't flat out lose you the game (as is often the case now), but skilled players are still rewarded for nailing their injects properly. It is a win-win for all parties involved, I think. Regardless of my thoughts on the matter, it means a lot to see someone of such prestige within the community as yourself make a post voicing what many of us are thinking; keep manual injects in the game. Tweak it perhaps, but let there be room for skillful players to shine. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
A bit off topic, but it sometimes feels like protoss has one of the easiest times producing units. A know that some people believe that gateways should build units faster as opposed to warp gateways to increase the home-field advantage a bit more. One thing I thought of which is almost definitely too hard to execute is to make it so gateways are the only way to build gateway units. The warp gate functions differently, acting more of a teleportation building: store a unit inside the warpgate and teleport it in somewhere else. What can be cool about this is that the warpgate might now be also able to warp in immortals or any other large units from across the map. But of course, this would be almost too hard and unecessary. Just a thought. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On August 19 2015 07:04 B-royal wrote: Doesn't sound like you really know much about brood war at all. You list one scenario but don't even explain it properly. You act as if clicking 5 times with your mouse is difficult at all. Casting 5 storms in brood war requires you to be A LOT faster than just clicking 5 times with your mouse. You have to select individual high templars, move them in the correct position (or select the correct high templar immediately) and cast all storms individually unless you somehow magic box them perfectly, which is highly unlikely. Finally, you list one scenario. How should that go about proving your point? Maybe take a look at a player like Bisu or Effort playing who are playing at 400+ apm with perfect micro and macro. Brood war requires SPEED and PRECISENESS to extents that Sc2 players could only dream off. You lost vs a protoss with half your apm because he knew what the fuck he was doing. You can have triple the APM but be doing all the wrong actions. This doesn't say anything about the game's speed requirements. I don't exactly plan out an hour out of my day detailing and writing out every facet of my opinion and corresponding examples to go along with those points, so I'm sorry if you don't understand my shortened post. To reply to your actual post, I don't think you read what I wrote correctly at all -- I realize that it's best to do things quickly and precisely, but if I had to choose between only one, I would value being faster in SC2 and being more precise in BW. You can't say to me with a straight face that it is better to cast 5 storms in 1 spot quickly than it is to take 2 extra seconds to cast the storms properly. And to clarify, "fast" and "slow" are separated by less than 5 seconds, in case you didn't infer that already. It takes precision to cast storms in BW, not speed. In SC2, because of autocast, there is no point in doing anything precisely, so the limiting factor is basically how quickly can you cast 5 storms. If a task in BW has 25 actions that needs to be done in 5 seconds, and the same task in SC2 requires only 5 actions in 1s, it does not mean that BW must be the game that requires the most hand speed. What it means is: "I have to do more things correctly in BW than in SC2 in order to have the same intended outcome." If you were in a BW game, and you accidentally selected a zealot with your high templar, you have to redo the action before you can cast a storm. I hope that you would agree that the best way to avoid this would be to do the task correctly the first time instead of messing up 2 or 3 times before doing it correctly? Of course there are individuals that could maybe move their hands 2 or 3 times as quickly as their opponents and afford to make these mistakes, but wouldn't you agree that is just wasted energy expended on a task that could have been done with less effort? And then lets take the same thing, but in SC2. You don't have to be precise at all; you can group your entire army in 2 hot keys, and still be able to and 5 storms in 5 places. Waypoints, smartcasting, smart Ai, everything helps you to do the action quicker. There is no need for clicking individual templars, nor is there any (significant) need to position your templars correctly. Since there is very little/no precision required here, it simply boils down to how quickly can you complete the task. Hence, I'd rather do something precisely but slower in BW, and I would value doing the same task in SC2 quicker. If you were playing in BW, Would you rather do these actions quickly and incorrectly, or slowly and correctly? How about in SC2? If your response is to do it both quickly and correctly, my reply to that is, "No Shit Sherlock." Of course the prolevel gamers will do it quickly and correctly, but we are not them. In BW, the focus is doing something correctly, and then speeding up your actions, not the other way around. In SC2, everything is more or less done "correctly" for you with multi unit selection, smart cast, smart AI, etc. The only limiting factor left in SC2, then, is speed. I can't even believe that you are trying to assume the position that the mechanics of starcraft 2 are harder than those of brood war. Starcraft 2 has SMART casting, AUTO mining, MULTIPLE building selection, EASY pathing, UNLIMITED unit selection and you try to argue that it requires you to be faster? I didn't say anything about SC2 being a more difficult game than BW. And I'm not arguing that you have to be faster in SC2 than if you were to play BW. I'm arguing that the skill ceiling in SC2 is limited by how quickly your hands move, whereas the skill ceiling BW is limited firstly by the precision of your moves and the knowledge of your movements, not the speed at which you move. "Requires" and "limited by" means two different things in this context. Also, please refrain from posting in a manner that could be misconstrued as condescending or rude. | ||
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AlphaPancake
19 Posts
On August 15 2015 08:24 pure.Wasted wrote: If this were true, Protoss would have never gained the reputation of being an A+move race because Protoss players would have constantly found things to do. If this were true, Blizzard wouldn't have gone on record saying that Protoss and Zerg were "slightly" easier to play than Terran, because again Protoss and Zerg players would just keep finding new things to do to demonstrate their skill. And maybe it is true in Gold League. But it's not true at the level balance is built around - the competitive, GSL Code S, level. They have gone on record saying that protoss is slightly easier than zerg and terran recently. Do you have a citation for a recent time they've said zerg is easier? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On August 19 2015 10:12 AlphaPancake wrote: They have gone on record saying that protoss is slightly easier than zerg and terran recently. Do you have a citation for a recent time they've said zerg is easier? No, I don't, because they never did. I thought I edited that out of my post but I see that I did not. Apologies. That was a bit of wishful thinking sneaking in as fact. | ||
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Digitalz519
6 Posts
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nsfazimi
Malaysia8 Posts
However the game still the best among strategy game but when get older ,i play a relaxing game like HOTS and Heartstone. -sorry for bad english- | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On August 19 2015 07:41 monomo wrote: You wanna know a game with basically no macro mechanics and a FUCKTON of m,icro mechanics? Warcraft 3. And now Starcraft 2 LotV. Except SC2 still has 23032191902189345248389342308788'237823984 times the macro wc3 has. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
I believe every player especially in gold rank above will feel warm and sweat after 1 game. To much micro and every unit need have special ability to control make it harder. In BW, less unit have special ability to control Brood War is full of more simplistic difficult tasks, though i can see that sc2 requires a lot of focus and multitasking ability to play effectively it was always much easier for me than BW (for lack of having to do a constant list of basic reptitive actions to stay on top of a bad UI) There's a lot of stuff to do in sc2 LOTV because there's a lot of stuff to do, not because it takes you 15 clicks to move your army from point A to B. nor is there any (significant) need to position your templars correctly Storm range is overrated, the combination of somewhat limited range (when trying to land the middle of the storm in a clump of units which requires moving closer) and templar being some of the slowest ass units in the whole game unless you speedprism them around like royalty actually makes that one of the more annoying things about playing protoss IMO :D Trying not to die to HT's feels awfully like trying not to die to an alligator that only has one leg. Just walk backwards at a moderate speed and you'll be completely fine - many of the units vulnerable to storms are as much as 2 to 3 times faster than templar - so yes, templar positioning is important in sc2. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On August 19 2015 16:55 Cyro wrote: Trying not to die to HT's feels awfully like trying not to die to an alligator that only has one leg. Just walk backwards at a moderate speed and you'll be completely fine - many of the units vulnerable to storms are as much as 2 to 3 times faster than templar - so yes, templar positioning is important in sc2. This was very true in 2014 when bio and HT were playing cat and mouse. Unfortunately, the far more likely scenario throughout SC2's history is that Terran attempts to break a Protoss before he can assemble his Colossus deathfleet, which means desperately running up into a choke where HTs are lying in wait and don't have to move an inch, and walking backwards completely stops being an option. Obviously with the Colossus all but gone and the game's tempo otherwise completely upheaved, none of these timings are relevant in LOTV. I'm speaking strictly about the past. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
Unfortunately, the far more likely scenario throughout SC2's history is that Terran attempts to break a Protoss before he can assemble his Colossus deathfleet, which means desperately running up into a choke where HTs are lying in wait and don't have to move an inch, and walking backwards completely stops being an option. Plenty of room to drop and expand if he can't leave his ramp and needs 6 gasses to do what he's trying to do. Ghosts are also a thing if you have extended warning of that situation - i see where you're coming from, but playing with what you're trying to beat at any kind of comparable level really shows you how awkward and shit it feels half of the time  | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
Instead of those game-damaging super ultra macro mechanics like chrono boost, the players should be challenged in other ways. Make harassment more difficult is the best approach imo. Compare hellion to vulture harass. Compare a reaver drop to an oracle. Compare shuttle drops in general with pylon warp-ins What I want to say is: Harassing the ecolines is MUCH more difficult in BW than it is in SC2. If you don't micro well and have a great multitasking you will either not kill anything or fall behind in macro. In the current state of SC2 you have unkillable harass units (like the oracle) that just kill a lot of stuff super fast and are microed super easily. This is the stuff that Blizzard should focus on. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
What I want to say is: Harassing the ecolines is MUCH more difficult in BW than it is in SC2. If you don't micro well and have a great multitasking you will either not kill anything or fall behind in macro. In the current state of SC2 you have unkillable harass units (like the oracle) that just kill a lot of stuff super fast and are microed super easily. I'm not seeing the difference here, really. People don't want sc2 to be harder mechanically so that you have much threat of falling behind in macro, this thread topic is aboutit being pushed the other way as for harass being harder/easier and units being unkillable, reavers and vultures are very effective at killing workers. Oracles literally die in one widow mine hit. | ||
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Slashdead
9 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On August 19 2015 09:22 imBLIND wrote: I don't exactly plan out an hour out of my day detailing and writing out every facet of my opinion and corresponding examples to go along with those points, so I'm sorry if you don't understand my shortened post. Your shortened post is not understandable because it's flawed at its core. Your example was not suitable at all for the claims that you were trying to prove. You aren't clicking any faster in sc2 than people are in brood war. The only argument you have is that it in the respective games themselves it is relatively more important to be faster in Sc2 because there's nothing else to be bothered with. This however says NOTHING about the absolute speed requirements, which is what you were trying to prove as seen from your next statement. Maybe I need to quote you again? "Sc2 is more demanding as far as pure clicking and mouse speed go." You tried to reduce an entire game to a single false interaction. In real games, you want to cast your storms as fast as you can unless you don't care about your templars getting sniped. Furthermore, I'll counter your example with sending in a zerg army against a terran mech army. If you aren't doing this as fast as you can, all your units will just run in a line and die in a line. Also, please refrain from posting in a manner that could be misconstrued as condescending or rude. PS: I was about to reply to your entire post, but unless you realize the extent of your statement (Sc2 is more demanding as far as pure clicking and mouse speed go) and its erroneousness, there is no point. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:58 MapleLeafSirup wrote: I already wrote that in another thread: Instead of those game-damaging super ultra macro mechanics like chrono boost, the players should be challenged in other ways. Make harassment more difficult is the best approach imo. Compare hellion to vulture harass. Compare a reaver drop to an oracle. Compare shuttle drops in general with pylon warp-ins What I want to say is: Harassing the ecolines is MUCH more difficult in BW than it is in SC2. If you don't micro well and have a great multitasking you will either not kill anything or fall behind in macro. In the current state of SC2 you have unkillable harass units (like the oracle) that just kill a lot of stuff super fast and are microed super easily. This is the stuff that Blizzard should focus on. you also have to realize that these are not the only facets of micro that exist in the game anymore, too. adept micro, ravagers, liberators moving in and out of defender mode, siege tank/medivac micro, stronger nydus, etc. there are plenty of ways to harass. i think that harassment is also challenging in a different way, given static d is also really good in sc2. you have things like photon overcharge, zerg players always have queens and terran have sensor towers that alert them that harassment is incoming. there are a lot of units that also place the burden more on the person being harassed than the person doing the harassing because of the volatile nature of the harassment (or what you're saying is 'easier') and i think this is why blizzard is opting to try out macro mechanics being removed..they feel that the burden of harassment in lotv can wear down the attention of the person being harassed. from there we'll see what they come up with to challenge players further. | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1024 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On August 19 2015 21:31 B-royal wrote: Your shortened post is not understandable because it's flawed at its core. Your example was not suitable at all for the claims that you were trying to prove. You aren't clicking any faster in sc2 than people are in brood war. The only argument you have is that it in the respective games themselves it is relatively more important to be faster in Sc2 because there's nothing else to be bothered with. This however says NOTHING about the absolute speed requirements, which is what you were trying to prove as seen from your next statement. Maybe I need to quote you again? "Sc2 is more demanding as far as pure clicking and mouse speed go." You tried to reduce an entire game to a single false interaction. In real games, you want to cast your storms as fast as you can unless you don't care about your templars getting sniped. Furthermore, I'll counter your example with sending in a zerg army against a terran mech army. If you aren't doing this as fast as you can, all your units will just run in a line and die in a line. Also, please refrain from posting in a manner that could be misconstrued as condescending or rude. PS: I was about to reply to your entire post, but unless you realize the extent of your statement (Sc2 is more demanding as far as pure clicking and mouse speed go) and its erroneousness, there is no point. ...again, you're talking about something different than I am. You're talking about how much speed the game requires, and I'm talking about if speed is more of a limiting factor than precision is. I'm not talking about how much faster you need to be at one game or another, I'm comparing speed to precision, not fast to slow or "what is the minimum speed requirement for both games. "Sc2 is more demanding as far as pure clicking and mouse speed goes" is with reference to the precision of the game, not to the speed of BW and SC2. If you're going to quote, don't quote out of context. I never brought up anything about "absolute speed." It is pointless to continue debating if we're going to debate about different subjects. | ||
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