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On November 23 2012 08:07 BlackPaladin wrote:
My saddest moment was when I was support nunu, grabbed consume mid fight when my jungler was ganking for us. Go to eat the closest minion which would have given us a 2 for 0 excange...my jungler for some reason autos the creep, killing it eith red buff the moment before my q animation goes off. I die a noble death.
Saddest day for a yeti.
sometimes good yeti die for good mans
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No, her spells are too awkward to land (E needs you to auto, so you'll eat stuff back if you use it, W's damage is low even if it heals you too, and Q has a huge cd and is hard to land) and she's got no waveclear, so I don't think she'd fare well in solo lanes. She may be able to jungle (as in do a clear) but I sincerely doubt it.
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Frostblade Irelia on sale. Fuck yeah. Dat ass.
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On November 23 2012 07:47 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:34 BluzMan wrote:On November 23 2012 07:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
You should have the option of displaying your s2 ELO rank or not Won't fix anything. If you're not displaying it, you're probably hiding something. Those brackets need to go. Still, the Nunu question stands. I have no idea how to play with him because I mostly pick "safe" ad's and work to dominate the lategame and maybe do some harass but rarely commit to killing. I don't know if it's just my picks, my playstyle or if Nunu is actually a terrible support in most lanes. Nunu is like the Vayne of supports. Terrible early game but scales really well. Nunu loses like loses like every lane except maybe against blitz but his Bloodboil is basically a free item for your AD which makes him really fucking useful. He also is a big threat in teamfights because of his ultimate, and his Iceball slow is fucking huge. I hate playing against Nunu and I love when I have a Nunu on my team. I have no idea what you mean by your playstyle. Kogmaw and Vayne, 2 of the best late game ADs, are the best ADs to combine with Nunu. Also, if everybody just hides their border, then it's solved. Just because somebody is hiding something doesn't mean anything.
I actually think Nunu lanes are pretty strong, particularly against ADCs that requires autoing and tanky supports such as Alistar and Taric. He is just bad again Janna and Sona.
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On November 23 2012 08:22 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:19 Alaric wrote:On November 23 2012 08:16 overt wrote:
and the best team fight ult of any of the supports so long as you use it properly. Wait for Nami's. Damn, that thing's range... I haven't even looked at Nami's kit. But something tells me that we'll see her in the solo lane or jungle role and then she'll get nerfed before we see her played as a proper support.
I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. The only way I can see her work is to cast E on herself to speed up then force a trade using her W (max W first). Since her W is targeted, has decent range, and heals herself, she can probably come on top in trades.
But why play her mid when you can just play Vladimir mid?
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On November 23 2012 06:58 TheYango wrote:
The fact that Zileas says that there are more hard counters in DotA lane matchups than LoL makes it pretty clear his level of familiarity with either game.
It's actually only a few rare edge cases where teams will actually draft lane counterpicks in DotA, whereas its far more common in LoL.
Zileas is more or less jumping to conclusions based on a fairly limited knowledge of DotA, and it's somewhat disappointing to see a designer show so little interest in properly learning about a competing game in the genre.
Actually, this is rare occasion where I disagree with you, Yango (which probably means that I'm wrong but w/e).
There are far less competitive heroes being played in DotA than in LoL right now. With such variety as found in LoL, there's bound to be certain comparably more noticeable counters. The example of Sion vs LeBlanc is quite a good example since they both fulfil similar laning phase roles (i.e. heavy roaming/ganking, burst APs) but Sion has a huge advantage in the match-up. However, even in DotA, there must be similar lane match-ups with similar disparities also. I, personally, cannot comment on the specifics due to my inexperience with DotA, but from what I've seen, there are a lot of imbalanced lane match-ups or hard-countering, only to be amplified by the deny mechanic. For instance, I generally see Invoker lose out against TA in mid, and Beastmaster understandably loses out against ranged heroes.
In any case, the LoL metagame has begun to solve this issue of imbalanced lane match-ups by lane-swapping, which is far more flexible than in DotA, where the safe lane and the hard lane imbalance forces a lot of match-ups and artificially hides the presence of imbalanced lane match-ups. The presence of the jungler and roaming supports in either game can influence the lanes anyway.
In DotA, the importance of items and the defender's advantage of highground means that picks will revolve around the teamfight or the overarching strategy more than the laning phase (although iG and Orange have been popularising early game picks to dictate game flow more), but that doesn't mean that DotA doesn't have a lot of hard counters. DotA's counters are very explicit - BKB against spells, certain spells against BKB, MKB against Butterfly, Blink Dagger against lack of gap closer, etc. The choices in DotA are actually probably more clear-cut than in LoL. Now, DotA has hit a sweetspot given every aspect of its design that these hard counters are not that noticeable - but LoL is still developing significantly, and comes from a different fundamental perspective of gameplay - one involving less noticeable counters, but is currently lacking in gameplay options in other areas. This is most clear when considering that we often see one farmed carry with BKB, Butterfly, Aegis and buy-back basically be able to 1v5 the other team twice and clear rax in one game, while the other game has respawning inhibitors and a clear choice between dps and defence.
Furthermore, in S3, we will see LoL shift towards a more item-orientated game, so the significance of champion counters in LoL will diminish further. All in all, I actually think Zileas has a solid point, even if his mentality is self-righteous.
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On November 23 2012 08:43 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:22 overt wrote:On November 23 2012 08:19 Alaric wrote:On November 23 2012 08:16 overt wrote:
and the best team fight ult of any of the supports so long as you use it properly. Wait for Nami's. Damn, that thing's range... I haven't even looked at Nami's kit. But something tells me that we'll see her in the solo lane or jungle role and then she'll get nerfed before we see her played as a proper support. I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. The only way I can see her work is to cast E on herself to speed up then force a trade using her W (max W first). Since her W is targeted, has decent range, and heals herself, she can probably come on top in trades. But why play her mid when you can just play Vladimir mid?
This a joke? Vlad has practically no CC. They're incredibly different.
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Quick question, what's usually built on Teemo now?
Boots+3 -> [wriggles if AD laner] -> phage/wit's core -> zerkers/tabi/mercs/sorcs boots (is zerkers generally better than sorcs?), then what? PD for more AS? Nashor's even on bruiser Teemo? Atma's for armor since you have mallet? Randuin's for more kiting?
I have no idea how to build him since AP mid Teemo has been killed wih the DFG nerf.
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On November 23 2012 08:36 Koenig99 wrote:
Frostblade Irelia on sale. Fuck yeah. Dat ass.
Yeah I'm going to buy this as well, especially seeing as I only have 1 skin total right now!
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On November 23 2012 08:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:43 Sufficiency wrote:On November 23 2012 08:22 overt wrote:On November 23 2012 08:19 Alaric wrote:On November 23 2012 08:16 overt wrote:
and the best team fight ult of any of the supports so long as you use it properly. Wait for Nami's. Damn, that thing's range... I haven't even looked at Nami's kit. But something tells me that we'll see her in the solo lane or jungle role and then she'll get nerfed before we see her played as a proper support. I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. The only way I can see her work is to cast E on herself to speed up then force a trade using her W (max W first). Since her W is targeted, has decent range, and heals herself, she can probably come on top in trades. But why play her mid when you can just play Vladimir mid? This a joke? Vlad has practically no CC. They're incredibly different.
If you play AP Nami you are essentially playing like Vladimir in lane, except not as good. What kind of lanes do you think she can win? Given her AP ratios on her spells, how viable do you think she can transition into late game?
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On November 23 2012 08:57 Agnosthar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:36 Koenig99 wrote:
Frostblade Irelia on sale. Fuck yeah. Dat ass. Yeah I'm going to buy this as well, especially seeing as I only have 1 skin total right now!
Very tempting, but I think I am fine with Aviator Irelia.
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On November 23 2012 09:01 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:On November 23 2012 08:43 Sufficiency wrote:On November 23 2012 08:22 overt wrote:On November 23 2012 08:19 Alaric wrote:On November 23 2012 08:16 overt wrote:
and the best team fight ult of any of the supports so long as you use it properly. Wait for Nami's. Damn, that thing's range... I haven't even looked at Nami's kit. But something tells me that we'll see her in the solo lane or jungle role and then she'll get nerfed before we see her played as a proper support. I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. The only way I can see her work is to cast E on herself to speed up then force a trade using her W (max W first). Since her W is targeted, has decent range, and heals herself, she can probably come on top in trades. But why play her mid when you can just play Vladimir mid? This a joke? Vlad has practically no CC. They're incredibly different. If you play AP Nami you are essentially playing like Vladimir in lane, except not as good. What kind of lanes do you think she can win? Given her AP ratios on her spells, how viable do you think she can transition into late game?
Vlad has no mana troubles, a very reliable escape move, little to no utility and a good waveclear once he gets some AP to bolster his E (and compensate for the cost through Q or spellvamp).
Nami has average mana costs, no escape, a load of utility and no waveclear at all (Q needs a bunch of AP before it can one shot the wave, and even then you'll have trouble hitting the whole wave with it unless they made the AoE bigger).
They have nothing in common. She's even got a good voice-over!
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On November 23 2012 08:57 Alaric wrote:
Quick question, what's usually built on Teemo now?
Boots+3 -> [wriggles if AD laner] -> phage/wit's core -> zerkers/tabi/mercs/sorcs boots (is zerkers generally better than sorcs?), then what? PD for more AS? Nashor's even on bruiser Teemo? Atma's for armor since you have mallet? Randuin's for more kiting?
I have no idea how to build him since AP mid Teemo has been killed wih the DFG nerf.
I usually go for Malady and GA after phage + wits end.
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Nashors tooth on Teemo is the build I always see. If its good, I have no idea. Teemo is just teemo no matter what.
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I want infiltrator irelia to go on sale. Awesome armor ;-;
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Funny how people are so divided when it comes to irelia skins.
I personally find that the aviator skin is her best one but the majority thinks it's pretty bad compared to others.
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On November 23 2012 08:16 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 07:47 OutlaW- wrote:On November 23 2012 07:34 BluzMan wrote:On November 23 2012 07:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
You should have the option of displaying your s2 ELO rank or not Won't fix anything. If you're not displaying it, you're probably hiding something. Those brackets need to go. Still, the Nunu question stands. I have no idea how to play with him because I mostly pick "safe" ad's and work to dominate the lategame and maybe do some harass but rarely commit to killing. I don't know if it's just my picks, my playstyle or if Nunu is actually a terrible support in most lanes. Nunu is like the Vayne of supports. Terrible early game but scales really well. Nunu loses like loses like every lane except maybe against blitz but his Bloodboil is basically a free item for your AD which makes him really fucking useful. He also is a big threat in teamfights because of his ultimate, and his Iceball slow is fucking huge. I hate playing against Nunu and I love when I have a Nunu on my team. I have no idea what you mean by your playstyle. Kogmaw and Vayne, 2 of the best late game ADs, are the best ADs to combine with Nunu. Also, if everybody just hides their border, then it's solved. Just because somebody is hiding something doesn't mean anything. I think Janna is a lot more comparable to Vayne than Nunu. Like, yeah, his blood boil is pretty nifty come late game. But his consume and ult are reallyyyyy situationally useful (and in most situations, come late game, his ult and consume are useless). Janna has a very mediocre lane phase and is still the best support late game. Who gives a shit if Nunu has blood boil when you have a knock up, slow, shield that also functions as an AD steroid, and the best team fight ult of any of the supports so long as you use it properly.
While i agree to some extent, the amount of peel nunu offers his carry coupled with the AS/MS buff can make him VERY strong lategame. I remember a pro game from the championships (not sure which) where they ran nunu/kog with Karthus mid. Their lategame fights were groundstomps, none could dive through nunu ult/karthus aoe to reach kogmaw who simply wrecked the opposition.
In those situations Nunu is definitly worth his money. Laning phase? Well it depends how well you coordinate with your carry, Nunu is fairly tanky and he has a spammable slow and some sustain for himself, so if you can go all in on them once (or get a jungler gank) to gain an advantadge, from that point on it's one of the easiest lanes to win, no matter which carry you have.
I've played Nunu/ezreal with my duo partner, and even that works to some extent (though not as well as nunu/kog, sadly he hates kogmaw :/)
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On November 23 2012 08:51 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 06:58 TheYango wrote:
The fact that Zileas says that there are more hard counters in DotA lane matchups than LoL makes it pretty clear his level of familiarity with either game.
It's actually only a few rare edge cases where teams will actually draft lane counterpicks in DotA, whereas its far more common in LoL.
Zileas is more or less jumping to conclusions based on a fairly limited knowledge of DotA, and it's somewhat disappointing to see a designer show so little interest in properly learning about a competing game in the genre. Actually, this is rare occasion where I disagree with you, Yango (which probably means that I'm wrong but w/e). There are far less competitive heroes being played in DotA than in LoL right now. With such variety as found in LoL, there's bound to be certain comparably more noticeable counters. The example of Sion vs LeBlanc is quite a good example since they both fulfil similar laning phase roles (i.e. heavy roaming/ganking, burst APs) but Sion has a huge advantage in the match-up. However, even in DotA, there must be similar lane match-ups with similar disparities also. I, personally, cannot comment on the specifics due to my inexperience with DotA, but from what I've seen, there are a lot of imbalanced lane match-ups or hard-countering, only to be amplified by the deny mechanic. For instance, I generally see Invoker lose out against TA in mid, and Beastmaster understandably loses out against ranged heroes. In any case, the LoL metagame has begun to solve this issue of imbalanced lane match-ups by lane-swapping, which is far more flexible than in DotA, where the safe lane and the hard lane imbalance forces a lot of match-ups and artificially hides the presence of imbalanced lane match-ups. The presence of the jungler and roaming supports in either game can influence the lanes anyway. In DotA, the importance of items and the defender's advantage of highground means that picks will revolve around the teamfight or the overarching strategy more than the laning phase (although iG and Orange have been popularising early game picks to dictate game flow more), but that doesn't mean that DotA doesn't have a lot of hard counters. DotA's counters are very explicit - BKB against spells, certain spells against BKB, MKB against Butterfly, Blink Dagger against lack of gap closer, etc. The choices in DotA are actually probably more clear-cut than in LoL. Now, DotA has hit a sweetspot given every aspect of its design that these hard counters are not that noticeable - but LoL is still developing significantly, and comes from a different fundamental perspective of gameplay - one involving less noticeable counters, but is currently lacking in gameplay options in other areas. This is most clear when considering that we often see one farmed carry with BKB, Butterfly, Aegis and buy-back basically be able to 1v5 the other team twice and clear rax in one game, while the other game has respawning inhibitors and a clear choice between dps and defence. Furthermore, in S3, we will see LoL shift towards a more item-orientated game, so the significance of champion counters in LoL will diminish further. All in all, I actually think Zileas has a solid point, even if his mentality is self-righteous.
Actually quite a variety of heroes are picked in Dota, someone did the stats on it and that since the latest patch an extreme amount of competitive heroes have been picked. Sure you will see some heroes a lot but frankly that is the same in LoL too(not a game without TA in Dota, not a game without Ezreal or Sona in LoL,) the fact that some heroes or champions are more popular will always be there even though Sona has been nerfed even if Ezreal is nerfed, others will take their place, that is simply the nature of the game(in both games). Secondly, Dota does not try to make each hero competitive because some heroes inherent in their design will have to be completly changed to do so as they some of them do not have a role idea behind them(Bloodseeker for example), you might aswell make a new hero then.
The thing about Dota that differs to LoL to a certain degree is as has been pointed out, things such as offlane. There are simply some heroes which are inherently just weak laners, due to the asymetrical power curve that Dota has they are incredibly weak early game but scale to almost ridicilous levels lategame(Anti-Mage is one of these). What LoL does not want in their design philosophy is to have an unfun experience while laning. This means that champions will always need to be of somewhat similair strength in terms of laning(causing less variety then in Dota actually) but due to needing the variety that comes with it it will always mean that out of all the champions suiteable for top, mid and up to a certain degree bottom will always have counters. Due to this unfun design philopshy a lot of emphasis is put on the laning phase. In Dota it is totally acceptable for someone to be level 2 or even less by the 6 minute mark from a design point of view. Unacceptable in LoL. It is totally acceptable in Dota to not lane somewhere at all and pretty much perform a trilane top with a jungle or a duallane jungle. In Dota it is tradeoffs you make, you sacrifice someone's levels for extreme farm on your carry who will scale incredibly hard. Like Anti-Mage or Faceless Void).
As you pointed out, Invoker loses mid to TA. However once again this is a tradeoff you make, while Invoker will lose the lane 1v1 Invoker is a teamfight hero designed not to battle one vs one in the middle lane but to control teamfights with EMP, With Tornado or with his global presence to Sunstrike where is needed on the map. His tradeoff is that he loses mid against a TA incredibly hard but becomes potent in the midgame due to other reasons then sheer killing power that TA brings. This would be unacceptable in LoL. As both TA and Invoker are mid laners, they would need to be of somewhat equal power level.
Zilean would call this a hardcounter, TA vs Invoker, but it is not because it is not about 1v1 laning. LoL puts a lot more emphasis on the laning stage and because of that there are up to a certain degree, more hardcounters in LoL.
Another example is Night Stalker, a strong ganking hero who becomes stronger at night time in Dota, a certain time window where his abilities are amplified and make him potent enough to tower dive at level 6-7. Night stalker is a melee hero and as such has a hard time laning against QoP. While some would call this a hardcounter people do not draft QoP thinking well I can hardcounter Night stalker. In fact NS can destroy QoP by silencing him in teamfights until QoP gets a BKB. Laning stage with a NS ends incredibly fast and as such you pick NS for its early game ganking power. You don't draft around the fact that he can crush its lane, he won't. In fact he will lose the lane against QoP but he will win the game for your team come midgame.
It is not about laning and as such teams will not draft based upon lanes to counterdraft. They draft around teamfights, assymetrical power curve heroes, strong ganking strategies or stronger push strategies. You don't base your picks around the enemy's team lanes.
TLDR imbalanced lane matchups in Dota are considered fine by design because the laning stage in terms of 1v1, 1v2 or 2v2 matchups is considered less important in the grander scheme of things. A few of the reasons for these are asymetrical power curves, teamfight presence, early-midgame ganking strategies or push strategies. Imbalanced lane matchups =/ hardcounters. Thus you don't draft around your countering your opponents lanes but you draft around you countering the opponents strategy or executing a strategy of your own.
also
one farmed carry with BKB, Butterfly, Aegis and buy-back basically be able to 1v5 the other team twice and clear rax in one game,
is a completly misinformed statement when it comes to competitive Dota, this never happens at all. Heroes grow out of control sure but they are never able to do what you described unless the Dota you have been watching has come to a standstill in the ZSMJ Medusa/Alchemist era.
and on a small unrelated note, Beastmaster mid actually wins against a large amount of ranged heroes mid due to bottle crowing, axe spam and aura pushing the waves. He isn't supposed to win the lane on the offlane because its often a 1v3 or a 1v2+jungle matchup.
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On November 23 2012 09:03 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:57 Agnosthar wrote:On November 23 2012 08:36 Koenig99 wrote:
Frostblade Irelia on sale. Fuck yeah. Dat ass. Yeah I'm going to buy this as well, especially seeing as I only have 1 skin total right now! Very tempting, but I think I am fine with Aviator Irelia.
You would like one of the ugliest skins in the game.
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Pretty much kipsate and yango are correct, as it's almost unanimous to the people who have experience in both games. the people with only experience in dota tend to think LoL is 100% counter based, and the people with experience only in lol think Dota is more counter based. LoL is a hell of a lot more "snowball-y" so laning phase is pretty much the game. provided your team has the ability to team fight up to their potential. If you get a medium lead from laning (say 3-4 extra kills and a couple dragons) you go on to win the game the vast majority of the time. this leads to the counter concept far more than a game like dota that doesn't have linear scaling for every character. characters drop off in usefulness far more in dota than in lol, while other start weak and end strong.
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EPT
