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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On January 10 2018 13:41 IamPryda wrote: I honestly think the support changes are just a way to get FOTM out of the game as well nerf klepto/frostqueen top lane It's also a way to deal with relic shield on adc, if the shield quest is no longer there. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
I get the feeling this was a nerfing/dumbing down of the role they tried to pass as "adding to diversity". Maybe in their mind they think it adds stuff. Combine that with the fact that the support position is rather healthy in pre-season while they had a pretty awful second half of the year with ardent censor. It just seems rather strange changes. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
Having said that, the current Relic Shield meta is again one of "adapt or die", which isn't good for the game at all. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On January 11 2018 09:12 cLutZ wrote: Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity. I miss gangplank jungle | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On January 11 2018 00:51 Numy wrote: I think the vast opposition might stem from the fact that this change is merely removing options not actually adding anything as they claim. Instead of having a choice between getting sightstone or delaying, they strip that choice from you. They also remove the choice between Eye item and active support path. So really it just removes a lot from support without adding anything. I get the feeling this was a nerfing/dumbing down of the role they tried to pass as "adding to diversity". Maybe in their mind they think it adds stuff. Combine that with the fact that the support position is rather healthy in pre-season while they had a pretty awful second half of the year with ardent censor. It just seems rather strange changes. I get what you mean but I think they believe that so long as Sightstone is a bottleneck, you won't get "real diversity". We will have to wait and see how they develop the role without sightstone. It just annoys me that they place this right as the season starts when they had a preseason where they made one big change, then let it sit for 3 months. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
Riot has slowly been moving supports away from that. First green wards were killed so that supports could buy something other than wards. sightstone was made more and more accessible, letting it be combined and giving it better stats. This has on average always improved the game as a whole, despite naysayers predicting otherwise. (and some diehard holdouts wishing green wards were still the only option) More support players, less trolling as support, better queues as a result, etc. Now after a meta where not getting sightstone was an option, and the game not totally breaking because of it, Riot is comfortable going ever further (this was part of a rioter's response somewhere in the depths of a reddit thread). Based on past results in this direction, I think it will turn out fine. You can argue that maybe they went too far, but I will at least applaud them for trying as the reasoning is sound.. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 11 2018 15:02 Kaneh wrote: I disagree with the notion that they removed options. Supports have historically only had one option - buy vision. you either do it, or you're told you're bad and memed. This only changed when ardent became so ridiculous that it was worth rushing over vision. Riot has slowly been moving supports away from that. First green wards were killed so that supports could buy something other than wards. sightstone was made more and more accessible, letting it be combined and giving it better stats. This has on average always improved the game as a whole, despite naysayers predicting otherwise. (and some diehard holdouts wishing green wards were still the only option) More support players, less trolling as support, better queues as a result, etc. Now after a meta where not getting sightstone was an option, and the game not totally breaking because of it, Riot is comfortable going ever further (this was part of a rioter's response somewhere in the depths of a reddit thread). Based on past results in this direction, I think it will turn out fine. You can argue that maybe they went too far, but I will at least applaud them for trying as the reasoning is sound.. This will actually make support feel worse (at least higher up) before it gets better (which will be when you get to HOTS style equality). The reason supports and junglers in S2, then almost 100% supports in S3 itemized only vision is because vision is the most efficient gold expense once you get mildly good. This is why smokes and wards are limited items in the DOTA shop (and DOTA supports are even more gold starved than LOL supports ever were, but, just P.S. this is older DOTA playing knowledge so don't @ me with how things have changed recently). In some ways, earlygame vision is even more important in LOL than DOTA because in LOL a nice jungle gank can shift a lane from "even" to "GG WP hope some other lane can carry", while in DOTA you are expected to die quite often, and your team will TP in for revenge kills and the like. So, when we still had Oracles, vision was such a money sink, and JG + Support had so little gold income that it took up basically all of their income. THIS WAS AN OBJECTIVELY GOOD INVESTMENT BY JUNGLERS AND SUPPORTS (assuming a competent team) because gold and EXP are better when concentrated, but people hated it in soloQ (particularly low ranks). Then they limited (then eliminated) the Oracles money sink, made the jungle items (and made the jungle impossible for 3/4 of the cast) gave more passive income, and eventually eliminated the ability to have good vision based on economic sacrifice. All these things reduced the power of jungle & support in pro play, but made them more fun for soloQ. All these changes took away options from high level players, but made bad to decent players feel more powerful because they didn't understand the power of the old options and/or their teammates did not. But, once you eliminate the gold sinks from vision there is very little place to go for supports other than giving them cash. Currently there are still only 3.5-4 income sources for 5 players, and by making vision less powerful you make the last 2 roles less & less powerful until they can compete without the value of vision. This means either making them OP naked, but having terrible scaling (DOTA style) or just handing out gold as a team ( in a HOTS system possibly with teamwide CS) and then reworking/reverting the Jannas, Leona's etc, to make them work in the new system. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 11 2018 14:38 geript wrote: I’d love to see every role have an ability to grab a useful item that drops wards so that warding can be more of a team thing. But idk if that would actually do anything because there’s still lots of junglers that don’t opt for the vision jungle item. Something like a trinket, but we can't use green. Maybe something less blue? | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On January 11 2018 09:12 cLutZ wrote: Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity. GP5 items were not good, you had to buy them as a support or you'd fall massively behind compared to the enemy support. At the same time, their stats and effects couldn't be too great or it would again widen the gap between the champ who has on and the one who doesn't. Also don't get your argument that all junglers should have the same clearspeed. How would this increase diversity? It would just mean that the champions with the best utility/gank power would be instant picks since everything is so homogeneous, instead of considering the advantage that a faster clearing champion can offer. AFK farming is in the same category as AFK splitpushing, people complain but it's not actually an issue in the grand scheme of things. I like the idea of all junglers being able to clear the jungle healthily though. Maybe give massive regen on jungle camps for those champions who have a jungle item and smite. That way we can make almost every champion somewhat viable in the jungle. On January 11 2018 14:38 geript wrote: I’d love to see every role have an ability to grab a useful item that drops wards so that warding can be more of a team thing. But idk if that would actually do anything because there’s still lots of junglers that don’t opt for the vision jungle item. Easy: Bring back boot enchantments, stick wards on them. Remove yellow trinket, replace it with something else, like a pink ward or a ranged ward disabler that blocks vision in an area for 15 sec or so. Now everyone has access to both standard and pink wards. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
Hunter's Talisman, Hunter's Machete Now notes "Limited to 1 Gold Income or Jungle Item." Rip Frostfang jungling. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 12 2018 03:32 DarkCore wrote: GP5 items were not good, you had to buy them as a support or you'd fall massively behind compared to the enemy support. At the same time, their stats and effects couldn't be too great or it would again widen the gap between the champ who has on and the one who doesn't. Also don't get your argument that all junglers should have the same clearspeed. How would this increase diversity? It would just mean that the champions with the best utility/gank power would be instant picks since everything is so homogeneous, instead of considering the advantage that a faster clearing champion can offer. AFK farming is in the same category as AFK splitpushing, people complain but it's not actually an issue in the grand scheme of things. I like the idea of all junglers being able to clear the jungle healthily though. Maybe give massive regen on jungle camps for those champions who have a jungle item and smite. That way we can make almost every champion somewhat viable in the jungle. 1. As far as GP5 items went, I liked them both as a support, a jungler, and occasionally in sololanes. Sage's pick was bad, but that is because it was poorly designed. Shurelia's was a better item then than anything supports get now, from a support perspective. And the whole point of them was that they were weak(ish) a tradeoff for the gold income, whereas their upgrades were pretty good, as a tradeoff for losing the future gold. Plus, all your points really also apply to modern gold generating items. If you bring a Dring to lane against a frostfang or coin support, you will fall massively behind unless you get kills. Gold generation is just as strong now (perhaps more so), just look at the predicable killing of Frostfang jungle (can't have those guys double dipping!). They just stacked gimmicks onto the gold items to discourage solo-laners from taking them. 2. My argument about junglers having the same clearspeed increasing diversity is this: Currently having a safe and quick clear starting at lvl 1 is a bar to entry for the jungle. Most champs simply don't have one. But, if you simply make the jungle easier for more people, powerfarmers like Yi will come into vogue (like Shyvana just did and people cried, then she got nerfed) and you will have to nerf them, or change the jungle again. I want Yi to be able to jungle, but not because he simply can clear the jungle super fast and AFK farm his whole side while the other jungler takes an extra minute, or has to back. Rather, I want people to pick Yi for Yi. What I guess I'm saying is you remove a confounding variable for balance. People, generally, already pick the jungler (that clears a certain bar of clearspeed) based on utility/gank prowess. By leveling the playing field for clears, people can pick their jungler based on those 2 factors, teamcomp, etc, and I wouldn't have to worry about balancing champion PVP vs. PVE powerlevels with gimmicks like capping damage to monsters (Shyvana, Xin, a few others). 3. I'd prefer to eliminate the jungle item (and maybe smite) instead, and just let the jungle be the jungle. The S2 problem of Karthus and Anivia always stealing wraiths was as much a product of circumstances as it was about ease of killing monsters. Junglers back then were always going to be poor because of 400G oracles elixer & the jungle overall being cash poor. Wraiths being close to mid is kind of fun, but there should be more camps that are not close to lanes so that a jungler is making a choice between farming and ganking, not accidentally getting a nice countergank. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On January 12 2018 11:45 Gahlo wrote: From PBE: Hunter's Talisman, Hunter's Machete Now notes "Limited to 1 Gold Income or Jungle Item." Rip Frostfang jungling. RIP. </3 | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
If you bring a Dring to lane against a frostfang or coin support, you will fall massively behind unless you get kills. The difference between new support items and GP5 items is that they are incredibly cheap, and pay out for their T1 form very quickly. The punishment for not going T2 immediately is minuscule, in fact many forgo upgrading until they have sightstone or some other item. Meawhile, with GP5 items, you had to build it first item, or you'd be behind severely. It was even worse when you could get double GP5 items, if you're enemy support got some kills he could come back with Philo and HoG and basically laugh in your face with his endless stream of gold. Other reason I don't like GP5 is because there is no incentive for aggressive play. Frostfang requires you to harass, Targon's requires you to get into melee range of minions, just Coin allows passive play. All of a sudden, Janna becomes the new golden standard again. Rather, I want people to pick Yi for Yi But clearing the jungle fast is what makes Yi a Yi. You just decided that jungle clear speeds are not integral to champion design, which I don't think is true. Currently having a safe and quick clear starting at lvl 1 is a bar to entry for the jungle. True, but evening out clear speeds wouldn't solve the problem of jungle diversity, because then people would just pick utility champs. To go to Yi, if he weren't able to outfarm the enemy jungler and have an exp/gold advantage, he'd be a pretty shit jungler because he brings absolutely no utility or CC. He thrives on blowing up people, and if he can't pull a lv/item advantage easily, there's no reason to pick. The S2 problem of Karthus and Anivia always stealing wraiths was as much a product of circumstances as it was about ease of killing monsters. It was getting to the point where every mid laner was running into the jungle clearing wraiths. Orianna, Ryze, Gragas?, Morgana etc were doing the same thing. And junglers weren't that poor, they were more supportive by S2 Worlds, but running Dr. Mundo ward bot and relying on his ultimate to cover up his lack of gold was not the way to go. Discussing why jungle creeps should/shouldn't be near lanes is a pretty big topic. If they're too easy to access, laners will be able to harass or clear camps too easily. Too far, and the laners can't interact with the jungler except for ganks, cutting off an entire part of the game. You're only looking at this from the point of view of the jungler, not the laners. I personally think the shape of the current jungle, and the map in general, is extremely good, it is possible to reach many parts of the jungle from lane quite fast, but it can still be time consuming and not worth it. | ||
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