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On September 21 2015 00:12 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote:
You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L. I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic.
I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux.
Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good!
Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
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Lane matchups are less relevant than ever, tbh. Meta>=power level relative to ubiquitous picks>matchups against ubiquitous picks>general matchups.
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On September 21 2015 07:21 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 00:12 Sufficiency wrote:On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote:
You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L. I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic. I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux. Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good! Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
Its so much easier than it used to be to rush Zhonya's in lane against Zed that a lot of the champions that he used to counter aren't as weak to him anymore
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On September 21 2015 07:34 Caiada wrote:
Lane matchups are less relevant than ever, tbh. Meta>=power level relative to ubiquitous picks>matchups against ubiquitous picks>general matchups.
Lux is good against Veigar both in lane and later in the game.
She beats the shit out of him in lane, and then later on uses her shield to prevent him from bursting people while continuing to outrange him.
I can see Zed and Yasuo being good against the Veig in lane, but not in teamfights because their ults have telegraphed positioning that makes them very easy to stun. Just my guess.
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Being good in lane against a midlaner in a way that is not based on superior waveclear or poke is meaningless in the modern game.
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No, lane advantages still matter. And lux is good against Veigar in lane and in team fights
Aside: Its so much easier to hit W's now its almost unfair. The .25 second reduction is massive
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On September 21 2015 07:21 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 00:12 Sufficiency wrote:On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote:
You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L. I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic. I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux.
Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good! Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
Your analysis does not take into account of Zed/Yasuo's overall win rate. They may be bad champions overall, but they are actually effective against Veigar.
On September 21 2015 08:14 Goumindong wrote:
No, lane advantages still matter. And lux is good against Veigar in lane and in team fights
Aside: Its so much easier to hit W's now its almost unfair. The .25 second reduction is massive
Yes. W is so good now that I use it like a glorified Karthus skittle. It's actually extremely effective even if E is on cooldown.
Also keep in mind Yasuo/Zed do not merely have a lane advantage vs Veigar.
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So our options are to play champions that are strong vs Veigar and also bad in general, or strong vs Veigar and also good in general.
I'd like to see Dai's advice on this Veigar trend. He was a D1 Veigar main in early s5 and far as I know when they reworked him he just stopped playing.
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This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
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On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote:
This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre.
Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
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Let's also not pretend 54% is at all egregious for a champ that plays to soloq strengths very well.
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While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir
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On September 21 2015 12:44 IamPryda wrote:
While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir
I am somewhat doubtful of that. His laning phase is still really, really bad. Picks like Zed and Yasuo will just roll him over, while other powerpicks like Ahri, Azir, and Viktor will tear him apart. His E also costs too much mana to cast and leaves him too vulnerable.
Now, you can argue that Syndra, especially with her R, is similar to Veigar. But I think Syndra has a vastly superior laning phase and her range is a lot longer. When a professional team sees Veigar I think they are just going to invade jungle 24/7; Veigar's early game is too weak to do anything useful.
I think Veigar *might* get picked a couple of times at World's as a niche pick or counter to certain mid laners (maybe Xerath or Twisted Fate), but I really do not see him being 100% picked or banned.
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On September 21 2015 13:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 12:44 IamPryda wrote:
While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir I am somewhat doubtful of that. His laning phase is still really, really bad. Picks like Zed and Yasuo will just roll him over, while other powerpicks like Ahri, Azir, and Viktor will tear him apart. His E also costs too much mana to cast and leaves him too vulnerable. Now, you can argue that Syndra, especially with her R, is similar to Veigar. But I think Syndra has a vastly superior laning phase and her range is a lot longer. When a professional team sees Veigar I think they are just going to invade jungle 24/7; Veigar's early game is too weak to do anything useful. I think Veigar *might* get picked a couple of times at World's as a niche pick or counter to certain mid laners (maybe Xerath or Twisted Fate), but I really do not see him being 100% picked or banned.
The jungle invade and early 2v2/3v3 skirmishes might be an issue but I don't think his laning phase is that weak tbh. I look at ahri and azir as issues but yas and zed right now are really champs your not going to see picked much. Yasuo is a pocket pick top most of the time anyway and zed is just underwhelming right now. I could be completely wrong depending on where the jungle lands with warriors slightly buffed and devour slightly nerfed.
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On September 21 2015 12:11 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote:
This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them. I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre. Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish.
The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting.
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The W buff applies to pro play, but the Q buff starts working if you get a bunch of assists: considering how pro games tend to have a lot less kills (and starting later) than soloQ, it has a much lower impact there too.
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On September 21 2015 18:09 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 12:11 Sufficiency wrote:On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote:
This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them. I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre. Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf. There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish. The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting.
Veigar's infinite scaling is not that different from Nasus's. It's overrated.
Also, as a time bomb, I think Azir and AP Kog are far more dangerous.
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On September 21 2015 21:19 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 18:09 DarkCore wrote:On September 21 2015 12:11 Sufficiency wrote:On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote:
This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them. I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre. Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf. There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish. The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting. Veigar's infinite scaling is not that different from Nasus's. It's overrated. Also, as a time bomb, I think Azir and AP Kog are far more dangerous.
Veigar gets 3 AP for every 2 minions he kills with Rabadons, and his W and ult scale 1:1. Throw in the AP he's already building, and he can one shot a lot of AP champions by the 20 minute mark. I would consider him pretty different from Nasus, who you can kite to death and deny a lot of CS in the laning phase.
Azir and Kog are scary scaling champs as well, but in different ways.
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Veigar does not get 3 AP per 2 minions because
1) the multiplier is not that much
2) any good Veigar will farm more with w than q.
Also veigars early game teamfight is really strong. It's just his 1v1 lane that is weak and it's not even that weak.
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On September 21 2015 22:51 Goumindong wrote:
Veigar does not get 3 AP per 2 minions because
1) the multiplier is not that much
2) any good Veigar will farm more with w than q.
Also veigars early game teamfight is really strong. It's just his 1v1 lane that is weak and it's not even that weak.
1.4 from dcap plus the masteries gets it close enough to 1.5 for all intents and purposes. Your W wipes out the caster wave very easily, but it's not hard to finagle a double melee minion kill with a couple autos and positioning.
PS. I still prefer Brand over Veigar btw. Surprisingly, Brand has the third highest winrate (overall) on op.gg. He's ahead of Lux there fwiw.
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EPT
