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On February 14 2015 02:10 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 02:09 wei2coolman wrote:On February 14 2015 02:03 Ketara wrote:
They did say they were going to change Veigar like, 3 patches ago. The problem with the changes from what I'm reading is nothing is really improved that would suggest any of this is a buff to viegar. Now his 100-0 is skill shot oriented, without any mobility? LOL, good luck trying to catch any champions in League of Mobility with his new Event Horizon, without getting clowned on first. Buffing a champion isn't the point of a rework.
It's a fairly large nerf imo.
What is viegar good at? 100-0 people. What does this rework do? it nerfs his over all ratios by .2. Makes his Q skill shot oriented (thus dodgeable), makes his event horizon harder to hit (thus making his new skillshot Q even more unreliable). His W got a nerf because of event horizon nerf.
Grats, he does less burst, less utility, and more risk.
What does he get out of it? some cdr changes on his dark matter and ulti? a secondary target on his q? Yeah, none of which effectively helps his burst.
On February 14 2015 02:12 Ketara wrote:
Well they did say that in the playtests he was getting so much more AP with the new Q that they had to nerf the ratio on R because he was too strong.
That would indicate that it is at least in some way a buff to Veigar.
Not that I disagree with you, I am skeptical.
Is the new Q AP per every kill regardless of how you got it? or specifically off Q kills?
On February 14 2015 02:17 Osmoses wrote:
Veigar is boring and binary imo, either you land combo and delete someone or you're a fish in a barrel. Not fun to play, not fun to play against. As for counterplay, the cd on qss is alot longer than event horizon, and having to buy a certain item to even be able to approach a veigar is lame.
This is bullshit, because support veigar is a thing in high elo play, and for a long time in game he doesn't 100-0 anyone. So his kit is not binary based on 100-0 people.
Yeah god forbid ADC's need to buy QSS for Zed, and MR item to deal with an AD champion. GOD FORBID PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY AN MR ITEM FOR VIEGAR. topkek.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 02:16 Ketara wrote:
I think AP farming with Q is probably how Riot wants him to be played.
It sounds to me like there might be a disconnect between what Riot thinks good Veigar play is, and what good Veigar play on live is.
Exactly, which is why this supposed buff is actually a huge nerf, since what Riot is buffing is the most inconsequential part of Veigar's kit.
By Hanlon's Razor, I don't think Riot is being deliberately duplicitous about "buffing" Veigar while secretly nerfing him, I think it's just a case of misguided vision and incompetence.
In any case the end result is the same - a completely gutted champion. Fortunately, despite some vacuous comments of support for these changes, the majority of commenters on Reddit as well as on the League site are voicing vocal opposition to these changes. Hopefully Riot takes this into consideration.
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Well, the second target on his Q helps his burst by letting him farm more AP.
The question becomes is he safe enough in lane to get that farm with the other changes, of which I am skeptical.
The stun change will also be a big nerf to Veigar support, if that's a thing that we care about.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 02:17 Osmoses wrote:
Veigar is boring and binary imo, either you land combo and delete someone or you're a fish in a barrel. Not fun to play, not fun to play against. As for counterplay, the cd on qss is alot longer than event horizon, and having to buy a certain item to even be able to approach a veigar is lame.
Banshee's Veil and Merc Treads, extremely common items that no one needs to go out of their way to get, are both extremely efficient against Veigar as well.
"Fun to play" is a completely subjective statement and therefore should have no bearing on how a champion is changed.
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On February 14 2015 02:19 Ketara wrote:
Well, the second target on his Q helps his burst by letting him farm more AP.
The question becomes is he safe enough in lane to get that farm with the other changes, of which I am skeptical.
The stun change will also be a big nerf to Veigar support, if that's a thing that we care about.
How these changes might end up working out is his Q lets him to stay in lane better, because it now gives him access to farm his AP + harass enemy champions. The problem is, outside of laning phase there's a huge nerf on him. He doesn't have the mobility to teamfight by spamming Q. They would have to increase his base MS, and give him some mobility compensation in order to make his teamfighting less risky (or jsut revert changes on Event Horizon).
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Baa?21248 Posts
Making his Q a skillshot is a nerf to his laning. Previously, the only advantage Veigar had in lane was to suppress the HP of the enemy laner with a low cooldown, guaranteed nuke, forcing the enemy laner to think carefully before all-ining. This lets Veigar sneak some experience to hit 6 and 11 and get actual kill potential. Without it, hard engages on Veigar pre-6 will destroy him.
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Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p
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I wonder if the Q change comes with a range increase. That's typical of when they move something from point and click to a skillshot, they increase the range.
A range increase + lower level 1 cooldown on Q might mean his laning just becomes I stay super far away and Q every minion, and then eventually my damage is absurd whether or not I get to stun you.
I dunno, I'm trying to play devils advocate. Pretty skeptical.
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It kinda says in the post it goes from 650 to 850.
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Missed that.
That's a pretty big increase.
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On February 14 2015 02:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Making his Q a skillshot is a nerf to his laning. Previously, the only advantage Veigar had in lane was to suppress the HP of the enemy laner with a low cooldown, guaranteed nuke, forcing the enemy laner to think carefully before all-ining. This lets Veigar sneak some experience to hit 6 and 11 and get actual kill potential. Without it, hard engages on Veigar pre-6 will destroy him.
It's an increased 200 range. So there's that. It'll really depend on how long the range is. 850 is still pretty short though (considering things like lux binding is 1175 range, kennen q is 1050 range)
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I can't wait for the eventual Poppy rework/update and see what you guys say then.
As for an on-topic comment, Veigar changes are probably a slight nerf overall, but the W change may help turn him into a siege mage where he pokes with Q and W, and when the enemy team gets low enough throw out the Horizon and force enemy team to either run, engage, or play dodgeball with his Q and W in the thunderdome.
Morde change sounds like a nerf overall but without numbers its hard to say.
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On February 14 2015 02:26 Osmoses wrote:
Just my opinion of course, but it seems to me just looking at the kit would tell you everything you need to know about how fun this matchup is.
And yes, qss being a must-buy just cause opponents have a zed is also bullshit :p
To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar.
Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card?
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850 is Ahri Q range, for a comparison.
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On February 14 2015 02:30 Ketara wrote:
850 is Ahri Q range, for a comparison.
Which has a much faster projectile speed. The PBE notes were pretty comprehensive, so I doubt a projectile speed increase would be present without being documented, so I have to assume they're keeping it as is.
edit: Actually I shouldn't say projectile speed because Veigar's projectile speed isn't slow per se; however, he does have a wind-up animation and brief cast time. I'm not sure how to measure it or if measurements are available, but my gut feeling is Veigar's Q, at the end of the day, comes out slower than a lot of comparable skills assuming it moves to a skillshot.
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On February 14 2015 02:30 Ketara wrote:
850 is Ahri Q range, for a comparison.
She also gets fat as fuck MS buff, so less risk on the cast. Not to mention her CC is almost instant. huehuheuhe.
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Overreaction central up in here.
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On February 14 2015 02:17 Osmoses wrote:
Veigar is boring and binary imo, either you land combo and delete someone or you're a fish in a barrel. Not fun to play, not fun to play against. As for counterplay, the cd on qss is alot longer than event horizon, and having to buy a certain item to even be able to approach a veigar is lame.
You try fighting Yi without armour or instant hard cc. Forced to buy zhonya's?
Or QSS against Zed, or how people would choose Cleanse when Heal wasn't so ridiculously strong and Barrier didn't exhaust, because they had Fiddlesticks + Ashe in the enemy team.
Thing is Veigar can keep contributing even if he misses his combo. His low cd Q is actually good sustained damage, and W destroys people with its base and ratio if you can hit it (so it can serve as zoning too), and event horizon is ridiculously strong as a turn-around/counter-initiate tool.
But of course if you pick someone thinking you'll be able to harass the frontline until their squishies walk up and you can try to catch them with E (pretty much how Viktor works in lategame fights btw, where he needs some initiation to follow-up on because of his ranges when E+R doesn't remove 30% from everyone frontline included in the first 3 seconds), you could just pick Syndra or Ziggs and deal more sustained damage while retaining similar burst, combined with AoE spam and a stronger laning phase.
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On February 13 2015 10:00 Ketara wrote:
Dear GD.
I would like to practice new champions.
I would like to do this in games that are not ranked.
I would like these non ranked games to have team compositions that vaguely resemble ranked, and are not filled with absurd troll picks all the time.
What queue would you suggest for this?
This is what normals (blind pick) are like for me. Games almost never have anyone below Gold, rarely anyone below plat, rarely get troll picks. Its quite a nice change of pace from soloq, not quite as tryhard yet still semi-competitive and fun.
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On February 14 2015 02:14 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I don't even remember last time rework failed flat out.
Uhh, what?
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EPT
