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On October 12 2015 22:42 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 22:28 Ketara wrote:
There's endless examples of pro players being slow to adapt to item changes.
It is really puzzling to me.
I have to disagree with the nafta on Rammus. It's pretty obviously a 2nd or latest 3rd item buy on Rammus.
Pretty sure Scips Rammus build is cinderhulk > FotM. Just because scip builds it doesn't mean it's the best build, it's strong and it fits with his play style, but there are plenty of other high elo rammus mains who rush out dmp and mobis, or whatever else. Builds are only as good as you execute them Besides, in pro play junglers get way less farm then scip tends to get in soloq, so the period where you're just on cinderhulk before you start getting big tank items is wayyy longer then it would be in a soloq game.
That's basically exactly the reason why FotM passive seems so good to me in pro play. You get gold, the enemy jungler doesn't.
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Vs teams with magic damage locket is always better than fotm so ignoring that situation I would agree as 2nd/3rd item but going cinderhulk>locket>fotm seems garbage vs a balanced team.
Problem nobody really plays much rammus and our games can't really be used for any logical item builds or w/e so it is hard to compare it. Kinda surprised by how few rammus mains there are after looking through op.gg
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How is it garbage on Rammus vs a balanced team?
On other tanks you get it 4th or 5th because you need to buy resists first.
But on Rammus you don't have to.
You're really underestimating defensive ball curl. It's a 6 second buff and doesn't have to be used immediately in the fight. Just ignoring him till it wears off and then bursting him down isn't a fantastic strategy.
If you compare it to getting a randuins lets say, you can for about the same price get FotM and 2 cloth armors, so 500 HP, 30 armor, 10% CDR and shield active vs. 400 HP, 60 armor and slow active.
Just looking at it in pure selfish terms and ignoring the gold generation it seems awesome, IMO.
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Most junglers have a pretty diverse champ pool, so while there's a lot of jungle mains there's very few jungle players who could be said to main one champ. Jungle "viability" is the most impacted by buffs/nerfs, so you have to be able to play a few champs so you don't go from Diamond -> Gold because Riot made Elise or something crap.
Rammus is a bit better now, though he still suffers from the "I need all my skills" problem. If you can pick him into a team with minimal hard CC, he's very strong. Most junglers know how to play him, but he just doesn't bring the pick potential you want from junglers these days like Elise, Gragas, Ekko, etc.
Shield on Rammus is nice and apparently FotM is pretty gold efficient, so I'm okay with buying it. Shields are obv good if you have a resist steroid and vice versa. Still, you have to work in some sort of slow earlier on to help you stick to targets and keep them in range of your ult.
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Plus the earlier you get fotm the less your lanes complain about taxing. Not to mention the heal when you visit but don't get a kill.
Edit: additionally you don't have to use the shield in fights you can use it on camps as an effective HP5 buff
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I thought Rammus really wanted to build Thornmail, in total defiance of the "champs with resist steroids shouldn't build more resists", because of the Thornmail rework being manna from heaven for Rammus. Maybe the build should be:
Cinderhulk -> Thornmail -> Face of the Mountain -> MR item] -> Dead Man's Plate?
In any event the FotM Church has skyrocketed my ARAM win rate. You think it's strong in SR, it's flat-out broken good in ARAM. I basically never trade away tanks now, because they'll do some dumb shit like that one Malphite who waited in base so he could buy BF Sword, when any noob like me can just build FOTM/Aegis to start for ARAMfreelo.
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On October 13 2015 02:38 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I thought Rammus really wanted to build Thornmail, in total defiance of the "champs with resist steroids shouldn't build more resists", because of the Thornmail rework being manna from heaven for Rammus. Maybe the build should be:
Cinderhulk -> Thornmail -> Face of the Mountain -> MR item] -> Dead Man's Plate?
In any event the FotM Church has skyrocketed my ARAM win rate. You think it's strong in SR, it's flat-out broken good in ARAM. I basically never trade away tanks now, because they'll do some dumb shit like that one Malphite who waited in base so he could buy BF Sword, when any noob like me can just build FOTM/Aegis to start for ARAMfreelo.
Rammus really wants some HP in his second item. His base HP isn't that good that just getting Cinderhulk makes up for it, he wants more than that.
If the enemy has a lot of magic damage it also doesn't really work since you don't have much HP yet and just get blown up.
I've tried it a couple times vs all AD teams and even in that situation I felt like I had too much armor and too little HP for maximum survivability.
The passive is also not really all that great since in these early skirmishes people tend to use way more abilities than autoattacks, so you don't really get that much value out of it yet. Of course it's really good later in the game when the ADCs get stronger.
Also if you taunt someone in that period of time they usually die anyway so you don't really need the extra damage from thornmail passive there.
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I actually think Face of the Mountain is kind of a trap in ARAM. It's good if you have resists already, but by itself it kind of sucks. Having 500 extra health with no resists isn't that good.
If you can get away with building it without it hurting you too much, it's a crap ton of extra gold over time though. And yeah, the shield is godly of course. But I see so many people build it first and just die instantly because they have no resists for so long.
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I don't see a problem with building FoTM first in ARAM and just stacking resists afterwards (as in build the armor/MR component of your 2nd defensive item) as a tank. If you're a damage dealer who wants his first 2 items to be 1 defense/1 offense, yeah I agree FoTM may not be right 1st item.
With Cinderhulk, you usually want to get another item with HP afterwards so you take advantage of the extra bonus HP effect. That creates the largest "power spike", though I guess people usually use that term when describing a big jump in offensive ability rather than utility or defense oddly. Also, your E defense steroid is pretty stupidly large-- 40 at lvl 1, up to 120 at lvl 5 (IIRC it scales 20/point?) so resists aren't the most pressing need for Rammus. Naturally, he has a relatively low HP pool for the sake of balance. 
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On October 13 2015 05:56 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:38 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I thought Rammus really wanted to build Thornmail, in total defiance of the "champs with resist steroids shouldn't build more resists", because of the Thornmail rework being manna from heaven for Rammus. Maybe the build should be:
Cinderhulk -> Thornmail -> Face of the Mountain -> MR item] -> Dead Man's Plate?
In any event the FotM Church has skyrocketed my ARAM win rate. You think it's strong in SR, it's flat-out broken good in ARAM. I basically never trade away tanks now, because they'll do some dumb shit like that one Malphite who waited in base so he could buy BF Sword, when any noob like me can just build FOTM/Aegis to start for ARAMfreelo. Rammus really wants some HP in his second item. His base HP isn't that good that just getting Cinderhulk makes up for it, he wants more than that. If the enemy has a lot of magic damage it also doesn't really work since you don't have much HP yet and just get blown up. I've tried it a couple times vs all AD teams and even in that situation I felt like I had too much armor and too little HP for maximum survivability. The passive is also not really all that great since in these early skirmishes people tend to use way more abilities than autoattacks, so you don't really get that much value out of it yet. Of course it's really good later in the game when the ADCs get stronger. Also if you taunt someone in that period of time they usually die anyway so you don't really need the extra damage from thornmail passive there.
Isn't he already building Cinderhulk first?
Anyway, I actually think a second source of damage for jungle clear is more important. Hence Thornmail.
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I asked Scip to comment on this Rammus shit in Skype because its one of his most played champions, and he said he "doesn't care enough" to post, but said the following things on Skype:
Buying thornmail to clear is dumb, because at that point of the game you don't clear much.
It doesn't generate as much value over time as FotM does (gold passive).
If the enemy team has any magic damage, its bad in terms of teamfight tankiness.
Against a 100% phys damage team, thornmail second "might" be acceptable vs FotM, depending on how much damage vs tankiness he thinks he needs to bring to the team.
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On October 13 2015 07:49 Ketara wrote:
I asked Scip to comment on this Rammus shit in Skype because its one of his most played champions, and he said he "doesn't care enough" to post, but said the following things on Skype:
Buying thornmail to clear is dumb, because at that point of the game you don't clear much.
It doesn't generate as much value over time as FotM does (gold passive).
If the enemy team has any magic damage, its bad in terms of teamfight tankiness.
Against a 100% phys damage team, thornmail second "might" be acceptable vs FotM, depending on how much damage vs tankiness he thinks he needs to bring to the team.
Early Thornmail isn't really a tank item at all for rammus, it's a damage item.
You get it second if you're snowballing vs heavy ad teams and want to wreck faces.
And I think you're overestimating the power of fotm. Yes it's a nice item, but it does delay your core. Getting a fast randuins/dmp lets you tower dive with complete impunity in the early game, which is HUGE for snowballing lanes. Getting a fast locket can completely turn teamfightss, getting a relatively early thornmail can let you 1v2/1v3 the enemy backline if fed, the adc literally can't attack you until 3+ items.
FotM is good if you have teammates with high damage who are squishy, it's decent for gold generation and pretty good for just coming into lane and taking tower (because you can shield your ally if the enemy tries to poke you off tower) but you lose a lot from taking it too, both in solo carry potential, and in some teamfighting situations.
On October 13 2015 05:56 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 02:38 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I thought Rammus really wanted to build Thornmail, in total defiance of the "champs with resist steroids shouldn't build more resists", because of the Thornmail rework being manna from heaven for Rammus. Maybe the build should be:
Cinderhulk -> Thornmail -> Face of the Mountain -> MR item] -> Dead Man's Plate?
In any event the FotM Church has skyrocketed my ARAM win rate. You think it's strong in SR, it's flat-out broken good in ARAM. I basically never trade away tanks now, because they'll do some dumb shit like that one Malphite who waited in base so he could buy BF Sword, when any noob like me can just build FOTM/Aegis to start for ARAMfreelo. Rammus really wants some HP in his second item. His base HP isn't that good that just getting Cinderhulk makes up for it, he wants more than that. If the enemy has a lot of magic damage it also doesn't really work since you don't have much HP yet and just get blown up. I've tried it a couple times vs all AD teams and even in that situation I felt like I had too much armor and too little HP for maximum survivability. The passive is also not really all that great since in these early skirmishes people tend to use way more abilities than autoattacks, so you don't really get that much value out of it yet. Of course it's really good later in the game when the ADCs get stronger. Also if you taunt someone in that period of time they usually die anyway so you don't really need the extra damage from thornmail passive there.
Have you tried cinderhulk ->tabi -> dmp -> thornmail?
You lose the shield and cdr for an ms boost, cc on autos, ton of extra armour, 100 extra flat hp and a considerable damage boost from the extra armour on your autos and w reflection. + this lets you just grab giants belt + chain vest early on, which is SO GOOD for tower diving top.
I like fotm in typical games, but if i'm snowballing or falling very behind, then i find it either doesn't let me abuse my lead hard enough, or delays my core for so long that I'm just not useful in teamfights.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 12 2015 22:36 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 22:28 Ketara wrote:
There's endless examples of pro players being slow to adapt to item changes.
It is really puzzling to me.
I have to disagree with the nafta on Rammus. It's pretty obviously a 2nd or latest 3rd item buy on Rammus.
Pretty sure Scips Rammus build is cinderhulk > FotM. It is, sometimes he goes cinderhulk -> locket -> FotM but otherwise what you said. Nafta, I don't really see how people can ignore you with your W up since you mostly activate it either when you get focused or when you taunt someone so in both cases you're not getting ignored.
I pretty much never go locket before FotM, because I'm greedy bitch, it maybe should be considered against triple AP teams though.
On October 12 2015 22:42 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 22:28 Ketara wrote:
There's endless examples of pro players being slow to adapt to item changes.
It is really puzzling to me.
I have to disagree with the nafta on Rammus. It's pretty obviously a 2nd or latest 3rd item buy on Rammus.
Pretty sure Scips Rammus build is cinderhulk > FotM. Just because scip builds it doesn't mean it's the best build, it's strong and it fits with his play style, but there are plenty of other high elo rammus mains who rush out dmp and mobis, or whatever else. Builds are only as good as you execute them Besides, in pro play junglers get way less farm then scip tends to get in soloq, so the period where you're just on cinderhulk before you start getting big tank items is wayyy longer then it would be in a soloq game.
I haven't been watching pro play that much lately, but is that still correct? I've seen a few jungle Gragases with very respectable CS and same goes for the traditionally more farmy junglers. I think that this build can be adapted to go Cinderhulk->Sightstone->things if you really really want, Rammus is relatively good at warding and it's decent value, so why not.
The thing about being on small items for long after Cinderhulk isn't necessarily an argument against FotM, I consider the buildpath of Runic Shield->Targons to be easily the best build path of any tank item. At least for Rammus, yay hp.
On October 12 2015 07:59 AlterKot wrote:
Wait it's church of Howard? I thought it was Scip's idea (unless the "toplane" part is important).
Also don't worry about people reporting you I've yet to be banned for building fotm instead of warmogs... and way worse things.
Yep, it's the Chuch of Howard. He had the idea to build it on top laners, told me about it and I went WAAAIT is the goldgen restriction still in place and then we discovered it wasn't.
@building it in soloQ I've had both teams go "wtf you building Rammus" but I just pretended I was a fucking roleplayer and told them ALL the shields!! (and I carried and they were like WTF u so smart) but that happened only once lol.
On October 12 2015 22:15 nafta wrote:
Problem is it isn't good until 4/5th item even on tanks in top/jungle so by the time you could get it the game is over more than likely( and it is dogshit if you aren't a tank).
If you're talking about FotM here it's really good on all of Rammus, Nunu, Gragas and Sejuani and maybe some more junglers as a 2nd item imoimo.
^^^^^^^^ about Thornmail yeah, it's really a dmg item against phys only teams, the clear increase isn't entirely without value but it's not much value either, it's really for when you need to kill some mfs because nobody else will. I think it's justifiable as a 2nd item sometimes (also Ninja Tabi is against phys only teams imoimo.)
ehhh I'm not entirely sure but I think if you do the math for towerdiving with Rammus I don't think you'd find much difference between FotM and Randuins at all, the armor shred should really make the difference kinda negligable. FotM also costs 550 gold less than DMP which isn't a negligable amount of money. That's like, almost Ninja Tabi. If you compare FotM+Ninja Tabi to DMP I'd highly prefer the former even in the best case scenario for DMP.
One thing I'd mention that's non-negligable value on FotM is the heal+killing creeps faster. On Rammus with 2nd item other than FotM you are actually fairly likely to fight at less than full hp (or be forced to buy some hp pots) but with FotM I find that's the case a lot less often. Just food for thought.
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On October 13 2015 08:11 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 22:15 nafta wrote:
Problem is it isn't good until 4/5th item even on tanks in top/jungle so by the time you could get it the game is over more than likely( and it is dogshit if you aren't a tank). If you're talking about FotM here it's really good on all of Rammus, Nunu, Gragas and Sejuani and maybe some more junglers as a 2nd item imoimo. ehhh I'm not entirely sure but I think if you do the math for towerdiving with Rammus I don't think you'd find much difference between FotM and Randuins at all, the armor shred should really make the difference kinda negligable. One thing I'd mention that's non-negligable value on FotM is the heal+killing creeps faster. On Rammus with 2nd item other than FotM you are actually fairly likely to fight at less than full hp (or be forced to buy some hp pots) but with FotM I find that's the case a lot less often. Just food for thought.
Rushing randuins is dumb outside of yasuo comps, (no idea if it's worth there,) All the other challenger/masters rammus one tricks i saw all prioritised dmp really highly, the movement speed and cc make ganks way more powerful, and it gives straight up 200 more hp then randuins. At 2k hp, you're giving up a 200hp shield for 115 flat hp + 60 armour
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Well, as I said, I think it might be more reasonable to compare FotM+Ninja Tabi to DMP rather than just FotM to DMP and if we do that the difference is 200 hp shield and 10% aa reduction for 115 flat hp+35 armour which I don't think is very skewed in favour of DMP at all. DMP then catches up when you get ninja tabi there before 3rd item though so I'd say that
FotM is better until you build it (better build path)+ninja tabi
DMP is better after you get enough gold for DMP+ninja tabi but not enough to get 3rd item yet on FotM build
then FotM is better after 3rd item imo
DMP is very competitive with FotM and maybe it's actually good 1st item vs high phys dmg teams but against balanced I'd still prefer FotM I tihnk.
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I wonder if I should do it 2nd on Tahm, but Deadman's is pretty important as well, and so is Spirit Visage...
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Oh, to explain why I consider FotM buildpath so be so good, I value hp regen on Rammus relatively highly at that point in the game. As I said, i find that I'm almost never full hp at that point so it gives me the full value then.
OH one thing, y'all forgetting the young FotM damage burst from the active. I encourage you to utilize it, I've had it make difference before.
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FotM + Tabi vs DMP is probably something deserving of math.
I'm not gonna do the math though, meow~
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 13 2015 08:30 Ketara wrote:
FotM + Tabi vs DMP is probably something deserving of math.
I'm not gonna do the math though, meow~
well FotM+Tabi vs DMP is only relevant until the point where DMP also gets neough money to get Ninja tabi. It's clearly going to give more combat stats after that until the point when you finish another value item but obviously I don't think the combat stat difference is high enough to justify building DMP in a lot of cases. Looking at it though it might be justifiable in a lot of cases too doe.
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On October 13 2015 08:35 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2015 08:30 Ketara wrote:
FotM + Tabi vs DMP is probably something deserving of math.
I'm not gonna do the math though, meow~ well FotM+Tabi vs DMP is only relevant until the point where DMP also gets neough money to get Ninja tabi. It's clearly going to give more combat stats after that until the point when you finish another value item but obviously I don't think the combat stat difference is high enough to justify building DMP in a lot of cases. Looking at it though it might be justifiable in a lot of cases too doe.
I mean there's a 500 gold gap on both sides of tabi, dmp finishes 500g before fotm+tabi, and you get dmp+tabi 500g after that. I guess the income from fotm situationally makes that a larger gap, but it's still not quite like fotm+tabi is equal to dmp. (although dmp does have a pretty high combine cost, so you have another lull there.)
I haven't tried it much, but the few times i did i found the ms and cc from dmp surprisingly useful if you finish it before laning ends. The ms makes your ganks scary even if you have to cancel your q (enemy dodging through minions) and if they're flashless, you can get an extra auto or two on them before they get away by delaying your taunt slightly.
+ the first auto is another 100 bonus damage, and you get 15 permanent ad from your passive on top of that, which adds up if you're trying to burst someone down in a gank/tower dive.
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EPT
