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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 01 2015 06:28 Sufficiency wrote: Yet you DO buy IE/Shiv/PD on ADC. Your strategic choice is clearly unsound. Multiplicative stats are multiplicative stats. I buy those items on Ashe too. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 01 2015 06:26 Goumindong wrote: Your chance of getting ganked is a function of the strategic choice of the enemy jungler. Your chance to crit is not a strategic choice of anyone. Pretty sure choosing what items you buys is a strategic choice. Also, how fast you get those items is a reflection of ability to farm in lane (mechanics). Considering how weak most ADC's are in the mid portion of the game, crit is an easy enough mechanic to give them substantial "threat", even if it's hinged on a random number generator. Meaning, if someone wants to go completely ham and dive the shit out of a botlane combo, they have to be a significant portion ahead in terms of power to make it so the risk of them getting critted to death is lower than the reward of getting a double kill. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
In s3 it wasn't as bad cuz you had to go bt first so crits weren't as strong. Also you can't really ignore crit unless you are playing a select few champs(ez/kalista/ability focused corki). | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On October 01 2015 06:28 Sufficiency wrote: Sure you can. For example, if you are playing mid lane with half health and you meet an ADC in the jungle with IE, you go "OH SHIT HE HAS IE" and run away. You just mitigated damage because you understand that building IE gives him more damage. It only becomes a problem with your estimation and the actual damage done disagree largely with each other. But this probably does not happen as often as you think since critical strike is not a simple dice roll - it's unlikely to crit multiple times in a row to severely skew your estimate. You see the enemy adc with IE, you can kill him before he gets off his 5th attack and you can survive 5.5xAA. When he then crits two out of his first four attacks you might lose not only the skirmish but possibly the game, match and tournament, depending on when in the game it happens. Even though making a decision that is technically right, and would have worked out another time. That is what people don't want happening. A player being able to make extremely fast judgement calls on wether going in or backing off is correct should be rewarded. This is what is amazing about watching Pros. It shouldn't be that backing off is always correct because RNJesus! This example is of course taken to the extreme. It's usually a lot less clear what happens in a big team fight. There are plenty of times where a fight ends up the exact opposite of what players, casters, viewers, whoever thought it would. Sure, sometimes it was just a wrong call, but many times it was simply luck with crits or lack of crits. | ||
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
Overall it's just a bad mechanic. I can see why they originally put it in the game but it has no place in a competetive game in my opinion. Moreso because they've eliminated all the other random mechanics. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:01 nafta wrote: It honestly blows my mind that people defend crit. I have never met a person who has told me "I main ad and I don't mind crit". Not even like but be neutral towards it. Dunno at least for me even that one time I get 2 crits with 10% and get a kill from 3 autos it just feels cheap not like I earned it. In s3 it wasn't as bad cuz you had to go bt first so crits weren't as strong. Also you can't really ignore crit unless you are playing a select few champs(ez/kalista/ability focused corki). I mostly play Ez when I ADC. Crit's not really an issue, as ADC vs ADC is meaningless once laning phase is over, and there are way to defensively play out the lane once crit is introduced. On October 01 2015 07:09 Kaethis wrote: It also feels really cheesy when you come to lane as Yasuo with 5% or something, crit someone, hit minions a few times (because crit isn't 100% random hurdur) then crit him again and just randomly win lane because of it. Same with Trynd. Overall it's just a bad mechanic. I can see why they originally put it in the game but it has no place in a competetive game in my opinion. Moreso because they've eliminated all the other random mechanics. Yasuo, is w.e, since his big winning play is usually either level 6 or shiv timing, either of which correspond with his obvious powerspike, that if you're dying outside of those timing, chances are you most likely misplayed or yas got 1 out of 100 luckerdog chance. Trynd's passive is supposed to work that way... you get more crit the more rage/fury you build up. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:10 wei2coolman wrote: I mostly play Ez when I ADC. Crit's not really an issue, as ADC vs ADC is meaningless once laning phase is over, and there are way to defensively play out the lane once crit is introduced. Clearly it is meaningless yet every single high rated adc complains about it in exactly that situation after you buy your first item :D | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:11 nafta wrote: Clearly it is meaningless yet every single high rated adc complains about it in exactly that situation after you buy your first item :D The only ones complaining about it are the ones who want to duel whenever they can, so they want to remove as many variables as possible outside of skill match up. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:01 nafta wrote: It honestly blows my mind that people defend crit. I have never met a person who has told me "I main ad and I don't mind crit". Not even like but be neutral towards it. I really like crit, but I also have a serious gambling problem. I don't think it's good for the game at the competitive level because the "edge cases" are possible/frequent enough to have a serious impact on people's lives, but I'm ambivalent towards it at the casual level and like it personally. I'm also still bitter about sword of the divine being taken out, it was the best for getting quinn's sick multi-arrow crit animation four times in a row w/ the mark thing, but also throbbed the fuck out of my gambling problem despite removing the rng from the situation. edit: imo there's enough good alternatives to the current system of crit (that don't completely remove crit) that keeping it as is just seems silly in comparison. also I want SotD back, ideally in a way that introduces it as a meaningful choice, but I'd take whatever I can get. 100% crit chance as a flat stat and nothing else? Something like [100 - (crit%)] crit or AS? Upgrade/enchantment for IE? Lots of possibilities but no probabilities. It'd satisfy the crit-worshippers like me and everyone else can play a better game where they never have to buy it or encounter it  | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
Last base defence, i 1v1 their trist, we both have 55% crit, i get 5 autos off she gets 4. She gets 3 crits i get 1. They end off that, whereas if i'd won, i could have turned, killed their support and me and xin can go and get baron, and potentially snowball off that. How is that fun or skill based or anything, literally any of those going the other way could have easily turned the game, and yet all 6 situations where we could have potentially won the game or gained a huge advantage, we lose because of a 45% chance. What a skillful mechanic. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:18 Goumindong wrote: Does no one really remember when phage made cop the best ADC in the world? Implying that wasn't one of the dankest meme's of S2. Shit was hilarious. But, for reals, even during phage's "op'd" phase, Cop was still significantly worse than DL and Chaox. On October 01 2015 07:20 killerdog wrote: My last game, i was jinx. 5 seperate teamfights i got a last rocket off on a guy as he was running/flashing away, (two of them i flashed for it knowing if i got the crit, we win the teamfight easily,) if he'd gotten crit he would have died, i'd have gotten a reset, any of those could have changed the game very dramatically. I had 55% crit in all of these except one. Last base defence, i 1v1 their trist, we both have 55% crit, i get 5 autos off she gets 4. She gets 3 crits i get 1. They end off that, whereas if i'd won, i could have turned, killed their support and me and xin can go and get baron, and potentially snowball off that. How is that fun or skill based or anything, literally any of those going the other way could have easily turned the game, and yet all 6 situations where we could have potentially won the game or gained a huge advantage, we lose because of a 45% chance. What a skillful mechanic. So you're saying there's absolutely no way you could have played that game better so that the game didn't hinge off of that singular moment? | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:23 wei2coolman wrote: Implying that wasn't one of the dankest meme's of S2. Shit was hilarious. But, for reals, even during phage's "op'd" phase, Cop was still significantly worse than DL and Chaox. So you're saying there's absolutely no way you could have played that game better so that the game didn't hinge off of that singular moment? Not without playing objectively inferiorly to someone who was willing to take those risks, you have a choice between playing at 90% capacity with no variance, or at 100% capacity with a +-15% variance. The second option is the one that wins more games overall, but it loses some games purely due to rng. It's an objectively lower EV play to not go for the calculated risk plays. And the dumbest thing is, even if you decide to play objectively worse just to avoid situations where you *might* get unlucky (and can i just remind you about the fact you're straight up saying not to take calculated risks in a game that is entirely based on imperfect information and decision making, just take a second to realise what you're saying here,) if the other guy decides to make those plays then your game still has a very solid chance of getting decided by those rng moments, regardless of whether you initiate them or not. I could just as likely (in fact more likely then not) have got a crit in several of those, and then the enemy team loses just because I made a high variance play and got lucky. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:18 Goumindong wrote: Does no one really remember when phage made cop the best ADC in the world? Yes, let's all argue based on exaggerated anecdotal evidence. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:29 Sufficiency wrote: Yes, let's all argue based on exaggerated anecdotal evidence. Did the last page of me explaining how exactly the mechanics must work at their absolute most generous to crit not happen? | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 01 2015 07:48 Goumindong wrote: Did the last page of me explaining how exactly the mechanics must work at their absolute most generous to crit not happen? You didn't explain anything though. And no it has nothing to do with the law of large numbers. No, just because you wrote down a random formula does not mean anything. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
*though i am not sure it has a name. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 01 2015 08:12 Caiada wrote: Nobody knows exactly how their psuedorandom generator works or how actual crit% works on a per-fight basis, so the technical discussions are pointless. Analysis is the only thing that's going to answer shit here, and until somebody argues or properly shows that an individual fight is going to completely turn a game (outside of soloq; fuck soloq), crit looks a-ok. that's pretty much my argument, there's enough auto attacks in the game at each common breakpoint for crit chance that the other strategics and skill variable play dwarves outliers in stacked crits. | ||
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