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On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun."
whether veigar should be able to get in a position to stun you depends a lot on champ comps and not champ play
it favours people longer ranged than him or cc that can easily hit him so thats why the gameplay is meh
either he's too strong against a lot of champs and meh against most or nearly always not very good but sometimes okay
you can have interactions based on range and shit without it being totally cancerous
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I liked the old heimer, simply cuz W was so ez to use.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." whether veigar should be able to get in a position to stun you depends a lot on champ comps and not champ play it favours people longer ranged than him or cc that can easily hit him so thats why the gameplay is meh either he's too strong against a lot of champs and meh against most or nearly always not very good but sometimes okay you can have interactions based on range and shit without it being totally cancerous
Drafting is a part of the game too, if you pick a comp that ends up much better than the opposing comp, what's the problem?
I mean there's a reason Veigar isn't a top priority pick by any stretch of the imagination, these changes are just gonna take away what little he had to bring to the table.
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On February 14 2015 05:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." whether veigar should be able to get in a position to stun you depends a lot on champ comps and not champ play it favours people longer ranged than him or cc that can easily hit him so thats why the gameplay is meh either he's too strong against a lot of champs and meh against most or nearly always not very good but sometimes okay you can have interactions based on range and shit without it being totally cancerous Drafting is a part of the game too, if you pick a comp that ends up much better than the opposing comp, what's the problem? I mean there's a reason Veigar isn't a top priority pick by any stretch of the imagination, these changes are just gonna take away what little he had to bring to the table.
Just looked at the changes - I don't actually have that much of a problem with them. Range increases are huge, and Q can hit 2 targets if I'm reading this right? That will greatly increase his skirmishing threat (assuming people are in the position to get hit by both - maybe a poor assumption), and make his team fight a bit more scary and less counterable. The Event Horizon change makes it a bit more like Viktor W, and I'm not really sure how I feel about that, but it offers a bit more counterplay.
I agree with you that, in Veigar's current iteration, if you get caught by Event Horizon, you did something wrong. The changes make it a bit more forgiving, but I'm not sure that's the worst thing ever?
I don't know if the changes will make Veigar more or less viable (although, he can't get much less viable than he is now, can he?), I'll reserve judgement until I actually get to see it in action. But I don't think this makes him a completely meaningless champ.
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On February 14 2015 05:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:54 Slayer91 wrote:On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." whether veigar should be able to get in a position to stun you depends a lot on champ comps and not champ play it favours people longer ranged than him or cc that can easily hit him so thats why the gameplay is meh either he's too strong against a lot of champs and meh against most or nearly always not very good but sometimes okay you can have interactions based on range and shit without it being totally cancerous Drafting is a part of the game too, if you pick a comp that ends up much better than the opposing comp, what's the problem? I mean there's a reason Veigar isn't a top priority pick by any stretch of the imagination, these changes are just gonna take away what little he had to bring to the table.
Is that a short joke?
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I like most of the reworks. I understand the logic behind them pretty much all of the time, even when it doesn't result in the champion being super popular afterwards. I don't think "we want this to be a top tier / played all the time champion" is necessarily the goal of a rework, nor is it to buff/nerf champions.
The Xerath one is the one that I really can't get behind, because I think it completely took his identity away, and now he's just a super generic long range mage, who gets played by virtues of having his numbers overtuned in comparison to similar champions, rather than having anything unique in his kit.
I could probably write a few pages of Xerath vs. Lux vs. Ziggs and how I think new Xerath fucks the whole thing up.
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new cassio was without a doubt a nerf until they buffed her like 3 times
I dislike almost all reworks but I admit I'm really nostalgic. although I also think it's unhealthy for this game to have no point and click, mobility is already way too strong.
on the topic of veigar, it's so weird that they don't like it, it's like a harder to aim annie W/R like the only reason it's toxic is becasue it's instant? this breaks a whole lot of precedent. Well at least chain cc is possible now, so if you do manage to predict a mobility move or catch a hero with one off guard, you have more than .5 sec to 100-0 them.
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I think the Karma rework was a success, she's got a more user friendly kit and seems to fit into the League archetype of a support who does a lot of damage a la Zyra. Didn't see her mentioned as a good rework but I'm totally behind her (giggity).
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I haven't changed my runes/masteries really at all since S3. I should really get around to figuring those out...
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On February 14 2015 06:18 Zdrastochye wrote:
I think the Karma rework was a success, she's got a more user friendly kit and seems to fit into the League archetype of a support who does a lot of damage a la Zyra. Didn't see her mentioned as a good rework but I'm totally behind her (giggity).
they gutted her vastly superior AP build in exchange for this crap
i think she would have been just fine if they adjusted her numbers to fit as an AP mid instead of pigeonholing her into a support role
the issue with reworks is that they either tend to kill the feel that the champion is supposed to have or they compound the problems that they are trying to fix by doing the rework
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On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun."
Right, my problem is that what happened is I got within 850 range of a certain champ. If that's autodeath, that's boring as shit and a binary kit.
On February 14 2015 05:52 jcarlsoniv wrote:
It's called playing around a champion's kit.
The kit is what it is, and what I'm saying is I don't really care for it, I'm glad rito is doing something about it. I mean, I rarely see a veigar, and when I do I usually just pick gp or some other anti stun champ, but that doesn't change the fact that the kit is boring.
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On February 14 2015 06:29 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." Right, my problem is that what happened is I got within 850 range of a certain champ. If that's autodeath, that's boring as shit and a binary kit.
Buy Merc Treads. You no longer insta-die to a max range Veigar stun.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 06:29 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." Right, my problem is that what happened is I got within 850 range of a certain champ. If that's autodeath, that's boring as shit and a binary kit.
I don't get the problem. Don't be in 850 range hen. Your argument boils down to if "I misposition, I die." It honestly doesn't matter if it's at the hands of a Veigar or if its the enemy team jumping out of a brush and killing you. This is not a Veigar "no counterplay" problem, it's a "I mispositioned" problem.
What you are advocating for is - if I misposition, I want a way to still come out alive, cause that's more "fun," which is patently absurd.
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On February 14 2015 06:28 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 06:18 Zdrastochye wrote:
I think the Karma rework was a success, she's got a more user friendly kit and seems to fit into the League archetype of a support who does a lot of damage a la Zyra. Didn't see her mentioned as a good rework but I'm totally behind her (giggity). they gutted her vastly superior AP build in exchange for this crap i think she would have been just fine if they adjusted her numbers to fit as an AP mid instead of pigeonholing her into a support role the issue with reworks is that they either tend to kill the feel that the champion is supposed to have or they compound the problems that they are trying to fix by doing the rework
I'm not discussing her strengths, I'm discussing the changes they made to her kit. Before she was clunky and awkward, but maybe stronger. Now she's a bit weaker but far easier to use. You don't have to shield to do damage, and you can make clear choices about how strong she is with her mantra charges.
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On February 14 2015 06:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 06:29 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." Right, my problem is that what happened is I got within 850 range of a certain champ. If that's autodeath, that's boring as shit and a binary kit. I don't get the problem. Don't be in 850 range hen. Your argument boils down to if "I misposition, I die." It honestly doesn't matter if it's at the hands of a Veigar or if its the enemy team jumping out of a brush and killing you. This is not a Veigar "no counterplay" problem, it's a "I mispositioned" problem. What you are advocating for is - if I misposition, I want a way to still come out alive, cause that's more "fun," which is patently absurd.
His argument is that coming within 850 of a certain champ shouldn't be a misposition that's gonna get you killed.
Of course, right now that is indeed just mispositioning, but he thinks that's bad game design.
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I can get close to a zed and still outplay him after he ulties, I can get close to an ahri or a viktor, but the only way to play against veigar is to not play.
That's. Boring.
Let me be even clearer: It's not broken. It's not overpowered. It's just boring.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 06:36 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 06:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 06:29 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote:On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." Right, my problem is that what happened is I got within 850 range of a certain champ. If that's autodeath, that's boring as shit and a binary kit. I don't get the problem. Don't be in 850 range hen. Your argument boils down to if "I misposition, I die." It honestly doesn't matter if it's at the hands of a Veigar or if its the enemy team jumping out of a brush and killing you. This is not a Veigar "no counterplay" problem, it's a "I mispositioned" problem. What you are advocating for is - if I misposition, I want a way to still come out alive, cause that's more "fun," which is patently absurd. His argument is that coming within 850 of a certain champ shouldn't be a misposition that's gonna get you killed. Of course, right now that is indeed just mispositioning, but he thinks that's bad game design.
I mean again, that's really subjective, not to mention coming within 850 range isn't even autodeath like everyone wants to claim.
On February 14 2015 06:37 Osmoses wrote:
I can get close to a zed and still outplay him after he ulties, I can get close to an ahri or a viktor, but the only way to play against veigar is to not play.
That's. Boring.
You can go farm you can go roam you can go teamfight, that's all "playing."
What you want is to play a fighting game, not League of Legends.
On February 14 2015 06:37 Osmoses wrote:
Let me be even clearer: It's not broken. It's not overpowered. It's just boring.
Right, that's really subjective, therefore balance changes shouldn't be made on it.
I think it's really fun and I think Leblanc and Zed and other skillshot champs are really boring.
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On February 14 2015 06:34 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 06:28 Frolossus wrote:On February 14 2015 06:18 Zdrastochye wrote:
I think the Karma rework was a success, she's got a more user friendly kit and seems to fit into the League archetype of a support who does a lot of damage a la Zyra. Didn't see her mentioned as a good rework but I'm totally behind her (giggity). they gutted her vastly superior AP build in exchange for this crap i think she would have been just fine if they adjusted her numbers to fit as an AP mid instead of pigeonholing her into a support role the issue with reworks is that they either tend to kill the feel that the champion is supposed to have or they compound the problems that they are trying to fix by doing the rework I'm not discussing her strengths, I'm discussing the changes they made to her kit. Before she was clunky and awkward, but maybe stronger. Now she's a bit weaker but far easier to use. You don't have to shield to do damage, and you can make clear choices about how strong she is with her mantra charges.
which is the fundamental problem with how they decided to rework her.
her old style was clunky yes but it was actually fun to play, now they gutted her and made her into this really situationally useful support
just because a character is difficult to use isn't enough justification to simplify their kit and alienate the people who play them
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There's a lot of champions where if they get ahead enough, coming within 850 range of them is autodeath.
Seems like a silly conversation in the first place.
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I just want the tiniest chance of counterplay is all. Some small chance to shine for half a second and then go "booya!" You can do that against most champs, not so much against the ones with instastun followed by 100-0.
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EPT
