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I feel that the ultralisk and the broodlord could both use some love. Here I'll outline the problems as I see them and offer some proposed fixes.
Ultralisk
I see the ultralisk as the spearhead of the zerg attack - going in first, taking the hits and dealing massive damage. But they suffer from general clumsiness, are often kited, and get stuck on other units, buildings and themselves. Often many ultralisks die before even getting into the fight.
Cost: 400/300 (increased from 300/200)
Movement: Movement speed decreased by a bit (number to be tested).
Can now walk over zerglings similar to how the colossus can walk over protoss units.
Armor: Instead of armor, the ultralisk now takes 30% less damage from attacks. When chitinous plating is upgraded it become 50%.
Attack: Attack damage increased to 50. Attack speed lowered by 25%.
This version of the ultralisk is tougher in late game engagements, but not invulnerable to low damage units (like the current high armor ultras). The increased mobility of the ultralisk now that it doesn't get caught up on zerglings is somewhat offset by the slower movement speed.
The increased damage on the ultras attacks makes its attacks more meaningful, and makes it even more important for opponents to kite well (though kiting should be easier because of it's slower movement). Note that with an attack damage of 50 and +3 per upgrade, 3 attack ultras will 1-shot marines.
Broodlord
The broodlord is a unit that is very powerful as a back line siege unit, but to balance its power it has a low movement speed. I think the strength of this unit is too strong, and its weakness it too great.
From the zerg's perspective, the broodlord is too slow, and too difficult to get into or out of battle. From the opponent's perspective, the broodlings are too difficult to fight against, as they mess up the targeting of their army, block movement and do terrible terrible damage. The changes I propose are simply to increase the movement speed of the broodlord, but significantly decrease the amount of time the broodlings remain active. This should allow the zerg player to use broodlords more often, but offer more counterplay against them.
GG HF
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Regarding the ultra I don't really like the reduced movement speed and strong units being able to walk over other units is imho bad design, currently the problem is kinda that they are to fast and strong on creep and useless off creep because they are to slow.
So I think it would be better to reduce speed on creep and increase it off creep.
The armor situation is just really weird, your solution would make it better but it feels kinda forced.
They should make the broodlord a little faster, remove broodlings and rename it to guardian.
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i don't care what you said right now cause if Blizzard really wants to change the macro mechanics, then everything must be re-balanced, not just your tier 3 zerg units.
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On August 12 2015 23:59 Quineotio wrote:
I feel that the ultralisk and the broodlord could both use some love. Here I'll outline the problems as I see them and offer some proposed fixes.
Ultralisk
I see the ultralisk as the spearhead of the zerg attack - going in first, taking the hits and dealing massive damage. But they suffer from general clumsiness, are often kited, and get stuck on other units, buildings and themselves. Often many ultralisks die before even getting into the fight.
Cost: 400/300 (increased from 300/200)
Movement: Movement speed decreased by a bit (number to be tested).
Can now walk over zerglings similar to how the colossus can walk over protoss units.
Armor: Instead of armor, the ultralisk now takes 30% less damage from attacks. When chitinous plating is upgraded it become 50%.
Attack: Attack damage increased to 50. Attack speed lowered by 25%.
This version of the ultralisk is tougher in late game engagements, but not invulnerable to low damage units (like the current high armor ultras). The increased mobility of the ultralisk now that it doesn't get caught up on zerglings is somewhat offset by the slower movement speed.
The increased damage on the ultras attacks makes its attacks more meaningful, and makes it even more important for opponents to kite well (though kiting should be easier because of it's slower movement). Note that with an attack damage of 50 and +3 per upgrade, 3 attack ultras will 1-shot marines.
Broodlord
The broodlord is a unit that is very powerful as a back line siege unit, but to balance its power it has a low movement speed. I think the strength of this unit is too strong, and its weakness it too great.
From the zerg's perspective, the broodlord is too slow, and too difficult to get into or out of battle. From the opponent's perspective, the broodlings are too difficult to fight against, as they mess up the targeting of their army, block movement and do terrible terrible damage. The changes I propose are simply to increase the movement speed of the broodlord, but significantly decrease the amount of time the broodlings remain active. This should allow the zerg player to use broodlords more often, but offer more counterplay against them.
GG HF
I agree with the BL change, they need more speed.
I disagree with the Ultralisk change, a slower, tankier ultralisk that does more damge and cost more is way worse then what we have.
Like other said the ultralisk si to slow off creep... they should buff its speed, and allow them to walk over zerlings etc. Then they could reduce the DPS... this way the ultralisk could connect with the enemy army but it wont kill it in 1 shot.
An active ability could work to... the ultralisk burrow charge was the best idea ever but somehow people complained and it got removed.
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The problem with the ultralisk is the clunkyness. I liked TLO's suggestion in that regard. Just scale it down. Cheaper, smaller, weaker. And buff its responsiveness (damage point is very high) and speed a little bit.
The thing with Broodlords is not that they are not mobile enough or too powerful. The thing with them is that an AtG focused siege unit will always be either underpowered or too strong to be handled by ground. It turns the game too much into a fight for air superiority and thereby causes hightier deathballs. I think it's one of the units that is just inherently flawed design.
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Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup.
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On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup.
Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider.
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On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider.
Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway.
The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood.
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On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood.
Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk.
Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders.
Ultralisk in HotS is still useless
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On August 13 2015 02:08 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood. Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk. Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders. Ultralisk in HotS is still useless
Oh god, lol.
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On August 12 2015 23:59 Quineotio wrote:
Can now walk over zerglings similar to how the colossus can walk over protoss units.
Armor: Instead of armor, the ultralisk now takes 30% less damage from attacks. When chitinous plating is upgraded it become 50%.
a problem with that is that it is no different than just beefing the hp
ie a 200 hp unit that takes 50% damage is the same as a 400 hp unit that takes 100% damage
also I think if you wanted to weaken the Broodlord attack, it would be more interesting to reduce (even eliminate?) the initial damage, but maintain the Broodlings... maybe even make them last longer but do more dps.
That makes the counterplay of "kill the Broodlings" more effective.
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On August 13 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 02:08 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood. Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk. Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders. Ultralisk in HotS is still useless Oh god, lol.
I dont know why you laugh... i guess you didnt noticed the power of cyclones or liberators yet.
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regardless of any other changes, the ultra being able to move over smaller units makes ALOT of sense both mechanically and lore wise
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On August 13 2015 03:34 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 02:08 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood. Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk. Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders. Ultralisk in HotS is still useless Oh god, lol. I dont know why you laugh... i guess you didnt noticed the power of cyclones or liberators yet.
Maybe he laughed because no one goes Ultralisk only and Liberator only. Normally there are support units such as Vipers and Corruptors that trash Liberators and the Vikings that protect them.
Balancing units is hard because it is not an A v B situation.
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On August 13 2015 03:34 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 02:08 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood. Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk. Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders. Ultralisk in HotS is still useless Oh god, lol. I dont know why you laugh... *snip*
Oh, here: "Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk" <-- It's because that is funny.
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On August 13 2015 00:11 Gullis wrote:
Regarding the ultra I don't really like the reduced movement speed and strong units being able to walk over other units is imho bad design, currently the problem is kinda that they are to fast and strong on creep and useless off creep because they are to slow.
So I think it would be better to reduce speed on creep and increase it off creep.
I think ultras are already quite fast - if you made them faster they'd start to outrun everything. The difficulty they have engaging seems mainly to be related to them getting caught on other units. In other words, they can get to the fight, they just can't find an opening to get into the fight. Why do you think being able to walk over other units is bad design?
On August 13 2015 00:20 Big J wrote:
The problem with the ultralisk is the clunkyness. I liked TLO's suggestion in that regard. Just scale it down. Cheaper, smaller, weaker. And buff its responsiveness (damage point is very high) and speed a little bit.
I think making them smaller is another option, however they will still have trouble getting stuck on other units, and I think the ultralisk would be way less cool if it wasn't big.
On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup.
The armor change I proposed is a way to fix the interaction between bio and ultras. I don't think just giving them a lot of armor is a good way to make them tough, because they become too strong against low damage units, but their strength doesn't change much against high damage units.
On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:
The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood.
The changes I proposed do make the ultralisk stronger, but also more expensive. Part of the problem they have is that when you get a lot of them it's hard to use them effectively. So reducing the number of ultralisks on the field helps them to be individually more effective, whilst not making them OP overall.
On August 13 2015 03:16 Krikkitone wrote:
a problem with that is that it is no different than just beefing the hp
ie a 200 hp unit that takes 50% damage is the same as a 400 hp unit that takes 100% damage
The armor change I proposed changes the way other units interact with the ultralisk. With high armor, ultras take barely any damage from marines (for example), but still a lot of damage from immortals (for example). If instead ultras take a percent damage, all units can still kill the ultralisk, but it doesn't die so easily to "counter" units. Transfuse also interacts differently depending on how much damage reduction you have.
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On August 13 2015 09:04 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 03:16 Krikkitone wrote:
a problem with that is that it is no different than just beefing the hp
ie a 200 hp unit that takes 50% damage is the same as a 400 hp unit that takes 100% damage
The armor change I proposed changes the way other units interact with the ultralisk. With high armor, ultras take barely any damage from marines (for example), but still a lot of damage from immortals (for example). If instead ultras take a percent damage, all units can still kill the ultralisk, but it doesn't die so easily to "counter" units. Transfuse also interacts differently depending on how much damage reduction you have.
Well Transfuse would be the only difference between
Hp boost and Damage Reduction
So simply reducing armor and increasing hp would be reasonable. if you wanted to change their 'counters'
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On August 13 2015 09:39 Krikkitone wrote:
So simply reducing armor and increasing hp would be reasonable. if you wanted to change their 'counters'
This is true if you ignore the chitinous plating upgrade.
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On August 13 2015 08:53 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 03:34 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 13 2015 02:24 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 02:08 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 13 2015 02:06 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 13 2015 00:59 RaFox17 wrote:On August 13 2015 00:51 TimeSpiral wrote:
Ultras need love? Lol. They're incredibly strong, atm, like broken-strong, at least in the TvZ matchup. Love does not mean you make them stronger always. Making them more interesting and fun to use is something we should consider. Right on. I can buy into that outlook. Let's make them killable by units that shoot. That'd be awesome--way more interesting than auto-death, unless you have mass ghost (then the tech switch it auto-death). But I think the Ghot counter is largely mythology anyway. The OP's suggestion appears to make them stronger. Maybe I misunderstood. Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk. Ultralisk are only good cuz they dont die to marines and marauders. Ultralisk in HotS is still useless Oh god, lol. I dont know why you laugh... *snip* Oh, here: "Liberators are a hard counter to Ultralisk" <-- It's because that is funny.
I dont know what is funny in a unit with 15 range that does 140 Dmg per shot with upgrades... that is also reactored and comes out at the 5 min mark.
Unless you consider BL/Infestor funny in WoL cuz i sure didnt.
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EPT
