EPTSeriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version.
Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12.
[Patch 5.3] Lunar Revel General Discussion - Page 14
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Seriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version. Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Seriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version. Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12. Worse/Better, doesn't matter. The only rework that I found decent so far has been Sion. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:19 wei2coolman wrote: Worse/Better, doesn't matter. The only rework that I found decent so far has been Sion. So whether or not a reworked champion is better or worse, it's effectiveness is based upon some unknown formula with hidden metrics that you get to decide. Yeah, okay. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:21 Gahlo wrote: So whether or not a reworked champion is better or worse, it's effectiveness is based upon some unknown formula with hidden metrics that you get to decide. Yeah, okay. It's overall design metric. Just because you make something super strong, doesn't mean the rework was successful. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:23 wei2coolman wrote: It's overall design metric. Just because you make something super strong, doesn't mean the rework was successful. Do we need to go back 15 minutes when I said "Buffing a champion isn't the point of a rework." and then you continued to complain? You're complaining about something that a) isn't finalized and b) isn't static after it gets shipped to live. Ontop of that, the only interaction that any of us have had with this version of Veigar is reading something on a website. Forget using it, you haven't even actually seen it. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:28 Gahlo wrote: Do we need to go back 15 minutes when I said "Buffing a champion isn't the point of a rework." and then you continued to complain? You're complaining about something that a) isn't finalized and b) isn't static after it gets shipped to live. Ontop of that, the only interaction that any of us have had with this version of Veigar is reading something on a website. Forget using it, you haven't even actually seen it. it's almost as if they released numbers and stuff too. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Seriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version. Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12. katarina gp tryndamere sion nidalee until the jungle changes karma gragas TF jax twitch taric probably many others i can't think of off the top of my head | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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whatsupchan
United States61 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Seriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version. Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12. Everyone forget about the miss fortune rework already? | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
On February 14 2015 02:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: To start, someone who is in danger of being 100-0'ed by Veigar shouldn't be standing 850 range away from Veigar. And even so, a max-range Veigar stun does not guarantee a 100-0 due to the lower cast range on his Q and R. During the time it takes for Veigar to walk closer, the stun is counting down, and it also gives teammates a chance to interrupt/disable/kill Veigar. Even supposing that positioning should be completely negated (a silly statement to begin with), Banshee's and Mercs are, again, incredibly strong. If you build zero defensive items, why should you expect not to die when threatened? All this talk of "counterplay" is incredibly silly because Veigar outplayed you to get you in a position where you can be one-shot to begin with, so why should you get a get-out-of-jail-free card? I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
So I guess if you want a game that just evolves through player discovery over periods of years we can go back to BW or Melee (maybe doto?) | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Seriously though, when was last time that reworked champion was worse than previous version. Let's not touch Olaf in 3.12. Worse as in what? I mean, they mostly rework champions after nerfing them, so inevitably they are stronger. But that isn't the metric. The comparison is if the new champion is more balancable and more stable than the old design with real, well thought out, numbers. I think Sion is a success (hard to do worse than old sion), Karma I think is easier to keep in the meta now, and Xerath is a push because both old and new Xerath are good champions. None of the other reworks come to mind as creating a new, more stable, champion. Olaf and Gragas are obviously no more stable, I'd actually argue they are less. Katarina, Ryze, Kassadin, Rengar, aand Yi are still in that boat. Some of those other ones have worked in that they didn't produce worse champions, but they often lost the old champion who really want that bad to begin with. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
Not to mention finding someone who plays Melee in Poland :p | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote: I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. Again, I think this thought process is fundamentally incorrect, because it aims to isolate every single "sequence" of events away from the flow of the game as a whole. The interaction didn't begin when Veigar stunned you and end with you dying - the interaction began seconds or even minutes ago when both of you made positioning and movement decisions that ultimately resulted in you getting stunned. The response to getting Veigar stunned and 100-0'ed shouldn't be "zero interaction zz binary gameplay stupid game," it should be "I should've been in a position where I couldn't get stunned, he outmaneuvered me into that scenario and I should go back and review what happened that led to the stun." | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On February 14 2015 05:31 cLutZ wrote: Worse as in what? I mean, they mostly rework champions after nerfing them, so inevitably they are stronger. But that isn't the metric. The comparison is if the new champion is more balancable and more stable than the old design with real, well thought out, numbers. I think Sion is a success (hard to do worse than old sion), Karma I think is easier to keep in the meta now, and Xerath is a push because both old and new Xerath are good champions. None of the other reworks come to mind as creating a new, more stable, champion. Olaf and Gragas are obviously no more stable, I'd actually argue they are less. Katarina, Ryze, Kassadin, Rengar, aand Yi are still in that boat. Some of those other ones have worked in that they didn't produce worse champions, but they often lost the old champion who really want that bad to begin with. This is my problem. The Xerath rework is fine in the sense that it functions. The problem is that it gutted his identity and his defining aspect completely (not the free MPen, the self root for range). Old Xerath never forget. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
It was so much more satisfying. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On February 14 2015 04:38 Frolossus wrote: the ones that i think have turned out well so far are basically tristana, sivir, & corki Heimer rework was fantastic. Viktor rework was fine (and a net buff). On February 14 2015 05:26 Osmoses wrote: I'm not saying my team can't save me from a misplay and I'm not saying I should be able to build whatever I want and still be strong, I'm not saying there's no counterplay blah blah blah, I'm saying the fact that you MUST buy certain items or stay 850 range away makes for a boring, binary interaction caused by a boring, binary champ. Basically an instant cast stun with a free follow up nuke is just boring as shit. It's called playing around a champion's kit. I've never understood why people dislike having to build the same things or certain things in certain matchups. Those kinds of complaints are just a crutch for not having the skill to play on even ground with/outplay your opponent. | ||
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