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United States15536 Posts
On February 28 2015 14:12 Purge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 13:52 AsmodeusXI wrote:On February 28 2015 13:44 Purge wrote:On February 28 2015 13:15 Gahlo wrote:On February 28 2015 13:08 Purge wrote:On February 28 2015 13:05 Gahlo wrote:On February 28 2015 13:01 Purge wrote:
It just annoys me that people just shit on Riot constantly here and turn these threads into boring circlejerks about balance. No insight, no strategic thinking, no observations on meta picks or even linking to their replays where they pulled off some wacky shit. I wanted to come to TL because you guys are supposed to actually be the clever strategy forum, instead I find it can turn into a more cliquey form of Reddit who come off as pretentious.
Realtalk.
The jungle is just the latest example I don't remember anybody here shit talking the Sion rework. Congrats you guys didnt pick on probably the most bulletproof release Riot has put out in over 2 years. Given what Sion was before I really dont see how anyone could. Sorry the recent patch sucks ass, don't know what to tell you. .... Ok. And starting a shitstorm on Reddit around jungle changes that were already coming and about specific jungle item changes that literally dont affect you was totally called for. About a patch that has been out for 3 fucking days. Or how bout you actually play all those tank junglers who you went off about? Sej still has a top 20% win rate in every Elo and outscales Vi in winrate as with less games in Diamond in KR. Like its not even justified what you are saying - if you dont like Vi/J4/Lee play something else, you can in fact win with other junglers. Its not professional metagame. Anyway im not even going to go further down this rabbit hole, because guess what, Riot released their clearly iterated jungle change designed to help optimize jungle early game for tanks, and then the majority of the tank junglers within 3 days of your post and the patch hitting live so Im not not even sure that anything needs to be said. I hope you dont mind the taste of your foot in your mouth. I like how you think Gahlo has any control over Reddit. I also like how you don't think this perspective on Riot's balancing approach is a legitimate criticism even though it is incredibly characteristic of most of the changes they make. Also, like most voluntary actions, if you don't like reading these forums, feel free to not do it. Either way you could probably do without being a jerk, especially when the person you're insulting wasn't trying to start shit. He made a clickbaity post on reddit waxing on about how absolutely incompetent Riot was with the jungle and how they were "going to go back to their old ways" or some such nonsense. Sorry Im calling him out on it, especially because changes came like Riot said they were going to put out. I want to think that hes an intelligent guy so its annoying to think that he'd be that close minded. It probably wasnt fair to accuse him of starting the shitstorm given that it had already been going on too, but we had front page spam for days afterwards about how terribly balanced jungle was, etc, etc. Like really did you think Riot was going to completely rework the jungle again for the 4th time and just let 4 jungler sit at the top of the food chain? I personally thought that the idea would be absurd because it would make what was clearly months of iteration worthless. Contrary to popular belief they arent stupid.
Nothing has proven this false. What there is is a PBE change that may or may not change anything. Furthermore, all the changes Riot's made in 4 seasons have eventually led to the four-jungler point. That warrants criticism, whether you like the subsequent pitchforking/circlejerking or not. Personally, I don't like it either and I don't think Riot is stupid, but I consistently question their balancing decisions because, once again, they consistently lead to the same problematic situation. Until the PBE changes go through, if they even do as written, we have the state Gahlo commented upon, as have many other jungle mains, professional or otherwise. I don't see that as close-minded, but as a valid complaint. Frankly, one could claim that trusting Riot's balance, particularly in the jungle, is similarly close-minded considering the results, but I prefer to remain hopeful, if skeptical.
I guess I'm just not sure how you don't see the salient points of Gahlo's piece. You seem to be responding to the craziness thereafter which is a symptom of luck and the Reddit community.
Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure on that one.
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im afraid they will overbuff tanks to make them on par with bruisers early game forgetting they are also a lot stronger late game, hate new juggernaut loss cdr and tenacity fuckkkkkk, as for the best jungle i loved s4 with spirit stone era u could jungle as anyone and be strong as solo laners + could carry the most out of any role junglers now feel weaker than supports
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On February 28 2015 14:48 kongoline wrote:
im afraid they will overbuff tanks to make them on par with bruisers early game forgetting they are also a lot stronger late game, hate new juggernaut loss cdr and tenacity fuckkkkkk, as for the best jungle i loved s4 with spirit stone era u could jungle as anyone and be strong as solo laners + could carry the most out of any role junglers now feel weaker than supports
They still have pbe so it's not like they're likely to mess up too hard. It might be a sidegrade instead of an up/downgrade but it'll likely shake up the meta which is what riot wants right now. Hence the heavy handed j4/via nerfs. The new jungle item prevents you from using sunfire cape, which does more damage, too.
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Why is it that whenever i play ADC the other team is like Akali - Yi - Lissandra.
Jesus I have to have the worst luck in that regard. lol.
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On February 28 2015 15:15 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 14:48 kongoline wrote:
im afraid they will overbuff tanks to make them on par with bruisers early game forgetting they are also a lot stronger late game, hate new juggernaut loss cdr and tenacity fuckkkkkk, as for the best jungle i loved s4 with spirit stone era u could jungle as anyone and be strong as solo laners + could carry the most out of any role junglers now feel weaker than supports They still have pbe so it's not like they're likely to mess up too hard. It might be a sidegrade instead of an up/downgrade but it'll likely shake up the meta which is what riot wants right now. Hence the heavy handed j4/via nerfs. The new jungle item prevents you from using sunfire cape, which does more damage, too.
PBE doesn't prevent messing up. See Veigar.
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haven't shitposted on here in a while but someone in solo q reminded me of my old ways.
how is everyone? and how has LiquidLegends changed your experience of TLLoL
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United States37500 Posts
Hi Navi, let's play again sometime.
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On February 28 2015 12:55 petered wrote:
I have been following this subforum almost from the beginning and never once have most people been happy with the way the jungle works.
Some claim that there was an era where they were happy with the jungle, but go dig up the old threads and try to find a single season without extensive jungle complaints. It doesn't exist.
I just point this out to say that what makes for a "good jungle" is extremely subjective and hard to define. It is much easier to define what you don't like about it, so most discussions about the jungle end up being unproductive griping.
Eh, the s2 jungle was generally liked, except for the level 2 ganks some champs put out, and the oracle carriers that made the vision game kinda snowbally.
The trinkets were supposed to address pre-monster spawn invades, early game ganks (especially top) and support gold issues all at the same time, but the changes made to the jungle made level 2 ganks hard, and very punishing unless you get a kill (flash and recall not enough, you gotta repeat gank). Champions like Maokai became instantly phased out because their clean wasn't enough anymore too, and Riot have constantly had issues with their design for "tank jungler" itemisation (as in once they decided they wanted jungle items, not all items they want in general).
Apart from the camping that happened sometimes, and how snowbally the game were at the competitive level when teams had a huge skill discrepancy because of oracle (which isn't necessarily that bad a thing, since it rested on a discrepancy that made the better team more likely to win anyway), s2 jungle was a good time.
s4 jungle could have been much better, but Riot took wrong decisions.
Also yeah just go and tell me my Nautilus with his amazing base MS wouldn't like a chilling smite.
On an unrelated note, I'm amazed every time I see you post because you're associated to the shikyo thread and everytime it's "I haven't seen that guy post in ages, so he still plays?" 
On February 28 2015 14:12 Purge wrote:
Like really did you think Riot was going to completely rework the jungle again for the 4th time and just let 4 jungler sit at the top of the food chain? I personally thought that the idea would be absurd because it would make what was clearly months of iteration worthless. Contrary to popular belief they arent stupid.
See history:
- they announced a Karma rework, and spent about a year and a half before it was out (assuring all the while it'd come "soonish", implying it wasn't worth learning her in her current state)
- Poppy's rework has been announced for years too, been in the pipeline over a year
- Warwick rework announced, shelved. Same with GP.
- "planned changes to fighters in general", bruiser poblem, yadda-yadda. Did nothing, shelved it too.
Riot has a history of dropping projects they have, or putting them on hold indefinitely because of "unforeseen difficulties/issues".
When they made reworks, they said they would pay attention to people feedback, and you'll remember what happened with Trundle, and how Karma wasn't far from a huge backlash too. Skarner's rework didn't pan out well at release either.
Most of the playerbase is happy with s4 changes because "hey, trinkets! Sightstone! And I can get 15k gold at the end of a game too!" despite how ham-fisted they were in their already misguided belief that "shoving gold down the support throat > creating budget items for supports that aren't slot-effective enough for cores".
But most of the playerbase is blissfully ignorant about design, too. When you read the feedback threads they put out, you'd notice that Xypherous and the other guy assigned to items (the one using a Kha'Zix avatar) would only answer to requests and suggestions going the way they wanted, and the "ward slot" they wee delighted about, but they'd not even acknowledge the "better use of available gold" paradigm in their recap posts of ideas presented in the thread.
Basically, between that and their sugar-coating, PR amping-up, buzzwords fests of statements, there can't be trust between the playerbase and Riot anymore. So yeah, them saying for 3 patches "we gonna help tanks!" while everything that comes out shits on them, and obvious issues like Ahri remain untouched, people don't really swallow it.
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On February 28 2015 17:01 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 15:15 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 28 2015 14:48 kongoline wrote:
im afraid they will overbuff tanks to make them on par with bruisers early game forgetting they are also a lot stronger late game, hate new juggernaut loss cdr and tenacity fuckkkkkk, as for the best jungle i loved s4 with spirit stone era u could jungle as anyone and be strong as solo laners + could carry the most out of any role junglers now feel weaker than supports They still have pbe so it's not like they're likely to mess up too hard. It might be a sidegrade instead of an up/downgrade but it'll likely shake up the meta which is what riot wants right now. Hence the heavy handed j4/via nerfs. The new jungle item prevents you from using sunfire cape, which does more damage, too. PBE doesn't prevent messing up. See Veigar.
I guess.
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So does new jungle item do more or less damage then Sunfire? Wish amumu and Rammus could have seen some love. Honestly a partially revert on Rammus q cooldown would be enough for me
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On March 01 2015 00:09 IamPryda wrote:
So does new jungle item do more or less damage then Sunfire? Wish amumu and Rammus could have seen some love. Honestly a partially revert on Rammus q cooldown would be enough for me
Cinderhulk has a 15 damage base, Sunfire Cape has a 25 damage base.
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Australia18228 Posts
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On March 01 2015 00:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 00:09 IamPryda wrote:
So does new jungle item do more or less damage then Sunfire? Wish amumu and Rammus could have seen some love. Honestly a partially revert on Rammus q cooldown would be enough for me Cinderhulk has a 15 damage base, Sunfire Cape has a 25 damage base.
cinderhulk also doubles in damage in you've been in combat for an unknown duration of time.
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curious what his winrate as support is (or is it not separated) at first glance of his new #s I thought he'd be significantly better at support
although I'm not a ZIlian player so it was just a guess
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Australia18228 Posts
On March 01 2015 00:28 Slusher wrote:curious what his winrate as support is (or is it not separated) at first glance of his new #s I thought he'd be significantly better at support although I'm not a ZIlian player so it was just a guess
http://champion.gg/champion/Zilean/Support
41.48% last patch -> 41%
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Would take that with a grain of salt.Zilean is also harder to play so it might take some time for people to get good at using his bombs.
Also yeah a champion with so low damage isn't really that good of a mid pick tbh.
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whats the deal with nb3 stream title "Abusing Rito's Mistakes FIZZ JUNGLE"
is fizz bugged or something?
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that feel when watching lck, lpl replays and you think, that looks fun I should play some Veigar support today
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On March 01 2015 02:10 kongoline wrote:
whats the deal with nb3 stream title "Abusing Rito's Mistakes FIZZ JUNGLE"
is fizz bugged or something?
no fizz jungle is just good
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On March 01 2015 02:10 kongoline wrote:
whats the deal with nb3 stream title "Abusing Rito's Mistakes FIZZ JUNGLE"
is fizz bugged or something?
He always tries to have attention grabbing titles. NB3 grates on my nerves. Why is he popular? TSM?!?!
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EPT
