Hello everyone, so I've decided to write a thread about the things I have learned from being an over the top UI perfectionist and switching the handedness with which I use my mouse.
So it's been 4 months, and I'm still with it.. I have nothing bad to say about having my right hand on my keyboard, I think it's awesome. My hand basically never ever moves while I'm playing and it's just my fingers.. It fucking rules.
But that's not what I want to talk about today.. I have been through so many changes to my mouse settings and so much research and analysis of my mousepad and mouse it's.... well.. it's probably too much..
I am a perfectionist to such a high degree, I don't know, it's just the way I am. I hate feeling like something I have control over could be better..
However, it does pay off, I'm going to try to go over some important revelations I have made, no matter how trivial they may seem simply because I know there must be some people out there who care as much as I do.
Ok let's get started!
First off what are the things that can affect the performance of your mouse?
We're going to assume things like tracking and DPI are sufficient since those are kind of obvious.. also omitted is the possibility of mouse acceleration, this should be off at all times. Not surprisingly it's just too hard to be consistent with any acceleration. (Note: Acceleration is when the sensitivity varies depending on the speed at which your mouse is moving from point A to point B) - In modern OS's it's called enhanced pointer precision, turn this off.
Ok so back to the list, I wrote them in the order I am going to go over them but I should mention first that this is actually the opposite order of importance, that is the most important thing is sensitivity, then mousepad, then arm positioning and finally the mouse itself is the least important thing which brings us to the first topic..
The Mouse So what mouse should you use? Honestly, it doesn't matter a whole lot but there are several things that you should avoid when picking out a mouse.
Cordless mice are bad simply because they require batteries which are often weighted heavily towards the back which makes moving your mouse laterally in a straight line really really difficult. I have also heard there can be problems simply due to them being cordless and thus having less than perfect communication with you computer.
Avoid mice that have buttons that you may accidentally hit, this is obvious but there are a surprising amount of mice out there that have this problem.
As most of you know almost all progamers use the Logitech Mini Optical. Now I'm not saying that makes it the best automatically but it truly is one of the best options.
It's very light but it has a really wide base and profile that fits most hands well, if you have a very narrow hand and want a light mouse the salmosa is a great choice as well. I have no problem at all with Logitechs MX series(except of course for the cordless buttoned onces)
They are ergonomic mice but you can and should still use a finger tip grip on them that feels comfortable... Again it's not too big a deal what mouse you use unless you are using one with a major flaw.
You should make sure of three things when you are using your mouse and that is that: A) You are not resting the weight of your hand on the mouse B) Your fingers are not dragging along your mousepad, if they are try to pick them up and if you can't do it after a week of trying it's probably time for a new mouse. The friction of your fingers on the pad will not be consistent thus giving you an unknown variable to contend with when mastering your mouse which is bad for obvious reasons. C)In your default gaming position, there is no direction that the weight of your arm favors due to your mouse. Some mice have your hand rotated slightly which can give your arms weight a favoring towards one direction. This happens more often due to poor arm positioning but make sure it's not your mouses fault too.
My honest suggestion is the logitech mini optical.. it is especially great for avoiding B. I hope no one accuses me of blindly going with the progamers on this one(the dt35 keyboard which all progamers use is garbage).
Ok what's next..
Arm Positioning Alright, for arm positioning, above all things there is one thing you MUST avoid and it is something I mentioned in the last section. You cannot under any circumstances allow your mouse arm to favor movement towards any direction. If you're unsure of what I mean just sit far from desk with your hand on your mouse and notice that the weight of your army and the bodies desire to return to it's natural position is pulling your arm towards you.
There can also be lateral tugging if your are rotated for any reason or if your arm is pointed either right or left instead of going straight from your shoulder to the desk. Your arm should be straight, parallel to the armrests on your computer chair if you have them.
Ok so what can you do to make sure there is no tugging towards your body?
It basically depends on the height of your table, if it is exactly parallel with or just below the height of your elbow then you can just sit up straight and let your hands rest on the table without any support on your elbow but make sure you are sitting close enough that your arms are being dragged towards you.
If your table is above your elbows which is usually the case, you should either rest your elbows on your armrests(preferable) or be pushed in towards your computer table with your whole arm resting on the desk.
Having your whole arm on your table can be bad depending on the size of your arms and whether you think the unavoidable arm friction variability will affect your consistency.
I should mention that I don't think any progamers play with their whole arms on the table but doing so is still much better than possible dragging.
Just remember, the key is to have a natural position that leaves your arm completely at rest, and be able to maintain this feeling throughout the game as well as keep consistent friction between your arm and any surfaces it is touching.
Next. Mousepads
You need a low friction mousepad. High friction mousepads should only be used for FPS gamers need to move their whole arm while playing.
Razor markets high friction mousepads as "control pads" designed for RTS gamers and this is just the opposite of what is effective.
Beyond that it's not a big deal what mousepad you use.. you usually get what you pay for as far as durability.
I wouldn't trade this mousepad for any other in the world (which is good because it was like 70$).
Also a lot of people think they have low friction mousepads when they don't.. the destructor is often called a low friction pad but it's not. Make sure you've experienced a really smooth pad before you make your decision. A mousepad is something really easy to dismiss because of unfamiliarity, you need to get used to something before you can have an opinion about it.
Mouse Sensitivity! Ok this is the big one. Mouse sensitivity is not only the most important, it is also the one with the biggest misconceptions. People know progamers have high apm, they know progamers are fast, you can't really blame anyone for assuming they have mastered the highest sensitivities humans have ever conceived.. but this is the opposite of what they do and it is not at all what allows for the highest potential of a player.
I would say probably 90% of you people reading this need to lower their sensitivity and probably over 40% need to cut it literally in half.
There are 3 ways to use your mouse.
-Move your whole arm This is what you do when your playing FPS games such as CS etc, you need the sensitivity very very low so you can make all the important shots. I once asked a top fps player at a lan what the hell he does when there is someone behind him and he simply replied "I don't let anyone get behind me" They sacrifice being able to do a 180 quickly to just have perfect accuracy with short movements. This emphasizes a point that you can NOT be as accurate with high sensitivity as you can with low sensitivity. What he had is lower sensitivity than you want when playing RTS because you still need to get to the minimap quickly and often.
-Move just your fingers This is what I'm sure a lot of you do, if you are able to do this and play an RTS, your sensitivity is simply too fucking high. I did this for years. It sucks and the reason people put up with it is because they think it allows for the highest potential of a player and then they just get used to it and if they ever go down they dismiss the consideration of trying to for more than 30 seconds because they feel restricted. This isn't a preference thing, it's just bad to have high sensitivity.. Hand eye coordination potential works basically the same throughout all humans and though you can be a bit more or less sensitivity than some other guy you should be pretty low generally speaking. There is a right way and a wrong way. You can disagree with what I'm saying at face value and I'll try to convince you over the next few paragraphs but if you dismiss it you are destined for mediocrity.
-Move your wrist and your fingers Ok, this is where it's at! You use your wrists for large lateral movement and your fingers at the same time to pinpoint the location you want to click. The wrist doesn't help with vertical movements much but luckily modern screens aren't as big vertically as they are horizontally. This is how all progamers play, this without a doubt is what you should be practicing to maximize your potential as an RTS gamer.
Look at his wrist go, Nada has VERY low sensitivity and is one of the highest APM players out there. Even after I saw this video I didn't drop down right away, I thought I was different somehow, I thought the communal knowledge of progamers didn't apply to me for some reason and continued playing with sensitivity that I thought was reasonable, pretty low, but not like this.
This was with my left hand of course, my untrained left hand that was sluggish and lazy. Only 4 months old, my left hand didn't want to move around so much.
So I realized something was wrong, I was getting faster but I wasn't getting more consistent.. I started thinking of what was wrong.. mousepad, mouse(using salmosa atm) I wasn't sure..
I decided to go through my old mice to see how they felt. So I went through some shitty logitechs, and then finally got to my old mx518.. but guess what.. this mouse is right handed only. I figured I had nothing to lose and moved my mousepad over to the right and plugged it in.
As some of you may know, DPI affects sensitivity and salmosa has 1600 and mx518 has some number less that 1600.. so my sensitivity dropped a bunch..
I noticed my times were quite low. So I was staring at this mouse like.. hmmm have I been an idiot for buying this tiny salmosa?
I was getting ridiculous times right away, after 4 months of inactivity.
So I thought some more, and then eventually went back to my salmosa with my right hand to see how it felt... I noticed the sensitivity was much higher but decided to just go with it.. my times went up and more importantly my consistency was just not good enough.. I would fuck up about every other game and get a time a full second over what is decent. So I decided to just cut my sensitivity in half. My times plummeted,it was nuts.. Lower than I had ever gotten before I switched and I was SO consistent, hitting good times every single game.
It's the sensitivity, it wasn't even THAT high before this all happened but it was really really low and I was way faster and more accurate than ever before with both hands. So yeah, that my story, I feel like this is Day 1 of my official mouse training because I'm finally fully confident with all aspect of my mouse. I never stopped trying to see if I could improve something and I feel like it really worked out.
So not a lot of people change things just because they read something some guy said but I really urge you to not dismiss this if you want to get better and try to lower your sensitivity way way down.I just measured and it takes my mouse 1.5 inches to go all the way from the left side of my screen to the right side.. it could be a TINY bit lower before being unbearable but I know I'm right in the optimal area and this feels like a good medium. EDIT: After realizing I am using mouse3 button and you all are currently using mouse scroll and therefor have to move your mouse all the way to the edge of the map often, I would say something a bit lower than 1.5 inches is likely optimal - Not too much though
I'm sure some of you have even lower sensitivity and that's cool too as long as you can get your cursor to the minimap quickly when in game.
So I hope my reasoning has been enough credibility but I thought I would record a little video too.. this is after only half a day of temporarily being back to my right hand.
Oh yeah and to anyone who wrote in those old popoint threads about the spawns mattering in this game.. they don't.
EDIT
The 1.5 inches I suggested as a guide to find a good low sensitivity is IN GAME, the resolution discrepancy between your desktop and BW affects sensitivity a TON.
Either use iccups chaos plugin sensitivity adjuster to make your desktop sensitivity match your in game sensitivity or configure the 1.5 inches to your IN GAME sensitivity.
It's free, it's tiny and it won't ask you to install and toolbars.. it's main purpose to on the fly sensitivity changing but it also gives you twice as many option to choose from when picking your sensitivity.
EDIT: After realizing I am using mouse3 button and you all are currently using mouse scroll and therefor have to move your mouse all the way to the edge of the map often, I would say something a bit lower than 1.5 inches is likely optimal
I agree with everything in your post. Another important thing is to keep the wire of the mouse slightly bent. This way, you have to apply additional force because you have to pull the mouse down.
very interesting read. I'm glad to find out my mouse sensitivity is at a good level. On my wide screen going form the left side to the right side is slightly less than the width of my mini optical.
funny I just changed mice because my crappy kensington died on me so I had to fish out and repair my ooolld macally optical internet mouse...it feels sooo much better
Hey I forgot to add something really important, I edited it into the post but I should paste it here as well...
The 1.5 inches I suggested as a guide to find a good low sensitivity is IN GAME, the resolution discrepancy between your desktop and BW affects sensitivity a TON.
Either use iccups chaos plugin sensitivity adjuster to make your desktop sensitivity match your in game sensitivity or configure the 1.5 inches to your IN GAME sensitivity.
On April 14 2009 18:42 MuR)Ernu wrote: We need idra to secretly access all the other progamers computers and check their mouse settings.
When I was at blizzcon I got to watch them all play, I am certain the 1.5 inches is a strong starting point, I do urge anyone to start 2 notches below this 1.5 and then go up 1 notch every hour for two hours, it is a much easier way to help your hand/mind absorb the decrease in sensitivity.
On April 14 2009 18:11 T.O.P. wrote: I agree with everything in your post. Another important thing is to keep the wire of the mouse slightly bent. This way, you have to apply additional force because you have to pull the mouse down.
I use the Salmosa too, great mouse.
On April 14 2009 18:23 Mastermind wrote: very interesting read. I'm glad to find out my mouse sensitivity is at a good level. On my wide screen going form the left side to the right side is slightly less than the width of my mini optical.
On April 14 2009 18:14 hyde wrote: wow, nice post, my sensitivity on my mouse is set to max, maybe I'll cut it down for a while and see how I go.
Thanks a lot guys, really nice to get positive feedback.
On April 14 2009 18:20 mmgoose wrote: are you that youtube east asian looking guy with the razer everything?
On April 14 2009 20:08 ssystem wrote: This is hardly a SMALL note but interesting nonetheless. I've always keep my sensitivity relatively low, just sorta felt right.
Just measured and takes my mouse about 1.5 inches too, I guess I'm just naturally good
While there probably is an "optimal" starcraft sensitivity level where you get the perfect combination of speed and accuracy, I definitely think most people (myself included) have gotten used to playing starcraft with our sensitivities set higher than they should be.
lol my mouse and keyboard are on my bed ;p i play with a screen facing to my bed and i sit on my bed and my mouse is on my bed... haha i'm not lazy it's just my tv broke so I had no other way of watching shit unless i made my moniter face my bed.
On April 15 2009 04:03 NEwAcC) wrote: While there probably is an "optimal" starcraft sensitivity level where you get the perfect combination of speed and accuracy, I definitely think most people (myself included) have gotten used to playing starcraft with our sensitivities set higher than they should be.
Yeah I guess this thread is only written for people who actually care about raising their maximum potential... I really hope no one who wants to be the best they can would stick with something less than optimal because they are too stubborn to change. It takes VERY little time to adjust to a new sensitivity.
It's free, it's tiny and it won't ask you to install and toolbars.. it's main purpose to on the fly sensitivity changing but it also gives you twice as many option to choose from when picking your sensitivity.
lol small note my ass My mouse usage seems pretty efficient to me and I know if I tried to force a change it wouldn't happen so I'll just stick with what I am doing now but nice guide(or note or w/e you want to call it).
I disagree with the lowering the sensitivity. I use a razor lacheis which is an ok mouse, nothing amazing, but if i play with anything lower than the absolute maximum i feel strange. I don't move my hand/arm at all when playing, i just use my fingertips and it's very accurate and quick.
The fingertips are far more sensitive than the hand or arm muscles. I'd say about 3/4 of an inch square moves my entire screen and it's not an issue. Whatever you get used to playing with is what's good.
I have friends who on the fly swap sens depending on if they are using railgun/rocket in q3 for instance which makes sense for that type of game, but for RTS you really only need 1 sens and it should be w/e you're able to operate at quickly without making mistakes.
edit: I use an icemat for my mousepad which i won at some lan.. it's just a piece of frosted glass basically, but it seems to work very well compared to the alloy pads i've used.
On April 15 2009 08:44 SonuvBob wrote: Aw, my Popoint record got busted. :p
Haha yeah so far my best time is 2.566 and it won't get any better since I won't be playing with my right hand anytime soon, under 2.5 is definitely possible but certainly not by a significant amount... I will hopefully do it with my left hand soon enough.
If you beat my 2.566 I'll have to go back to my right for as long as it takes to catch up.
Seriously anyone is capable of times like these, it just takes the right setup and a little practice.
I just turned down the sensitivity two notches Used to be half an inch across the screen (ingame), now it's somewhere between 1 and 1.5 inches It's such a pain clicking things D:
k this was definitely not a small note about mice, took me like .... longer than i usually do to read an OP... switching over to my recessive hand :O naw. theres no way I can position my right hand over my keyboard so that my hand doesn't move.
On April 15 2009 13:26 OmgIRok wrote: So can I get 5.5 notches with regedit?
k this was definitely not a small note about mice, took me like .... longer than i usually do to read an OP... switching over to my recessive hand :O naw. theres no way I can position my right hand over my keyboard so that my hand doesn't move.
To calculate the mouse speed under Windows NT, three settings are used: Mouse Speed, MouseThreshold1, and MouseThreshold2.
Mouse Speed sets the relationship between mouse and cursor movement when the value of either MouseThreshold1 or MouseThreshold2 is exceeded. When this occurs, cursor movement accelerates according to the value of MouseSpeed.
MouseThreshold1 and MouseThreshold2 set the maximum number of pixels the mouse can move between mouse interrupts before the system alters the relationship between mouse and cursor movement. If the mouse movement exceeds the threshold defined by MouseThreshold1 and if MouseSpeed is greater than 0, the system moves the cursor at twice the normal speed. If the mouse movement exceeds the threshold defined by MouseThreshold2 and if MouseSpeed is 2, the system moves the cursor at four times the normal speed.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse I have no clue what any of these registry settings do... Edit: All 3 of mine are at 0 though o_O
On April 15 2009 13:26 OmgIRok wrote: So can I get 5.5 notches with regedit?
k this was definitely not a small note about mice, took me like .... longer than i usually do to read an OP... switching over to my recessive hand :O naw. theres no way I can position my right hand over my keyboard so that my hand doesn't move.
Here use this, the getcurrent button is useful but know that the middle of normal windows sensitivity is = 1 below the middle of this program.
It's free, it's tiny and it won't ask you to install and toolbars.. it's main purpose to on the fly sensitivity changing but it also gives you twice as many option to choose from when picking your sensitivity.
On April 15 2009 23:26 Amber[LighT] wrote: i heard when your hand is on it's side you will get the most optimal positioning. I think there was a thread about this a while ago.
You mean this thing right?
I would agree that the positioning looks good but I haven't seen any mice with this design that allow you to use your fingers to help snap to the location you want which is really important.
These mice all have to be really large and heavy because the buttons are on the side which mean they have to make it easy for your thumb to offer counter-pressure or simply clicking can throw you off.
This is mostly speculation but I'm confident enough to not want to try it out with the current designs available... It's possible it could evolve into something good soon enough.
On April 15 2009 23:26 Amber[LighT] wrote: i heard when your hand is on it's side you will get the most optimal positioning. I think there was a thread about this a while ago.
You mean this thing right?
I would agree that the positioning looks good but I haven't seen any mice with this design that allow you to use your fingers to help snap to the location you want which is really important.
These mice all have to be really large and heavy because the buttons are on the side which mean they have to make it easy for your thumb to offer counter-pressure or simply clicking can throw you off.
This is mostly speculation but I'm confident enough to not want to try it out with the current designs available... It's possible it could evolve into something good soon enough.
Haha that's the abomination there
Personally I prefer just the two clicks and a lightweight mouse that holds my fingers off the mousepad. Don't need much more than that I guess.
I'm actually excited to see you followed up on this I remember reading everything and then nothing for a while
Gread read. I feel your perfectionism... It took me about 500 hours of research to buy a new mouse, only to hate it, ditch it, and go back to fixing my old mx300 with some ducktape.
I first started really paying attention to the mice and mousepads I use when I joined a UT2K4 clan. I found I played the game SIGNIFICANTLY better with lower sensitivity and have kept my mice at low sensitivity for every game ever since.
As for mousepads, I've had an expensive large one, and now use a medium sized cheap Belkin one. I like the medium sized Belkin one better actually, and it was like $30 cheaper. It fits easily on my desk and I can play all the games I want without any problem.
On April 16 2009 09:54 EscPlan9 wrote: I first started really paying attention to the mice and mousepads I use when I joined a UT2K4 clan. I found I played the game SIGNIFICANTLY better with lower sensitivity and have kept my mice at low sensitivity for every game ever since.
As for mousepads, I've had an expensive large one, and now use a medium sized cheap Belkin one. I like the medium sized Belkin one better actually, and it was like $30 cheaper. It fits easily on my desk and I can play all the games I want without any problem.
Well mousepad size isn't going to do anything to your mouse control at all unless it's so small you go off the edges..
If you find you are better with the Belkin one it's certainly because of the texture.
Anyways yes, any competitive FPS player knows that you are faster and more accurate with low sensitivity. Pair that with the fact that you can also train yourself to also be very fast on larger mouse movements like minimap click as well and it becomes pretty obvious even without referencing the sensitivity of all korean progamers that low sensitivity is the way to go.
It's just not something the foreign RTS world or gaming mouse manufacturers have come to realize yet.
On April 16 2009 09:54 EscPlan9 wrote: I first started really paying attention to the mice and mousepads I use when I joined a UT2K4 clan. I found I played the game SIGNIFICANTLY better with lower sensitivity and have kept my mice at low sensitivity for every game ever since.
As for mousepads, I've had an expensive large one, and now use a medium sized cheap Belkin one. I like the medium sized Belkin one better actually, and it was like $30 cheaper. It fits easily on my desk and I can play all the games I want without any problem.
Well mousepad size isn't going to do anything to your mouse control at all unless it's so small you go off the edges..
If you find you are better with the Belkin one it's certainly because of the texture.
Anyways yes, any competitive FPS player knows that you are faster and more accurate with low sensitivity. Pair that with the fact that you can also train yourself to also be very fast on larger mouse movements like minimap click as well and it becomes pretty obvious even without referencing the sensitivity of all korean progamers that low sensitivity is the way to go.
It's just not something the foreign RTS world or gaming mouse manufacturers have come to realize yet.
I like it better partially because of the softer texture, but also because of the size (just the right size so I don't go off the edges or need to lift the mouse often) and the price. IIRC it was like $6.
Point, yes. Click.. there's no actual click to it. I like the lack of annoying click sounds, but it's kinda shitty for games since the weight of my finger is enough to make it click.
And yeah, I used to play CS, with low sens using a combination of arm and wrist/finger movements. Before that, I used high sens for everything, so either is fine with me. In Windows I use 1.5" = 1280px, so I guess it's be 0.75" across for SC. It's probably a little low for Popoint, but I was limited by how fast I mentally processed the numbers, not by how fast I could get to them. Probably needed to sit a little further back so there's less eye movement involved.
wtf... if i make it so that i need to move it 1.5 inches to get from left side of screen to right side in game, holy crap i cant even move my units rite, it takes forever just to tell my scouting scv to go to this spawn location and this overlord to move there and even takes a long time to do a split...
Uhm, what resolution did you test at? Because moving from one side of the screen to the other on a 1280x1024 resolution is going to be different than 1920x1200. I guess not ingame though.
On April 17 2009 07:44 SonuvBob wrote: Point, yes. Click.. there's no actual click to it. I like the lack of annoying click sounds, but it's kinda shitty for games since the weight of my finger is enough to make it click.
And yeah, I used to play CS, with low sens using a combination of arm and wrist/finger movements. Before that, I used high sens for everything, so either is fine with me. In Windows I use 1.5" = 1280px, so I guess it's be 0.75" across for SC. It's probably a little low for Popoint, but I was limited by how fast I mentally processed the numbers, not by how fast I could get to them. Probably needed to sit a little further back so there's less eye movement involved.
If your resolution is 1280x then your desktop sensitivity is perfect and I would use iccup launcher to achieve the same sensitivity in game.
Hmmm I forgot to take into account that you all still use mouse scroll to play RTS and I use the mouse3 button and thus don't have to go to the edge of the screen.
Gonna edit OP to say sens should be something between 1 and 1.5.
thanks for the awesome tip! my sensitivity was very high, but now that i've lowered it, i find splittling my workers, and other menial micro tasks a lot easier. (i used to misclick a lot)
On April 19 2009 04:10 da_head wrote: thanks for the awesome tip! my sensitivity was very high, but now that i've lowered it, i find splittling my workers, and other menial micro tasks a lot easier. (i used to misclick a lot)
Awesome dude I'm really glad to hear that. It will just get better and better for a while now.
I'm using a SteelSeries 4D Plastic Mouse Surface at the moment I really love it tho it isn't really durable as I start feeling allot of friction after 2weeks of use already. So I'm not sure if i should buy a other mousepad or just the same one again. I fear that I will start feeling friction with all of them because I paly pretty much 24/7.
On April 18 2009 14:42 Dead9 wrote: I gave up and increased my mouse sensitivity :[
On April 18 2009 11:08 ramen247 wrote: wtf... if i make it so that i need to move it 1.5 inches to get from left side of screen to right side in game, holy crap i cant even move my units rite, it takes forever just to tell my scouting scv to go to this spawn location and this overlord to move there and even takes a long time to do a split...
What is your opinion on mouse acceleration ? I played with slightly accelerated mouse since i started playing starcraft and i am used to it, but i don't think it is good. I am not very accurate and i would like to get better with that.
Mouse accel can be useful, but only if you can be accurate with it. You say you're used to it, but if you're not accurate, there's something wrong. Try disabling accel and fiddling with your sens.
From the OP:
Not surprisingly it's just too hard to be consistent with any acceleration.
It's hard, but not impossible. I can see how it could help with SC: you can move to the edge of the screen much faster while still having low enough sens for great accuracy. With practice you can be accurate enough with high sens and no accel though, so accel's probably not worth the learning curve.
On April 22 2009 06:43 lMPERVlOUS wrote: Question.
HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU DO THAT IN 2.5 SECONDS? THAT'S NUTS!!!
Seriously, I can get about 3.5 at best, with the average around 4.5. I feel like I'm going as fast as possible though.
I also found that when I increased or decreased my mouse sensitivity, my results got worse. I guess I'm already at the right sensitivity for me.
No this is a huge mistake that most people make, you can't just change your sensitivity and then have it not show immediate results and give up. Of course you will get the best results with what you are used to. That doesn't mean it is what maximizes your potential.
Think of it like new shoes, you can buy $500 shoes but they won't feel right the first time you put them on but that doesn't mean your 3 year old converses are better for potential raising.
Go until about 1.3 inches to get across your whole screen and try it for a week, use iccup launcher to achieve this ingame as well.
Again, this is if you care about getting the best from yourself... 1 week, it's not a big commitment and it's pretty suck how many people are hesitant to make it.
EDIT: Also if your best time is a full second from your average time, this speaks VERY loudly about your lack of consistency, change your mouse if you want to fix this. I can routinely go over 5 games at a time without a single misclick.
On April 22 2009 06:41 SonuvBob wrote: I think you answered your own question. :p
Mouse accel can be useful, but only if you can be accurate with it. You say you're used to it, but if you're not accurate, there's something wrong. Try disabling accel and fiddling with your sens.
Not surprisingly it's just too hard to be consistent with any acceleration.
It's hard, but not impossible. I can see how it could help with SC: you can move to the edge of the screen much faster while still having low enough sens for great accuracy. With practice you can be accurate enough with high sens and no accel though, so accel's probably not worth the learning curve.
I disagree, I think any mouse accel is just awful. Your hand speed and reaction time will vary throughout the day based on any number of things such as fatigue or concentration, it basically adds a hugely complex variable to your mouse movements. This variable compounds any changes to your mousing environment as well, it's bad on it's own but it also makes everything else your hand-eye coordination brain function has to adapt to that much more difficult.
That doesn't mean you can't be better than an average mouse user with it on but I doubt anyone could get as fast or accurate as I am with my right hand with any mouse acceleration.
I just measured mine and it's about 1-1.25 inches to cross the screen. I need to have a reasonably high sensitivity because my desk setup doesn't give me much room between the keyboard and the side of the sliding shelf (for my keyboard and mouse).
For me the main problem is that I've been getting a lot of pain in my wrist recently and I'm wondering if it's because the arms of my chair are lower than the level of the surface. (I'm not sure though)
edit - Also, mouse acceleration is a really bad idea in my opinion. As the user above stated (the OP incidentally), it just adds another variable to contend with, when you're trying to be as consistent as possible.
I'd like to clarify that in the Logitech SetPoint software in Vista, the "pointer acceleration" setting speeds up the mouse just like the generic "pointer speed" setting. In this case, "acceleration" is perfectly ok and actually better than the generic speed setting in my experience; high generic speed causes pixel skipping for me whereas high "acceleration" does not.
On April 15 2009 23:26 Amber[LighT] wrote: i heard when your hand is on it's side you will get the most optimal positioning. I think there was a thread about this a while ago.
You mean this thing right?
I would agree that the positioning looks good but I haven't seen any mice with this design that allow you to use your fingers to help snap to the location you want which is really important.
These mice all have to be really large and heavy because the buttons are on the side which mean they have to make it easy for your thumb to offer counter-pressure or simply clicking can throw you off.
This is mostly speculation but I'm confident enough to not want to try it out with the current designs available... It's possible it could evolve into something good soon enough.
I bought it because of carpal tunnel issues, but because I had to squeeze it to control it precisely it actually hurt my wrist worse than a flat mouse. Clicking was off-balance, even with the weight, so playing starcraft with it was just lol. I don't recommend it to any gamer, or in general really, unless you want the novel experience of having a sideways mouse.
On April 22 2009 06:41 SonuvBob wrote: I think you answered your own question. :p
Mouse accel can be useful, but only if you can be accurate with it. You say you're used to it, but if you're not accurate, there's something wrong. Try disabling accel and fiddling with your sens.
From the OP:
Not surprisingly it's just too hard to be consistent with any acceleration.
It's hard, but not impossible. I can see how it could help with SC: you can move to the edge of the screen much faster while still having low enough sens for great accuracy. With practice you can be accurate enough with high sens and no accel though, so accel's probably not worth the learning curve.
I disagree, I think any mouse accel is just awful. Your hand speed and reaction time will vary throughout the day based on any number of things such as fatigue or concentration, it basically adds a hugely complex variable to your mouse movements. This variable compounds any changes to your mousing environment as well, it's bad on it's own but it also makes everything else your hand-eye coordination brain function has to adapt to that much more difficult.
That doesn't mean you can't be better than an average mouse user with it on but I doubt anyone could get as fast or accurate as I am with my right hand with any mouse acceleration.
I've seen accel used to great effect (and with great consistency) by FPS players, so I'm not so eager to dismiss it out of hand. SC doesn't need that level of accuracy though, and I definitely wouldn't recommend it for new players.
On April 22 2009 08:04 jtype wrote: I just measured mine and it's about 1-1.25 inches to cross the screen. I need to have a reasonably high sensitivity because my desk setup doesn't give me much room between the keyboard and the side of the sliding shelf (for my keyboard and mouse).
For me the main problem is that I've been getting a lot of pain in my wrist recently and I'm wondering if it's because the arms of my chair are lower than the level of the surface. (I'm not sure though)
edit - Also, mouse acceleration is a really bad idea in my opinion. As the user above stated (the OP incidentally), it just adds another variable to contend with, when you're trying to be as consistent as possible.
From what I've heard, you shouldn't be using armrests when typing or using the mouse. If you get any wrist pain, take a break and maybe do some wrist exercises.
As long as your ok with never being close to this good -->
I lowered my sensitivity even further and am now confident on being able to get under 2 seconds but I probably won't be doing it for a long time because I only switch over to my right hand to test stuff and it is still more capable than my left hand.
How fast you can go through that noob game has no bearing on Starcraft whatsoever. Just like there are different optimal speeds for Counterstrike and Quake, there might exist different optimal speeds for Starcraft and Popoint.
And I really dislike how you're claiming stuff with such certainty based on your own experiences alone.
You should try a career as a missionary.
*Edit: Nada's mouse usage isn't what's impressive imo. It's his hotkey usage and his left hand.
On February 10 2008 14:59 SonuvBob wrote: I expect someone to get under 2.
On February 10 2008 15:03 Aileon wrote: Under 2 would be retarded. You would just have to get an insane break on the blocks. ie have them all line up perfectly.
I don't recall anyone ever getting below 4 last time we did these threads, so I really don't see where the "I expect someone to get 1.xxx" is coming from, but ok.
On April 22 2009 10:35 LaLuSh wrote: How fast you can go through that noob game has no bearing on Starcraft whatsoever. Just like there are different optimal speeds for Counterstrike and Quake, there might exist different optimal speeds for Starcraft and Popoint.
And I really dislike how you're claiming stuff with such certainty based on your own experiences alone.
You should try a career as a missionary.
It's not just on my results, every single progamer uses sensitivity similar to mine. I realize popoint is not starcraft, but being able to mouse scroll is absolutely as sensitive as you could ever need your sensitivity to be and most people are playing with sensitivity WAY too high.
I'm just trying to inform people that low sensitivity = more accuracy so they should all take serious time figuring out the lowest possible sensitivity where they can still use mouse scroll when it is necessary...
and when I say figure out I don't mean test something for 3 minutes and say omg this is unbearable, that's why I say cut your sensitivity down a TON and try it for a week and then adjust from there.
If your saying my blind faith can lead me towards a career as a missionary I would argue your ignorance is a much more compelling gateway to a job like that.
Wrist-moving is the absolute most you should stretch it when it comes to starcraft.
Let's take Counterstrike as an example. Smooth movements are premiered, but also fast and extremely accurate reaction movements. This requires a low sensitivity and use of your whole arm on a (preferrably) large mouse pad. Optimally your hand should hang freely in the air. Your wrist shouldn't rest on the mat nor the table. 180 degree turns, while pretty scarce, require use of the entire mousepad and an alert arm.
It's counterpart Quake, however, requires constant changes in direction. It's fast paced. Requires movements to be carried out fast rather than with full smoothness and accuracy (which still are important nonetheless). You can't go flapping your arm around in Quake or you'd soon run out of mouse pad after 2 or 3 consecutive 180 degree turns in one direction. And the time it takes to lift the mouse from the mouse pad over to the other side just doesn't pay off, it rather punishes you by slowing you down (if you have a low sensitivity).
I would compare Starcraft more to Quake than to Counterstrike. Movements have to be carried out with the least amount of time assigned to each and every move. FLapping around your arm too much does not help achieve greater efficiency. Quite to the contrary, it's detrimental. Accuracy is of importance, but not even close to that of Counterstrike. It's a fast paced game. Thus every fraction of a second your mouse spends above the mouse pad en route to a new position is wasted time.
And on this note I'd like to address NaDa. Who undoubtedly is one of the fastest players around. Although I would label him average when it comes to his right mouse hand. Nada is fairly slow/average for a progamer with his cursor. It stays centered in the same position for most of the game. Instead. The second dimension of Starcraft kicks in. One that does not exist for many other games. The LEFT hand. Hotkeys. Nada is undoubtedly one of the best and fastest left hand hotkey users in the world. He relies upon hotkeys more than anything to move his screen from one frame to another.
That is where-in the difference lies between a player like nada and, say, Bisu (among others). Bisu frantically uses his mouse cursor to change between frames during mid to late game.
The unique extra hand mechanic of Starcraft serves an important purpose imo. It allows for the variation of mouse speeds and game/personality styles. Both hotkey centered and mouse centered players exist. And usually all these players are overcompensating with one hand for their lack of dexterity with the other.
Let me post my own youtube clip:
Do you see boxer moving his wrist like Nada? No? I wonder how that is and if that makes him a noob according to the Holy Scripture as put forth by InReach.
The way I play I couldn't bare spending 0.1s extra moving/lifting my mouse the way Nada does. Just as he couldn't bare not cycling through his hotkey pattern a hundred times a minute. Each makes us unique in our own way.
Your article was great. It'd be even better if you removed the part about sensitivity though. Because imho you've got it all wrong, and you're basing it all on your highly subjective findings.
On April 22 2009 10:45 LaLuSh wrote: Every single progamer? How many have you asked?
Ok I'm basing this off of all the ones I saw at blizzcon and all vods where I've seen progamers moving their mouse and the fact that in the korean progaming world they seem to often reach a consensus that is followed extremely consistently.
EG: 99.9% of them all use the same keyboard and mouse.
The lower sensitivity is, the less straight your mouse has to move from point A to point B.
You have a MUCH bigger acceptable margin of error for mouse movements.
When I use my mouse to play an RTS or a mouse accuracy game, it doesn't matter how far I have to actually move my mouse, it literally just snaps to it's location immediately.
You simply can't do this with high sensitivity. Watch the popoint video.. my spawns are actually horrendous.. the blocks I have to hit in succession are very far from each other.
Distance doesn't matter when you use low sensitivity(to a point of course), it's paradoxical but it's true.
On April 22 2009 10:45 LaLuSh wrote: Every single progamer? How many have you asked?
Wrist-moving is the absolute most you should stretch it when it comes to starcraft.
Let's take Counterstrike as an example. Smooth movements are premiered, but also fast and extremely accurate reaction movements. This requires a low sensitivity and use of your whole arm on a (preferrably) large mouse pad. Optimally your hand should hang freely in the air. Your wrist shouldn't rest on the mat nor the table. 180 degree turns, while pretty scarce, require use of the entire mousepad and an alert arm.
It's counterpart Quake, however, requires constant changes in direction. It's fast paced. Requires movements to be carried out fast rather than with full smoothness and accuracy (which still are important nonetheless). You can't go flapping your arm around in Quake or you'd soon run out of mouse pad after 2 or 3 consecutive 180 degree turns in one direction. And the time it takes to lift the mouse from the mouse pad over to the other side just doesn't pay off, it rather punishes you by slowing you down (if you have a low sensitivity).
I would compare Starcraft more to Quake than to Counterstrike. Movements have to be carried out with the least amount of time assigned to each and every move. FLapping around your arm too much does not help achieve greater efficiency. Quite to the contrary, it's detrimental. Accuracy is of importance, but not even close to that of Counterstrike. It's a fast paced game. Thus every fraction of a second your mouse spends above the mouse pad en route to a new position is wasted time.
And on this note I'd like to address NaDa. Who undoubtedly is one of the fastest players around. Although I would label him average when it comes to his right mouse hand. Nada is fairly slow/average for a progamer with his cursor. It stays centered in the same position for most of the game. Instead. The second dimension of Starcraft kicks in. One that does not exist for many other games. The LEFT hand. Hotkeys. Nada is undoubtedly one of the best and fastest left hand hotkey users in the world. He relies upon hotkeys more than anything to move his screen from one frame to another.
That is where-in the difference lies between a player like nada and, say, Bisu (among others). Bisu frantically uses his mouse cursor to change between frames during mid to late game.
The unique extra hand mechanic of Starcraft serves an important purpose imo. It allows for the variation of mouse speeds and game/personality styles. Both hotkey centered and mouse centered players exist. And usually all these players are overcompensating with one hand for their lack of dexterity with the other.
Do you see boxer moving his wrist like Nada? No? I wonder how that is and if that makes him a noob according to the Holy Scripture as put forth by InReach.
The way I play I couldn't bare spending 0.1s extra moving/lifting my mouse the way Nada does. Just as he couldn't bare not cycling through his hotkey pattern a hundred times a minute. Each makes us unique in our own way.
Your article was great. It'd be even better if you removed the part about sensitivity though. Because imho you've got it all wrong, and you're basing it all on your highly subjective findings.
Before I read your post, you know that video is over 6 years old right?
Wow please don't compare my suggestion to CS, they have their sensitivity way lower than I am calling for...
I never condoned using your arm, I don't move mine AT ALL, ever.
You found one progamer video that's absurdly outdated that refutes my point of never seeing current progamers use high sens and you think that's an argument?
Stop trying to justify your own laziness of being unwilling to try it out for a week.
I've been were you are, I drop sens down for 30 seconds and it's unbearable and so I ramp it back up.
What do you have to lose honestly?
Just fucking play with nada sensitivity for one week and play the mouse accuracy game every few days. I'm not asking you to take my word for it, you will be more accurate that you have ever been before in under a week.
It's impossible to get times like mine with quake sensitivity and yes it is not exactly, but still is VERY applicable to starcraft and I guarentee over 95% of current progamers would agree with me.
4.58 seconds on the number game- with a wireless Microsoft, 1200dpi shitty mouse. the mouse pad i found in my basement, is felt and old. My mouse is as sensitive as possible, and is for a lap top. So it is also small. I use just my fingers to control the mouse, and some of my fingers touch the mouse pad.
Looks like all of your assumptions just don't hold true.
Special mouse: 40$ Special MousePad: 70$
Winning the game with a pile of shit? Priceless!
Edit: Practicing more at this game: 3.97 Edit: Practicing more at this game: 3.734
On April 22 2009 15:19 Misrah wrote: 4.58 seconds on the number game- with a wireless Microsoft, 1200dpi shitty mouse. the mouse pad i found in my basement, is felt and old. My mouse is as sensitive as possible, and is for a lap top. So it is also small. I use just my fingers to control the mouse, and some of my fingers touch the mouse pad.
Looks like all of your assumptions just don't hold true.
Dropping my sensitivity lowered my time on that game to around 4:00ish (I think I might have gotten 3:58 , it was 5ish before). Since doing so I've been playing with a lowered sensitivity in SC, and my eapm has jumped around 10-15 points. I'm uncertain as to how much I should lower it though. I have one other pressing question that may sound absurd to many, but I feel is valid : balled mice or optical mice? I use a balled mouse and find it to be surprisingly more precise and accurate than most optical ones, but that may just be because I've never used an extremely expensive laser mouse.
On April 23 2009 02:04 Nevuk wrote: Dropping my sensitivity lowered my time on that game to around 4:00ish (I think I might have gotten 3:58 , it was 5ish before). Since doing so I've been playing with a lowered sensitivity in SC, and my eapm has jumped around 10-15 points. I'm uncertain as to how much I should lower it though. I have one other pressing question that may sound absurd to many, but I feel is valid : balled mice or optical mice? I use a balled mouse and find it to be surprisingly more precise and accurate than most optical ones, but that may just be because I've never used an extremely expensive laser mouse.
Hey man, I'm glad to hear you're seeing some results.
So basically, your final goal should be; to have your mouse sensitivity as low as possible while still being able to use mouse scroll when necessary.
Some things to note: -Most people use mouse scroll too much, make sure you use it for short distances only -Use the minimap whenever possible -It takes time to really know if a sensitivity is too low -You will get VERY fast with your mouse but it takes some time
What I would do is find a sensitivity that you are sure is too low and then go into any BW campaign map and turn off fog of war. Cheat is blacksheepwall
Just navigate the map for a while, a long while, even if it feels unbearable at first stick with it because your body takes time to adjust and the adjustment will carry over to the next test.
Use mouse scroll but also minimap a lot, click on somewhere on the minimap, then click on an object in that screen and continue.
You should be able to get an approximation from doing this.
Set your mouse to the lowest sensitivity within that range and then play a few games.. or even play for a week. DO NO CHANGE IT UNTIL YOU ARE SURE.
That's it.. go up sensitivity one notch at a time but be thorough as fuck so when you find a sensitivity you are fully confident in your decision.
It will let you increment your sensitivity in half notches instead of full ones.
Ok, as for your mouse.
There are a lot of reasons that you might prefer your ball mouse.. weight,shape or you could just be used to it.
It is bassically impossible for it to actually be because it is a ball mouse.. you might just be used to the centered weight of the ball itself.
Lowering your sensitivity should help you evolve into not being dependent on this. If you wanna take pics of your mice and your hand on them I can try to be more helpful.
On April 23 2009 10:33 lMPERVlOUS wrote: So, I measured my current sensitivity - it takes 1 3/8 inch to go from one side of the screen to the other.
I guess I was already in the right ball-park.
EDIT - that's probably the reason why I didn't notice any improvement by lowering my sensitivity.
EDIT 2 - My mouse is as light as a feather, but I don't have a good mouse pad. Anything in particular I should look for in a mouse pad?
This is something I can't give advice on with as much conviction as sensitivity.
Just 3 days ago I actually bought a nylon mousepad just so I could try it out..
I remember, years ago, sometimes with my old mousepad I would try to concentrate on putting no weight at all on my mouse at all and achieve this feeling of liquidity, like completely smooth movements.
I can say my current mousepad achieves this feeling better than any other out there, but I can't say that feeling is the most important factor when selecting a mousepad.
Hand strength is likely a factor.. if you have huge hands you may not be able to give my mousepad the delicacy it needs.
This is the mouse I bought recently. I absolutely love it.
It's incredibly light and smooth, and it's got a 1600 dpi laser, with a frame rate of 6700 frames/second, so it is more than capable with keeping up to quick movements accurately. The buttons are easy to press, but they will not accidentally click.
As a bonus, it's got a retractable cord, so you can make it any length needed. This is really useful for me, because I am using a laptop. I've always found that Nexxtech has good quality - I'm still using a number of other products I bought from them years ago. It is reasonably cheap too.
As for the mousepad I have - it's garbage. I need a new one. I'll give you some feedback when I get it (it won't be at least until the weekend, I've got an exam tomorrow, and another one friday.....).
For me, hand strength is an issue. I originally got into uni on a football scholarship, but I got cut during training camp. My hands, and hand strength, are huge. If you've got any feedback on this, I'd like to know before I make a purchase.
When I mentioned hand strength it was just a passing observation that it could be an influential variable.. The truth is there are far too many variables, to the point that I can't use my experience and logic to give you an answer I am 100% confident in, while I do believe 100% in the conclusions I have come to about mouse sensitivity.
I would bet money that this aluminum, smooth as water mousepad I am using now being either the best or very similar to the best mousepad for raising human potential with a mouse.
But I would not bet my cat on it.
If one of the reasons you like a small mouse is because it reduces that drag, then try mine out.. It is expensive though
The best advice I can give you when trying out almost any computer peripheral is when you buy it and open it up, don't even consider trying to formulate an opinion for at least a few days.
Just forget your using something different than you were yesterday, put it out of your mind.
Opinions are infinitely more reliable when they are not rushed.
Years ago, when I was heavily into Quake, I tried a lot of different mousepads. It was the time, when the first gaming mousepads came out. In the end I stuck with an Allsop Raindrop cloth pad for $6. Friction is much higher than with a hard pad, which helped a lot with the consistency of my aim on bad days (speaking of "hand strength").
I'm guessing that with "smooth as water", inReacH means that "sliding" and "static" friction should be the same (I hope those are correct english terms). The Allsop cloth pad was the cheapest cloth pad I found, where the mouse never feels stuck on the pad, and the mousepad is washable (I think it's over six years old by now). Also, this is the cheapest cloth pad I found, where the friction feels the same in all directions.
Additionally, cloth pads don't eat the mouse feet (all hard pads I tried destroyed them).
On April 22 2009 06:41 SonuvBob wrote: I think you answered your own question. :p
Mouse accel can be useful, but only if you can be accurate with it. You say you're used to it, but if you're not accurate, there's something wrong. Try disabling accel and fiddling with your sens.
From the OP:
Not surprisingly it's just too hard to be consistent with any acceleration.
It's hard, but not impossible. I can see how it could help with SC: you can move to the edge of the screen much faster while still having low enough sens for great accuracy. With practice you can be accurate enough with high sens and no accel though, so accel's probably not worth the learning curve.
I disagree, I think any mouse accel is just awful. Your hand speed and reaction time will vary throughout the day based on any number of things such as fatigue or concentration, it basically adds a hugely complex variable to your mouse movements. This variable compounds any changes to your mousing environment as well, it's bad on it's own but it also makes everything else your hand-eye coordination brain function has to adapt to that much more difficult.
That doesn't mean you can't be better than an average mouse user with it on but I doubt anyone could get as fast or accurate as I am with my right hand with any mouse acceleration.
I've seen accel used to great effect (and with great consistency) by FPS players, so I'm not so eager to dismiss it out of hand. SC doesn't need that level of accuracy though, and I definitely wouldn't recommend it for new players.
Me and my friend used to have arguments about this all the time. We both played Q3 fairly well, but he used to play with 0 mouse accel, while I played with a small mouse accel. As I used to enjoy the slightly more high-speed versions of quake (such as CA) where you had no way of preventing someone from dropping in behind you at times, and where you had to move at high speeds, I found accel very good for this. On the other hand, it did mean that there were days where I would be just a touch out of sorts, and miss every single shot. So yeah, I think there are FPS situations where mouse accel will be useful, but it does have its problems.
Wooooooooooo, just got 2.969 on popoint with my left hand! Took about 5 months but it would have been a lot less than that if I was using correct sensitivity the whole time.
OMG that Razer guy is pathetic...... ugh Razer sucks so bad...... if only they made real quality products and didn't sacrifice everything for pretty lights I would actually buy their products..... Their headphones are atrcocious garbage, their mice are subpar, and their keyboards are completely unecessary....
and keyboard? Give me a break.... I want a STURDY keyboard, not some laptop keyboard imitation with pretty lights..... FUCK YOU RAZER GUY! hahaha.....
*Let me just say that I don't hate Razer, i just think they capatalize on people thinking they have to have gamer specialized "gear" in order to make anything of themselves....
After trying this out for 3-4 days, I've realized a couple of things. 1. My precision in micro situations has improved quite a bit. It helps my early game and battle micro. 2. It hurts my speed in multitasking, general macro and reaction speed (as in walking multiple groups of M&M into lurkers, needing to quickly pull back, stormdodging multiple hydra groups etc) 3.Another very important aspect: It puts a lot of additional strain on underarm muscles and the wrist, and to a degree the rotatorcuff. If you play with it for a longer period, the strain will of course decrease (as you get used to it), but never fully. As with all training, the body adapts to new circumstances, but only to a degree. What you need to ask yourself is if you're willing to trade additional precision in this game for possible muscle soreness or even inflammations. Personally I try to compromize; I decrease my sense a little bit for that extra precision, but increase it if I feel pain in my wrist/arm/shouldergirdle.
EPT
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