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As of page 44, no more placement QQ in GD.
Ty,
Neo |
On January 17 2015 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:
In raw numbers, Ashe has no steroids and very little scaling. But by the virtue of having a lot of slows from her kit she has more opportunities to autoattack. There is plenty of damage in her kit - it's just that most of them are hidden in her kit's utility.
You're double dipping. If you want to count utility spells as part of damage there is no point in calling anything utility at all.
For everyone else, we're operating under the paradigm that Ashe does less damage than everyone else but compensates for it with the utility that may or may not balance out the lower damage.
Please don't make this spreadsheet simulator where we try to calculate the expected damage value from a 35% slow. That's as useful as saying Miss Fortune has the highest damage of any ADC because it's possible you can trap all 5 of the enemy team into a fully channeled ult. My example is extremely hyperbolic, but it is just as useful as your less hyperbolic argument, which is to say that both are extremely unhelpful.
I mean, Graves' AD steroid also has a dash, so technically this lets him catch up and get more damage out of it, so are we going to do the calculus for that too? What about adding in the fact that higher range champions can get more hits in; should we amplify Caitlyn's damage to compensate for that?
Please stop making pedantic arguments that are possibly specifically correct but otherwise generally unhelpful. I don't want a new player to read this forum and think Ashe is a high damage ADC.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 17 2015 06:32 Sufficiency wrote:
In raw numbers, Ashe has no steroids and very little scaling. But by the virtue of having a lot of slows from her kit she has more opportunities to autoattack. There is plenty of damage in her kit - it's just that most of them are hidden in her kit's utility.
In Magical Christmas Land where AD Carries are determined by their potential to slow people and kite in an infinitely long corridor, then sure. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist.
In teamfights, your mobility and kite is often dependent on Flash and mobility spells (e.g. Ezreal Essence Flux, Caitlyn Net, etc.) There are a lot of champions now whose kit is designed for closing large distances rapidly and blowing up squishies. Ashe's kite means jack when Zed comes out of nowhere and unloads everything before using shadows to disappear. Applying repeated slows is not going to help you here.
Just because in an arbitrary thought experiment where AD Carries shoot, walk back a step, shoot, walk back a step, etc. Ashe could theoretically kite for ages doesn't mean she's a good AD Carry right now. It just means that in your thought experiment, she's good.
Even if you math'ed it out with proof, again it means nothing. Mathematical and scientific proofs only prove what they're specifically testing. Your thought experiment doesn't test for quality of an AD Carry. Only the narrow view of how many slows someone has and how well they can kite champions with no gap closers and have to run at people in an infinitely long corridor will do. Nice result. But your results also have no practical use.
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On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post
I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view.
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On January 17 2015 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view.
It isn't a point of view. Ashe, when it comes to damage, doesn't do enough to be considered "plenty" for her position.
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On January 17 2015 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view.
No, you can get warned for perpetuating a stupid idea.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
You were mod-actioned for making a terrible one-line post. If you wish to complain, please take it to website feedback. Thanks!
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You got warned for spewing inaccurate (at best) information without any backing whatsoever.
Between the shit show of walls of text to display stats without context nor ties to actual in-game cases, and direct affirmations the likes of PX's "WW support is good", there's a middle ground. And it's pretty wide at that.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 17 2015 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view.
Really bad blanket statements like the one you posted grate me like no other.
There is no ADC main in this world who would even entertain the idea that Ashe is a fantastic pick.
Usually I'm on the fence when it comes to mathcraft. I see its uses and I don't wave it off completely at first glance but having someone state that Ashe is even remotely "good" goes against everything I know about this game.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Well, if you can get fed, you're going to be remotely good no matter what you play.
But seriously, if you really want to climb elo with some adc, better get Jinx, she at least can 1v9, Ashe can't 1v9 even having 8 items.
On January 17 2015 05:37 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 05:35 JonGalt wrote:On January 16 2015 08:01 JonGalt wrote:On January 15 2015 20:22 739 wrote:
So I have my New Years resolutions that I will only play certain champion pool in S5.
I've decided to go with :
Rumble Top
Pantheon/Lee/Hecarim Jungle
Graves/Jinx ADC
Galio/Leona/Thresh Support
LeBlanc/Azir Mid
And I promised myself I'll only play those champions for the whole season. Wondering after how many games I'll decide to play something else, heh. I am also going to do this. Top: Diana (Aatrox backup) Jungle: Diana (Aatrox backup) Mid: Diana (Karma backup) ADC: Ashe Support: Karma Focusing on that small champ pool to hopefully climb Elo quickly! For Diana I have been going RoA -> dcap/zhona -> zhona/dcap -> abyssal -> void with lucidty boots (I run scaling CDR quints and 5% from masteries) somewhere in the mix. I usually grab a seekers or negatron somewhere in between as well as needed. I am gonna try a super tanky build top lane someday too that starts RoA and has Sunfire/Omen/BVeil/Abyssal/Void/Liandries/Rylais/Zhona? Ionno. Still theorycrafting that one. But I basically wanna hit 40% CDR and don't worry about too much damage if my mid and adc can do the deeeps. For the life of me I can't settle on a god damn champion. Thinking about Kayle. Maybe Cass. The only thing I'm sure of is Ashe ADC and Karma Support. But I hate bot lane sooo. imo ashe can definitely work, but she just lacks a lot of damage compared to something like graves or corki. one of the most solid all around adc champs is caitlyn, if you don't main the role then she is really powerful while not being that difficult.
Caitlyn doesn't have damage to be really okayish in low elos.
She's more about sieging/rotating around map Uzi'esque style, not about "i'm going to dumpster your whole team because i have traps".
Plus, not everyone can abuse Caitlyn as hard as someone like imp does, she's not that easy.
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Baa?21248 Posts
I enjoy playing Ashe a lot and I think she's one of my best ADCs but I doubt she'll ever become relevant as a competitive meta ADC again without major overhauls to her specifically or the game in general. Which is a shame.
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On January 17 2015 07:34 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view. Really bad blanket statements like the one you posted grate me like no other. There is no ADC main in this world who would even entertain the idea that Ashe is a fantastic pick. Usually I'm on the fence when it comes to mathcraft. I see its uses and I don't wave it off completely at first glance but having someone state that Ashe is even remotely "good" goes against everything I know about this game.
Are you an ADC main?
Despite her lack of competitive success since S3, she has always been regarded as strong, but overlooked. Her utility is good but hard to measure.
Additionally, while Ashe has its variations on win rate, she always enjoyed her slightly above 50% win rate across all levels of play. I have not seen a single argument so far on that Ashe is garbage. All of the criticism seems to be circlejerking on my syntax for 'plenty'.
Also - perhaps this is the most important note - I said this because JonGalt said he wanted to main Ashe. My words are meant to be words of encouragement, not to intentionally stir up some shitstorm.
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Not to mention that her 'I should be really good at kiting' thing, was just taken by Kalista, whom I'm sure Riot would say kites in a healthier way ("The enemy isn't impeded!")
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On January 17 2015 07:40 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I enjoy playing Ashe a lot and I think she's one of my best ADCs but I doubt she'll ever become relevant as a competitive meta ADC again without major overhauls to her specifically or the game in general. Which is a shame.
Or unless there exists a support that has so much disengage that can make Ashe relevant again (zyra buffs when?)
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 17 2015 07:43 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 07:34 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 17 2015 07:24 Sufficiency wrote:On January 17 2015 06:02 Sufficiency wrote:
Ashe is a fantastic ADC and she does plenty of damage.
User was warned for this post I didn't know I would get warned for not following the mods' point of view. Really bad blanket statements like the one you posted grate me like no other. There is no ADC main in this world who would even entertain the idea that Ashe is a fantastic pick. Usually I'm on the fence when it comes to mathcraft. I see its uses and I don't wave it off completely at first glance but having someone state that Ashe is even remotely "good" goes against everything I know about this game. Are you an ADC main? Despite her lack of competitive success since S3, she has always been regarded as strong, but overlooked. Her utility is good but hard to measure. Additionally, while Ashe has its variations on win rate, she always enjoyed her slightly above 50% win rate across all levels of play. I have not seen a single argument so far on that Ashe is garbage. All of the criticism seems to be circlejerking on my syntax for 'plenty'. Also - perhaps this is the most important note - I said this because JonGalt said he wanted to main Ashe. My words are meant to be words of encouragement, not to intentionally stir up some shitstorm.
When was she regarded as strong last time, lol.
There is a reason, why she's getting picked as much as Quinn and Valor in competitive play, while every other adc finds his success in some comps.
Ashe is absolute garbage.
- You have 2,5 useless spells for laning phase and volley costs way too much and cd is way too big in early levels to really dominate the lane.
- Her range is cool, but when you don't really have damage to support it early (72 with dorans and ad marks/masteries) it's just cool, not more.
- Her passive isn't useful at all as well, unless you get some lucky crit early game while standing in bush, but i hadn't seen it happening since season 3 if not earlier.
- Ult doesn't really have large hitbox, i'm pretty sure that it's thinner than Jinx's rocket for example, it's my own impression though, can't really say 100%.
- Gold generation is kinda overrated, especially if you rush avarice blade like some guys do, then you're just irrelevant.
- Doesn't really have powerspikes, especially with nerfed ie.
- Immobile, zero escapes, doesn't have any reset abilities.
Probably there is something else i forgot, but i'm pretty sure that Ashe support is better than Ashe adc currently, until they completely overhaul her with moving slows to passive and giving her some dash/dps spell. Or at least make crits stacking up in combat, probably then she can be slightly relevant at least.
On January 17 2015 07:44 JazzVortical wrote:
Not to mention that her 'I should be really good at kiting' thing, was just taken by Kalista, whom I'm sure Riot would say kites in a healthier way ("The enemy isn't impeded!")
You can't even kite with Ashe, until you have pd.
Whole model is clunky as hell, so she turns around like she's waltzing, it's not like Tristana/Kalista/Vayne hit-and-run stuff.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
I should mention. I don't want to main Ashe. I don't want to play ADC. Or Support. Anything to do with the duo lane, I want none of it. I only picked Ashe as my ADC because even if I suck at the very least I can arrow and help kinda haha.
I am trying to main the solo lane with Diana.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On January 17 2015 07:43 Sufficiency wrote:
Are you an ADC main?
If I said that Sejuani made a good support because she can bodyblock skill shots and has a powerful Ult that's good for initation, you don't need to be an Support main to tell me I'm dead wrong.
On January 17 2015 07:43 Sufficiency wrote:
Despite her lack of competitive success since S3, she has always been regarded as strong, but overlooked. Her utility is good but hard to measure.
Additionally, while Ashe has its variations on win rate, she always enjoyed her slightly above 50% win rate across all levels of play. I have not seen a single argument so far on that Ashe is garbage. All of the criticism seems to be circlejerking on my syntax for 'plenty'.
1) Win rate =/= actually good. Maybe the only people playing her are people who are fundamentally good players and just having fun. It also says nothing about how many times she's been played. LoLKing tells me that currently Trundle is #1 win rate because there's 1 game at Challenger tier and that game was a win so therefore he has 100% win rate. That's... useless information?
2) When you make a shit post and get called out for it, you're not being picked on for your syntax. You're being called out for making a shit post. Swallow your ego and accept that you can be wrong. And if you want reasons for why Ashe is bad in general, there are a lot. oo_Wonderful_oo's list above is a good start.
On January 17 2015 07:43 Sufficiency wrote:
Also - perhaps this is the most important note - I said this because JonGalt said he wanted to main Ashe. My words are meant to be words of encouragement, not to intentionally stir up some shitstorm.
Then use the PM system. It's there for a reason.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 17 2015 07:55 JonGalt wrote:
I should mention. I don't want to main Ashe. I don't want to play ADC. Or Support. Anything to do with the duo lane, I want none of it. I only picked Ashe as my ADC because even if I suck at the very least I can arrow and help kinda haha.
I am trying to main the solo lane with Diana.
I'm seriously telling you, go Jinx.
You can help and actually scale well, not be one crit pony before dying.
Just don't mess up in switching weapons.
What's up actually with hourglass/nashors/lichbane Diana, is it viable still or just too greedy?
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On January 17 2015 07:55 JonGalt wrote:
I should mention. I don't want to main Ashe. I don't want to play ADC. Or Support. Anything to do with the duo lane, I want none of it. I only picked Ashe as my ADC because even if I suck at the very least I can arrow and help kinda haha.
I am trying to main the solo lane with Diana.
That's pretty much the only reason anyone should pick Ashe tbh.
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As someone who has played Ashe and is largely an ADC main:
Play fucking Caitlyn or Lucian if you need to ADC. Easy, safeish, scales evenly, matchups are largely similar.
Ashe isn't shit as some of you guys are convinced of, but she does have a tendency to get hard-countered if there's shit like a Zed or somesuch on the enemy team. And requires finesse.
Also only thrives in lane with specific supports and matchups (shit like Lucian/Graves will ruin your day). Niche pick overall.
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EPT
