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16987 Posts
...and tries to kill herself.
Depressing read, honestly. It seems that we see these kinds of stories more and more recently, which is just awful.
A WOMAN lured her five children upstairs one by one and slit their throats before trying to kill herself, a court has been told.
Belgian woman Genevieve Lhermitte, 42, is on trial for the murders of her four daughters and son, aged from three to 14.
Asked to identify herself and profession at the start of the trial, she said she was "a mother".
Prosecutor Pierre Rans painted a nightmarish picture of the scene that met emergency services on February 28, 2007 at the former teacher's home in Nivelles, central Belgium.
Ms Lhermitte was found sitting against a wall in the hall with a deep gash in her throat.
She tried to commit suicide after killing her children, she allegedly told an emergency worker.
Police discovered the children's bodies in their beds with their throats slit and the floor and walls covered with blood.
The trial, expected to last about two weeks, will focus on what drove Ms Lhermitte to allegedly kill her children since she has confessed to their murders.
Seeing no solution to her problems and unable to imagine her children living without her, Ms Lhermitte heard a voice say to her on the day of the murders that "the machine has begun working", she allegedly told investigators.
With her husband due to return any time from a trip to Morocco, she called her seven-year-old daughter Mina upstairs from watching television with her sisters and brother, the court was told.
Armed with a butcher's knife, Ms Lhermitte comforted the girl as she laid her on the bed then strangled her and cut her throat, the court was told.
She then got the other four children to come upstairs one by one and killed them as well.
From the dock, Ms Lhermitte looked out stone-faced without her gaze falling on Bouchaib Moqadem, the father of her children, who sat in the first row next to family friend Michel Schaar.
Ms Lhermitte, who was in a deep depression at the time of the murders, allegedly told investigators she could no longer stand the presence of Mr Schaar, which she considered to be "intrusive".
In a farewell letter left in a friend's letterbox shortly before the murders, Ms Lhermitte allegedly said: "I have taken the decision to go very far away with my children forever.''
In the letter, she accused her husband of being deaf to her distress and accused Mr Schaar, on whom the family had depended financially for years, of wanting to run her household.
The trial continues.
From Agence France-Presse, online "reprint" by The Australian.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24773458-12335,00.html
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It's stuff like this that makes me scoff at the idea of an all powerful benevolent god.
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that is fairly sickening. Also the fact that I cannot think of any puns, is also sickening.
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Life is so fragile
People are so fragile.
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one of those things that just don't make sense :/
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God dammit.
I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this.
I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids.
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On December 10 2008 06:45 funkie wrote:God dammit. I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this. I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids.
I wonder how the father feels...or actually, I don't think I want to know.
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On December 10 2008 06:51 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:45 funkie wrote:God dammit. I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this. I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids. I wonder how the father feels...or actually, I don't think I want to know.
IM FREE!!
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!
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I'm personally not very comfortable with the typical e-flippancy some ppl have on TL. I mean as ppl always say this isn't 4chan, the mature response isn't to find cheap humour in a gross act of evil. But maybe that is what TL is about, and all but a few internet forums.
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On December 10 2008 06:55 Ichigo1234551 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:51 NotSupporting wrote:On December 10 2008 06:45 funkie wrote:God dammit. I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this. I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids. I wonder how the father feels...or actually, I don't think I want to know. IM FREE!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!
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On December 10 2008 06:58 HamerD wrote:
I'm personally not very comfortable with the typical e-flippancy some ppl have on TL. I mean as ppl always say this isn't 4chan, the mature response isn't to find cheap humour in a gross act of evil. But maybe that is what TL is about, and all but a few internet forums.
In every group there will be a few...morons...I don't think it should be attributed to greater TL. This is the internet, where 14 year olds get their rocks off by being anonymous douchebags.
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Wow, what is wrong with the world?
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On December 10 2008 07:02 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:58 HamerD wrote:
I'm personally not very comfortable with the typical e-flippancy some ppl have on TL. I mean as ppl always say this isn't 4chan, the mature response isn't to find cheap humour in a gross act of evil. But maybe that is what TL is about, and all but a few internet forums. In every group there will be a few...morons...I don't think it should be attributed to greater TL. This is the internet, where 14 year olds get their rocks off by being anonymous douchebags.
I agree but like Hammer said, not everybody is like that on TL. Also, did the mother strangle the 14 year old boy and then slit his throat?
Im sure it depends on how strong you are at 14 but I think that boy didn't go down without resistance IF she strangled him and then slit his throat.
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I agree, I said that it shouldn't be attributed to greater TL.
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They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress.
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On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress.
yeah, cruel for the people paying to keep her alive
when you slash 5 throats like that, you forfeit your right to live
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i think she should rot in prison, why let her kill herself and get away with it. let her sit in jail thinking aobut the things shes done.
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On December 10 2008 06:55 Ichigo1234551 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:51 NotSupporting wrote:On December 10 2008 06:45 funkie wrote:God dammit. I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this. I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids. I wonder how the father feels...or actually, I don't think I want to know. IM FREE!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!
not funny bro
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Belgium6771 Posts
Yeah this is seriously disgusting
always think stuff like this happens far away from home but goddamn belgium has had its share of fucked up people <_<
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Every country has fucked up shit. From a statistical point of view, it's not worth caring about this shit; i think it's reasonable to assume that this won't happen to 'us'.
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On December 10 2008 07:53 kc wrote:
i think she should rot in prison, why let her kill herself and get away with it. let her sit in jail thinking aobut the things shes done.
because it costs money and time to keep scum like that alive, and everyone risks the chance of her getting out and hacking some kids throat again because she feels 'depressed'.
do you really want idiots that kill 5 kids, their own kids, still alive?
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Obviously a nut case. Poor kids.
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That's fucking disgusting
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On December 10 2008 07:53 kc wrote:
i think she should rot in prison, why let her kill herself and get away with it. let her sit in jail thinking aobut the things shes done.
Well, seeing that she is not a sane person, and most likely suffering some serious mental issues, I'm not sure if she can really think "in the correct direction" about what she has done.
All I can say is sad...
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On December 10 2008 08:01 JohnColtrane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:53 kc wrote:
i think she should rot in prison, why let her kill herself and get away with it. let her sit in jail thinking aobut the things shes done. because it costs money and time to keep scum like that alive, and everyone risks the chance of her getting out and hacking some kids throat again because she feels 'depressed'. do you really want idiots that kill 5 kids, their own kids, still alive?
It would still cost a shitload to execute her and the chances of her getting out and "hacking some kids throat again" are so slim its ridiculous that you would even try to use that as an argument.
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On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress.
Imho the death penalty is pure bullshit. So basically a bastard could kill hundreds of people in nasty twisted ways and all he would get would be a few lame trials some grub and a nice and cozy death by lethal injection. Bastards like that deserve to rot away in prison forever. All alone with the thoughts of their twisted deeds.
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Aging from three to fourteen? The walls were covered in blood? Very gruesome and what a sickening person she is.
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WTF that is so screwed up, I think she should have her neck cut just a bit to make her casp for breath but still let her live. She had no right to take the lives of her children that is beyond screwed up!
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I'm torn on the legality of cruel and unusual punishment.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
What I'd give to wring her throat with my hands, absolutely disgusting.
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On December 10 2008 12:34 lesser_good wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress. Imho the death penalty is pure bullshit. So basically a bastard could kill hundreds of people in nasty twisted ways and all he would get would be a few lame trials some grub and a nice and cozy death by lethal injection. Bastards like that deserve to rot away in prison forever. All alone with the thoughts of their twisted deeds.
while i may be inclined to agree, i'm certainly not inclined to pay for their life in prison &_&
Sick shit... sick world...
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All his children murdered? The father should be allowed to beat her to death.
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im so sorry for the father, really
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On December 10 2008 08:00 Faronel wrote:
Every country has fucked up shit. From a statistical point of view, it's not worth caring about this shit; i think it's reasonable to assume that this won't happen to 'us'.
Uh we don't care out of fear of it happening to us, what kind of rediculous conclusion is that. What does the country even have to do with this.
People are outraged because the murder of children is one of the most detestable things a human can do.
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On December 10 2008 12:51 Spenguin wrote:
What I'd give to wring her throat with my hands, absolutely disgusting.
He who is perfect may be the one to cast the first stone. I think that this women probably has some serious mental issues. As a psychologist I would feel sorry for her and look at what she did as an act of desperate measures to escape her depression. As a person, I would want to beat her to a pulp for doing something so terrible to her own children.
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On December 10 2008 13:03 Motiva wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 12:34 lesser_good wrote:On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress. Imho the death penalty is pure bullshit. So basically a bastard could kill hundreds of people in nasty twisted ways and all he would get would be a few lame trials some grub and a nice and cozy death by lethal injection. Bastards like that deserve to rot away in prison forever. All alone with the thoughts of their twisted deeds. while i may be inclined to agree, i'm certainly not inclined to pay for their life in prison &_& Sick shit... sick world...
this shit is getting so old
first of all your parents are paying, not you, shut up
second the death penalty costs way more than a life imprisonment
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God this shit is depressing...
Let her rot.
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give her psychiatric attention better, letting her rot in prision solves nothing
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Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care.
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On December 10 2008 06:31 yoshtodd wrote:
It's stuff like this that makes me scoff at the idea of an all powerful benevolent god.
You can stop there.
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On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care.
are you kidding
I think there was actually too much money donated, terrible example. There was plenty of help sent. And obviously there is a lot of attention to this because it's more realistic to us than a tsunami.
What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in.
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Are you serious? The tsunamai was all over the news for weeks. If this story makes it to the news once, that'll be all it gets.
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FuDDx
United States5008 Posts
On December 10 2008 06:55 Ichigo1234551 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:51 NotSupporting wrote:On December 10 2008 06:45 funkie wrote:God dammit. I feel like really frustrated by things like this, because there's no way to "stop" them, since you never know who is going to explode and do something like this. I just hope those five kids, rest in peace and I hope to god that she can get her shit together so her time in jail she feels like fucking shit for killing the most precious things that you ever get in life. Your Kids. I wonder how the father feels...or actually, I don't think I want to know. IM FREE!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!
BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN FU you stupid inbreed fool BAN BAN
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United States10774 Posts
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On December 10 2008 13:15 Frits wrote:
Second the death penalty costs way more than a life imprisonment
That's only because the system is far from streamlined for dealing with people like, for example, this. A hugely expensive trial followed by waiting for ages on death row.
Afaik, this fact is as supported as it is disputed; and that's even for the CURRENT costs. If someone lives for 50 years in a LWOP sentence, there is every chance that he will cost much more to sustain than someone who lives for 10 and is executed on death row. Guess to find the real facts one would have to go to a library and find the supporting academic texts. Have you done that?
The costs of sentencing and executing someone who is very arguably guilty is, I would imagine, a lot more expensive than that of executing someone like this lady. I think we should have a line drawn around this lady's level. The level of Joseph Fritzl as well. Past that line, you die...no re trials, no special meetings or extra time for jury. If it just cannot be denied that you did it, and you don't try to protest it, you just die by lethal injection quickly and without huge investigations scraping for DNA in every house to find if there were some killer who could fly and pass through walls who made you stand still, slit the throats of your children, then told you if you said it were him he would come back to get you.
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On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care.
Acts of personal human evil are, to me, as shocking as acts of nature. I find it much easier to be horrified by evil than by neutrality.
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On December 10 2008 07:43 JohnColtrane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress. yeah, cruel for the people paying to keep her alive when you slash 5 throats like that, you forfeit your right to live
She dosnt WANT to live though.
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Why should the death penalty cost so much. Like $10 of electricity should easily do the job^^. Too bad im not in favour of the death penalty. For cases like this, they should be able to banish people...somewhere like australia or thereabouts, haha.
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On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care. are you kidding I think there was actually too much money donated, terrible example. There was plenty of help sent. And obviously there is a lot of attention to this because it's more realistic to us than a tsunami. What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in.
Are you done wallowing in your moral superiority?
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On December 10 2008 13:05 HeadBangaa wrote:
All his children murdered? The father should be allowed to beat her to death.
What? I guess you are for stoning too.
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She should have just killed herself. But no she thought she was the center of the universe and had to kill her kids first.
Frits has a point. You don't mean it when you say you would kill her. You wouldn't. It makes you an internet tough guy. And if you would, you are a nutcase.
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On December 10 2008 13:15 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:03 Motiva wrote:On December 10 2008 12:34 lesser_good wrote:On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress. Imho the death penalty is pure bullshit. So basically a bastard could kill hundreds of people in nasty twisted ways and all he would get would be a few lame trials some grub and a nice and cozy death by lethal injection. Bastards like that deserve to rot away in prison forever. All alone with the thoughts of their twisted deeds. while i may be inclined to agree, i'm certainly not inclined to pay for their life in prison &_& Sick shit... sick world... this shit is getting so old first of all your parents are paying, not you, shut up second the death penalty costs way more than a life imprisonment
First... Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.
Secondly I figured I would get this response, and I'm sorry it's getting so old for you... but I figured the death penalty was more expensive, but I don't know the numbers, and I don't really care, both numbers are far too high for my tastes... so yes... I'm still certainly not inclined to pay for their life in prison... neither are my parents... and we both pay taxes, I hope you -and- your parents pay taxes too....
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fucking stupid Mother...I honestly can't picture anyone with the right frame of mind murdering someone that is basically a part of themselves..
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On December 10 2008 06:50 Mandalor wrote:
I blame computer games.
gold
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
this makes me feel sick =/
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On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits wrote:
What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in.
well while we're at it... why would we have changed much at all from the middle ages? Theres no reason for any real change to our nature beyond the natural course obv...
and it's "except that a bunch of people made a system that most can function in"
but meh as for OP, this or "worse" happens all day everyday... If anything we're just suckers for media like everyone else... meh?
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Seeing no solution to her problems and unable to imagine her children living without her, Ms Lhermitte heard a voice say to her on the day of the murders that "the machine has begun working", she allegedly told investigators.
I don't really understand what this means but it creeps me out.
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On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care. are you kidding I think there was actually too much money donated, terrible example. There was plenty of help sent. And obviously there is a lot of attention to this because it's more realistic to us than a tsunami. What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in.
Frits, seriously, you need to get real.
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On December 10 2008 20:56 SwedishHero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits wrote:On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care. are you kidding I think there was actually too much money donated, terrible example. There was plenty of help sent. And obviously there is a lot of attention to this because it's more realistic to us than a tsunami. What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in. Frits, seriously, you need to get real.
I am pretty realistic (I study a behavioral science) it just bothers me to still see people behave like savages.
On December 10 2008 19:09 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits wrote:On December 10 2008 13:22 eth0x wrote:
Gotta love how when 5 people die, the media has a shit on everything, but you hear about the tsunami in the East in '04 where 200k people died, and nobody in the West seems to care. are you kidding I think there was actually too much money donated, terrible example. There was plenty of help sent. And obviously there is a lot of attention to this because it's more realistic to us than a tsunami. What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. She should die? You'd kill her yourself if you could? What the fuck is this shit. These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in. Are you done wallowing in your moral superiority?
Are you saying I should be ashamed for trying to inspire proper morals? lol
On December 10 2008 18:04 HamerD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:15 Frits wrote:
Second the death penalty costs way more than a life imprisonment That's only because the system is far from streamlined for dealing with people like, for example, this. A hugely expensive trial followed by waiting for ages on death row. Afaik, this fact is as supported as it is disputed; and that's even for the CURRENT costs. If someone lives for 50 years in a LWOP sentence, there is every chance that he will cost much more to sustain than someone who lives for 10 and is executed on death row. Guess to find the real facts one would have to go to a library and find the supporting academic texts. Have you done that? The costs of sentencing and executing someone who is very arguably guilty is, I would imagine, a lot more expensive than that of executing someone like this lady. I think we should have a line drawn around this lady's level. The level of Joseph Fritzl as well. Past that line, you die...no re trials, no special meetings or extra time for jury. If it just cannot be denied that you did it, and you don't try to protest it, you just die by lethal injection quickly and without huge investigations scraping for DNA in every house to find if there were some killer who could fly and pass through walls who made you stand still, slit the throats of your children, then told you if you said it were him he would come back to get you.
Great, a hamerd post. There goes my faith in humanity again. Do ethics mean anything to you? Drawing a line? Do you have any idea how easy it is to frame someone like that, no questions asked case over? Your idea goes against everything the justice system stands for. I guess you wouldn't understand because logical thought doesn't mean a lot to you (lol astrology).
Stick to reading horoscopes jackass.
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On December 11 2008 01:52 Jathin wrote:
It's funny, every time something tragic happens and it's posted here -- it's always the same stupid comments, just different names compared to a few years ago.
that hurts man
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On December 10 2008 23:12 Frits wrote:
Great, a hamerd post. There goes my faith in humanity again. Do ethics mean anything to you? Drawing a line? Do you have any idea how easy it is to frame someone like that, no questions asked case over? Your idea goes against everything the justice system stands for. I guess you wouldn't understand because logical thought doesn't mean a lot to you (lol astrology).
Ok well seriously if we can just cut through the ad hominem, are you recinding the economic objection and moving onto a moral defence of the pro-life sentence stance? About framing- I have no idea how easy that is, and probably neither do you. It is probably difficult but not impossible, but that's not what's up for question here. I don't know what your opinion is. Your blindly assuming that you have the philosophical higher ground shows, in my opinion, how little you have thought out your point of view.
I think that someone who is very dangerous to society should be made incapable of damaging innocent members of society (which means all the people in society) in the cheapest way possible.
I also think that people can prove themselves to be so intrinsically malicious as to devoid themselves of human rights- people can be beasts, with no reproach. In my opinion, whether it's their fault that they are the beast has nothing to do with it.
I also think there is a point at which evidence becomes too overwhelming for a defence case to ever be mustered. Probably only in a very small amount of cases though.
I think the idea of 'slippery slope' can sometimes paralyze the direct course of action. I think there should be a line set, higher than America's, beyond which, once crossed, the death penalty is swiftly activated. One might say 'if you allow the death sentence now then it will be allowed for more and more in the future', but I doubt that most west European countries would have that flimsy a system of justice. I would say that in America, the death sentence is too freely used.
A number of executions in Britain between 1957 and 1964 were for single acts of murder. I don't agree with that, personally. However, if you had a serial killer who openly admitted, with a wry smile, to gutting and raping the corpses of a group of children (not that any case would be as clear cut); I would say this person should be killed. Note that I wouldn't even say they deserve to die. I don't think it's an issue of revenge, or deserving anything. I just think that human society should deal with people like that the same way we deal with an enraged bear rampaging through the streets.
ps I mean the woman here tried to kill herself ANYWAY.
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I think that someone who is very dangerous to society should be made incapable of damaging innocent members of society (which means all the people in society) in the cheapest way possible.
fuck
I also think that people can prove themselves to be so intrinsically malicious as to devoid themselves of human rights-
you
And you call my point of view not well thought out, lol. How is it me who is assuming things? You have no idea about how well my point of view is thought out. You have no idea about the implications your point of view had on society would it be carried out. You completely miss the point of the judicial system, shut up.
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On December 11 2008 03:24 Frits wrote:
You have no idea about how well my point of view is thought out.
Well you never explicated your opinion. I don't deny that I was assuming you hadn't thought the subject out much. But that was just me saying that what you had said last post, showed that. Look, I'm sure you do have a well thought out point of view, but your assuming that you are correct makes it difficult to treat your blanket statements along the lines of 'of course I'm right' with respectp. The way you are talking either means that you ARE definitely right, or you are definitely stupid. I'm not saying you are either. Because you haven't really laid out your opinion.
On December 11 2008 03:24 Frits wrote:
You have no idea about the implications your point of view would have on society if it were to be carried out.
That probably means you disagree with my point of view, so can you give some hypothetical predictions as to what this course of action would lead to?
On December 11 2008 03:24 Frits wrote:
You completely miss the point of the judicial system
Actually, I think the point of the judicial system has always been to protect innocent members of society.
The rehabilitation side of the judicial system DOES have a separate mandate to the sentencing side, but I just have neglected to talk about it because I believe some people are beyond rehabilitation, from a financial point of view and from a practical point of view.
Can you explain to me what YOU think the point of the judicial system is?
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Utterly depressing, but these things are difficult to prevent, mental illness can go away hidden for a long time; especially when they're suppressed long enough and explode in a totally destructive manner.
mmm I don't see a point of having this open, I'm curious as to why it is so, can't imagine any kind of productive discussion being stemmed from this.
BTW I think its quite unfair to put all the hate on the mother, people who are sick in the head act beyond their personality and rationality do need serious medical attention. This was not a homicide driven by "rationalized" motives like revenge on a lover or monetary reasons, it was a highly desperate and delusional act of escape.
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On December 11 2008 03:36 QuietIdiot wrote:
BTW I think its quite unfair to put all the hate on the mother
I agree. I don't think anyone should hate her. They have no personal reason to. But how many people here *actually* hate her?
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On December 11 2008 03:38 HamerD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 03:36 QuietIdiot wrote:
BTW I think its quite unfair to put all the hate on the mother I agree. I don't think anyone should hate her. They have no personal reason to. But how many people here *actually* hate her?
People aren't feeling "hate", they're experiencing "empathy" with those adversely effected by the mother's actions, which naturally leads to extremely negative judgments about her. I guess it's indirect hate.
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On December 11 2008 03:45 HeadBangaa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 03:38 HamerD wrote:On December 11 2008 03:36 QuietIdiot wrote:
BTW I think its quite unfair to put all the hate on the mother I agree. I don't think anyone should hate her. They have no personal reason to. But how many people here *actually* hate her? People aren't feeling "hate", they're experiencing "empathy" with those adversely effected by the mother's actions, which naturally leads to extremely negative judgments about her. I guess it's indirect hate.
A sort of hate by proxy, which is completely understandable. Also, their defensive instincts (on the behalf of the kids who were killed) would lead them to react extremely negatively to the mother. It's all very vague I guess. I think hate can run cold and still be as strong...but hate by proxy probably doesn't. I would say that real hate would occupy one's every waking thought; whereas this is inspired when focusing on the issue. Extreme discomfort with her existence perhaps, or even hate of her actions or even the parts of her psyche which led to it; but actual hate towards her? Not sure.
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The point of the justice system is to deliver justice. (Seriously, how did you not get that?) Your ideas would destroy the foundations of the justice system. If money becomes a reason to hurry convictions than it's not really justice is it.
ps I mean the woman here tried to kill herself ANYWAY.
This is irrelevant to delivering justice, why bring it up.
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On December 11 2008 04:28 Frits wrote:
The point of the justice system is to deliver justice. (Seriously, how did you not get that?)
What do YOU mean when you say justice. Is justice EITHER:
'people getting what they deserve'
'rightfulness'?
Or is it something else? I think personally that the justice system should stay away from revenge. Do you really think it is so absurd to say that the point of the judicial system is to protect society from dangerous people? I think it's perfectly rational.
On December 11 2008 04:28 Frits wrote:
If money becomes a reason to hurry convictions then it's not really justice is it.
I agree, though that is vague. The word 'hurry' is subjective. If a decision takes 10 years to reach when the murderer has dryly admitted, after psychiatric evaluation, that he killed several people in cold bloodl I think that cutting the decision down to 1 year is not hurrying, imo it is making it the right length of decision making time. That it would end up costing less is of course a great benefit, but not the motivating reason.
On December 11 2008 04:28 Frits wrote:
This is irrelevant to delivering justice, why bring it up. Whimsy
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Justice is about doing what's fair to everyone. Every post you seem to forget that a criminal deserves to be handled with the same regard for justice as any other person. You're argueing about treating certain people unfairly, this the exact opposite of justice.
I agree, though that is vague. The word 'hurry' is subjective. If a decision takes 10 years to reach when the murderer has dryly admitted, after psychiatric evaluation, that he killed several people in cold bloodl I think that cutting the decision down to 1 year is not hurrying, imo it is making it the right length of decision making time. That it would end up costing less is of course a great benefit, but not the motivating reason.
Are you intentionally fucking with me here? The definition of hurrying something is doing something faster than it would normally take. It might be relative, but relative to the event, not relative to the person regarding it in this case.
And hurrying it would probably make it way more expensive, not cheapen it. Why do you think it goes so slow in the first place? Because the manpower it would take to do it faster takes even more money, not less. Besides, the person isn't going anywhere while this process is taking place. You have to accept that this is necessary to make the justice system seem fair to everyone.
Do you really think it is so absurd to say that the point of the judicial system is to protect society from dangerous people? I think it's perfectly rational.
This is one of the points of punishment, not justice. Sure, the justice system gives out punishment but not with the motive of protecting society. You will always be able to say that murder is unfair to one person, and that the person who did it deserves to be punished in order for justice to be served. You can not say however that the person who comitted murder deserves to be killed, this is completely relative to the times we live in.
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Are you saying I should be ashamed for trying to inspire proper morals?
There is a difference between making moral arguments and asserting your moral superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. We all do the former; doing the latter makes you a jackass.
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I'll reply to that after my band practise but quickly:
1. I have already explained that I think some people don't have a right to live (serial murderers with no remorse)
2. The word 'hurry' IS subjective. It probably takes a few hours for the death sentence to be passed by an angry mob in a devolved country. It may take 10 years to take so long in America. Neither 10 years or a few hours are the 'norms', and to be 'hurried' you would have to compare it to a norm.
3. A main reason why death sentences are so prolonged is because appeals are free, and is often used to keep people off the electric chair. Death sentences are on average more expensive because the trials use more evidence, the time spent in court will be longer, the amount of special time the jury gets to decide the verdict will be longer, etcetc. The reason people can have so many appeals is that people up for execution in America might have only killed 1 man, and not have confessed to it. There is a lot more scope for being wrong than if you only sentenced confessing serial murderers to death. It also costs about 3 times as much to support someone on death row than it does someone in LWOP. If they live 9 years less that will cut costs. That's just an aside.
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Frits, I don't even BELIEVE in punishment. I believe in the 3 r's....restraint, reform and realism.
restraint: restrain the dangerous person from the public
reform: stop people from being dangerous to the public
realism: if someone will never stop being dangerous, prevent them from ever interacting with the public.
So don't say that I favour punishment. If you didn't say that, then I misread you cos im in a rush and sorry.
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On December 11 2008 05:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:There is a difference between making moral arguments and asserting your moral superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. We all do the former; doing the latter makes you a jackass.
I did make an argument: People here seem to be intent on sentencing someone to death with no regard for what's fair, simply based on emotion, with no restraint. I think this is disgusting to watch, feel free to convince me otherwise.
If Im morally superior it's because you call me morally superior, not because I asserted it. I didn't assert anything, the evidence in this thread speaks for itself, the fact if it's disgusting or not can be discussed.
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On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 05:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:Are you saying I should be ashamed for trying to inspire proper morals? There is a difference between making moral arguments and asserting your moral superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. We all do the former; doing the latter makes you a jackass. I did make an argument: People here seem to be intent on sentencing someone to death with no regard for what's fair, simply based on emotion, with no restraint. I think this is disgusting to watch, feel free to convince me otherwise.
You did both.
On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:
If I'm morally superior it's because you call me morally superior, not because I asserted it.
Granted, you never actually said, "I am morally superior to you." However, the following:
On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits declared that he was one of the only people with a proper sense of moral thought:
What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought.
On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits called everyone who disagreed with him an idiot:
These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in.
is basically a paraphrase of the above.
On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:
I didn't assert anything, the evidence in this thread speaks for itself.
Assuming that you are correct and writing based off of this assumption, though it makes sense when considering your own arguments, isn't really conducive to thought when debating others who may not hold that same assumption.
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United States11637 Posts
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she was a world of warcraft progamer
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On December 11 2008 05:24 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:On December 11 2008 05:07 EmeraldSparks wrote:Are you saying I should be ashamed for trying to inspire proper morals? There is a difference between making moral arguments and asserting your moral superiority over everyone who disagrees with you. We all do the former; doing the latter makes you a jackass. I did make an argument: People here seem to be intent on sentencing someone to death with no regard for what's fair, simply based on emotion, with no restraint. I think this is disgusting to watch, feel free to convince me otherwise. You did both. Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:
If I'm morally superior it's because you call me morally superior, not because I asserted it. Granted, you never actually said, "I am morally superior to you." However, the following: Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits declared that he was one of the only people with a proper sense of moral thought:
What bothers me is that whenever we have one of these threads I realize how little people there are who actually maintain a proper sense of moral thought. Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:29 Frits called everyone who disagreed with him an idiot:
These threads always remind me that we're no fucking different from the way we were in the middle ages except that a bunch of good people made a system that idiots can function in. is basically a paraphrase of the above. Show nested quote +On December 11 2008 05:18 Frits wrote:
I didn't assert anything, the evidence in this thread speaks for itself. Assuming that you are correct and writing based off of this assumption, though it makes sense when considering your own arguments, isn't really conducive to thought when debating others who may not hold that same assumption.
Yes that's what having an opinion about something means: Assuming it is somewhat correct until convinced otherwise. What you are doing is assuming how open I am to these arguments, you're saying I am closed minded based on my opinion simply because it was frased harshly.
.... which is a bunch of bullshit, I am very open minded to any argument you have to offer. All you want to talk about however is how close minded I am for some reason based on faulty assumptions.
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On December 11 2008 05:40 Frits wrote:
Yes that's what having an opinion about something means: Assuming it is somewhat correct until convinced otherwise. What you are doing is assuming how open I am to these arguments, you're saying I am closed minded based on my opinion simply because it was phrased harshly.
I never accused you of being closed-minded. I accused you of being arrogant and wallowing in your moral superiority.
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You are the first person who has ever called me arrogant lol.
And I didn't wallow in my 'moral superiority' at all, I pointed out how I see some of the behavior here as disgusting and hoped some of the people here would come to reason, how is that anywhere close to wallowing in moral superiority.
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lol frits, the last thing to do if you want others to see your point of view without being seen as an asshole yourself is to insult them.
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oh come on now
I just frase shit harshly, that's my thing.
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Hey people enough... You guys are like SC2 followers and SC:BW followers... Doesn't seem to have compromise...
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On December 11 2008 06:32 Licmyobelisk wrote:
Hey people enough... You guys are like SC2 followers and SC:BW followers... Doesn't seem to have compromise...
Im sorry did you get lost or something? do you need directions to the blog section? youtube thread? Anything I can help you with?
And what the fuck, compromise? Do you think we're trying to close a fucking deal here or something? Yeah that should work out. Okay hamerd, if you admit to giving criminals rights, I will admit to the death penalty? That sound good? Is it a deal?
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Thanks for showing me the way though, what would we do without you.
GROUPHUG ! :-))))))))
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I hope they don't blame this on some kind of mental disorder and let her off with anything less than life in prison.
I read an article recently which proposed that as we begin to know more and more about the human brain, the more we'll see court cases in which defendants will try to get off easy with a psychological explanation of what drove them to commit the crime that they did. That doesn't, however, dissipate the blame, and this woman should still be punished.
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Clearly a Manic Depressive/ Bi Polar disorder.
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On December 10 2008 13:15 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 13:03 Motiva wrote:On December 10 2008 12:34 lesser_good wrote:On December 10 2008 07:40 Klive5ive wrote:
They should let the Mother kill herself, dragging her into prison for the rest of her life is just cruel.
What she did is inexcusable but I bet life for her was extremely hard. You would think the father and this friend would have some idea she was in distress. Imho the death penalty is pure bullshit. So basically a bastard could kill hundreds of people in nasty twisted ways and all he would get would be a few lame trials some grub and a nice and cozy death by lethal injection. Bastards like that deserve to rot away in prison forever. All alone with the thoughts of their twisted deeds. while i may be inclined to agree, i'm certainly not inclined to pay for their life in prison &_& Sick shit... sick world... this shit is getting so old first of all your parents are paying, not you, shut up second the death penalty costs way more than a life imprisonment
The lethal injection costs more. And maybe the electric chair. There are a lot of ways to execute someone very cheaply.
And I do pay for it either way, and I don't want to pay that much either way. They aren't worth the resources. People like this should not be "rehabilitated," because they had a choice, and they chose the wrong one. And I don't find any opposing argument saying that she had no choice (i.e. there is no such thing as free-will) to be very convincing (and I've read the thoughts of people who are probably much smarter than the people at TL, so there is no way anyone here can possibly convince me, either. That isn't intended as a knock on TLers, the people that wrote the stuff were probably smarter than me, too, but I disagree nonetheless. But I'm getting way off track, and making my parenthetical statement ridiculously long.).
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United States42695 Posts
What she did goes profoundly against instinct. No sane person could kill their children, it's an evolutionary thing. Just like sane people can't commit suicide. She's a danger to society but not fundamentally evil. Her action was fundamentally evil but did she really sit down and make a considered choice to kill all her children and then attempt suicide? I think not.
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Hey, at least she effectively erased her genes from the gene pool. Darwinism wins again.
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Such stuff always pisses me off... Poor poor children...
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EPT
