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Active: 3622 users

Gaming = Nobel?

Forum Index > General Forum
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jingXD
Profile Joined May 2007
United States283 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-10 18:24:20
May 10 2008 18:23 GMT
#1
Just saw this on digg/slashdot.
Article Link

+ Show Spoiler +
Computer Game's High Score Could Earn The Nobel Prize In Medicine

ScienceDaily (May 9, 2008) — Gamers have devoted countless years of collective brainpower to rescuing princesses or protecting the planet against alien invasions. This week researchers at the University of Washington will try to harness those finely honed skills to make medical discoveries, perhaps even finding a cure for HIV.

A new game, named Foldit, turns protein folding into a competitive sport. Introductory levels teach the rules, which are the same laws of physics by which protein strands curl and twist into three-dimensional shapes -- key for biological mysteries ranging from Alzheimer's to vaccines.

After about 20 minutes of training, people feel like they're playing a video game but are actually mouse-clicking in the name of medical science. The free program is at http://fold.it/.

The game was developed by doctoral student Seth Cooper and postdoctoral researcher Adrien Treuille, both in computer science and engineering, working with Zoran Popovic, a UW associate professor of computer science and engineering; David Baker, a UW professor of biochemistry and Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator; and David Salesin, a UW professor of computer science and engineering. Professional game designers provided advice during the game's creation.

"We're hopefully going to change the way science is done, and who it's done by," said Popovic, who presented the project today at the Games for Health meeting in Baltimore. "Our ultimate goal is to have ordinary people play the game and eventually be candidates for winning the Nobel Prize."

Proteins, of which there are more than 100,000 different kinds in the human body, form every cell, make up the immune system and set the speed of chemical reactions. We know many proteins' genetic sequence, but don't know how they fold up into complex shapes whose nooks and crannies play crucial biological roles.

Computer simulators calculate all possible protein shapes, but this is a mathematical problem so huge that all the computers in the world would take centuries to solve it. In 2005, Baker developed a project named Rosetta@home that taps into volunteers' computer time all around the world. But even 200,000 volunteers aren't enough.

"There are too many possibilities for the computer to go through every possible one," Baker said. "An approach like Rosetta@home does well on small proteins, but as the protein gets bigger and bigger it gets harder and harder, and the computers often fail.

"People, using their intuition, might be able to home in on the right answer much more quickly."

Rosetta@home and Foldit both use the Rosetta protein-folding software. Foldit is the first protein-folding project that asks volunteers for something other than unused processor cycles on their computers or Playstation machines. Foldit also differs from recent human-computer interactive games that use humans' ability to recognize images or interpret text. Instead, Foldit capitalizes on people's natural 3-D problem-solving skills.

The intuitive skills that make someone good at playing Foldit are not necessarily the ones that make a top biologist. Baker says his 13-year-old son is faster at folding proteins than he is. Others may be even faster.

"I imagine that there's a 12-year-old in Indonesia who can see all this in their head," Baker says.

Eventually, the researchers hope to advance science by discovering protein-folding prodigies who have natural abilities to see proteins in 3-D.

"Some people are just able to look at the game and in less than two minutes, get to the top score," said Popovic. "They can't even explain what they're doing, but somehow they're able to do it."

The game looks like a 21st-century version of Tetris, with multicolored geometric snakes filling the screen. A team that includes a half-dozen UW graduate and undergraduate students spent more than a year figuring out how to make the game both accurate and engaging. They faced some special challenges that commercial game developers don't encounter.

"We don't know what the best result is, so we can't help people or hint people toward that goal," Popovic explained. The team also couldn't arbitrarily decide to make one move worth 1,000 bonus points, since the score corresponds to the energy needed to hold the protein in that shape.

Almost 1,000 players have tested the system in recent weeks, playing informal challenges using proteins with known shapes. Starting this week, however, the developers will open the game to the public and offer proteins of unknown shapes. Also starting this week, Foldit gamers will face off against research groups around the world in a major protein-structure competition held every two years.

Beginning in the fall, Foldit problems will expand to involve creating new proteins that we might wish existed -- enzymes that could break up toxic waste, for example, or that would absorb carbon dioxide from the air. Computers alone cannot design a protein from scratch. The game lets the computer help out when it's a simple optimization problem -- the same way that computer solitaire sometimes moves the cards to clean up the table -- letting the player concentrate on interesting moves.

Eventually, the researchers hope to present a medical nemesis, such as HIV or malaria, and challenge players to devise a protein with just the right shape to lock into the virus and deactivate it. Winning protein designs will be synthesized in Baker's lab and tested in petri dishes. High-scoring players will be credited in scientific publications the way that top Rosetta@home contributors already are credited for their computer time.

"Long-term, I'm hoping that we can get a significant fraction of the world's population engaged in solving critical problems in world health, and doing it collaboratively and successfully through the game," Baker said. "We're trying to use the brain power of people all around the world to advance biomedical research."

Foldit includes elements of multiplayer games in which people can team up, chat with other players and create online profiles. Over time the researchers will analyze people's moves to see how the top players solve puzzles. This information will be fed back into the game's design so the game's tools and format can evolve.

The research is funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Microsoft Corp. and Adobe Systems Inc., and through fellowships at Nvidia Corp. and Intel Corp.
Adapted from materials provided by University of Washington.


Basically, someone at UW wrote the framework for a game where the rules are actual rules of physics governing protein folding. The player is given a real protein and is supposed to figure out how it would fold. If you end up solving one, you could get a share of the Nobel (supposedly), which iirc is a cool million and everlasting fame in the nerd community. http://fold.it for the download (the site is slow to load, probably suffering from the slashdot/digg effect).

I think it's a pretty interesting idea, especially given that the only hurdle right now is computational time and the human brain is supposed to run some of the best pattern-recognition heuristics. But, honestly, how long would you play this game?
zdd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
1463 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-10 18:27:51
May 10 2008 18:26 GMT
#2
I've played the game and I can say that it's pretty fun. It's like a puzzle game, basically you move around the protein parts, then shake the things and wiggle the backbone to get it to have a lower energy level (higher score) than before. Add to that the competitive aspect of it (scores are updated in real time on a scoreboard) and it becomes a really addicting game.
Right now they're only doing pre-solved proteins, but eventually they will put up the ones that scientists don't know the answer to, which would make you really help science by playing the game.
All you need in life is a strong will to succeed and unrelenting determination. If you meet these prerequisites, you can become anything you want with absolutely no luck, fortune or natural ability.
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20666 Posts
May 10 2008 18:32 GMT
#3
Let's make a Group. Team Liquid must win the internet [and cure cancer while we're at it]
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
May 10 2008 18:33 GMT
#4
hahaha yeah right. Protein folding is by far the toughest problem in computational biophysics. A lot of really smart people with very powerful computer systems have been working on it for a long time. I really doubt that it's going to be solved by a bunch of kids messing around on an internet game.
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2932 Posts
May 10 2008 18:39 GMT
#5
This is an awesome idea, I'm gonna try it out
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
nitram
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Canada5412 Posts
May 10 2008 18:39 GMT
#6
Alright, im up for the challenge :p
These sites might be of more use than a StarCraft site, where the majority of posters look on WCIII as the dense misformed fetus produced during Blizzards latest miscarrige.
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
May 10 2008 18:40 GMT
#7
Just because it's really obnoxiously hard to do with a powerful computer system doesn't mean that humans can't do it better, which can really be clearly seen in fields like pattern recognition.
But why?
frozenclaw
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Canada410 Posts
May 10 2008 18:41 GMT
#8
I'd actually try to contribute in the Team Liquid group if there ever was one.
xhuwin
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States476 Posts
May 10 2008 18:50 GMT
#9
Woah this is cool. I did protein architecture research last summer and it was pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing.
xyn
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2932 Posts
May 10 2008 18:56 GMT
#10
Hmm, someone make the teamliquid group :D, I'll definitely join.
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
Luddite
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2315 Posts
May 10 2008 18:56 GMT
#11
On May 11 2008 03:40 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Just because it's really obnoxiously hard to do with a powerful computer system doesn't mean that humans can't do it better, which can really be clearly seen in fields like pattern recognition.

uh humans have worked on it too. A lot. My professor described this problem to me this way.

Suppose that someone took a building and disassembled it, into just a big pile of wood, nails, and what not. Could you look at that pile of stuff and figure out what sort of building it made? Without even being allowed to experiment and build stuff with it? Probably not.
Can't believe I'm still here playing this same game
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
May 10 2008 18:58 GMT
#12
This is actually one of the most exiting distributed computing you can participate in. Being able to calculate how protein fold is huge. It's like the real 'language' of life.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-10 19:04:45
May 10 2008 19:01 GMT
#13
looks like the site couldn't handle the digg traffic


I want to play this but I can't seem to find a site to dl it. I don't want to have to use a torrent they go insanely slow here.
Cogito
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States453 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-05-10 19:10:29
May 10 2008 19:07 GMT
#14
Thanks for the post. I like the idea of anything that gets the public interested in contemporary scientific problems. Reminds me of SETI@Home.

edit - Site is definitely under heavy traffic load right now, will try later.
Jathin
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3505 Posts
May 10 2008 19:12 GMT
#15
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
May 10 2008 19:19 GMT
#16
Well there are billions of people on earth, I am sure there is plenty of latent geniuses just waiting to get interested in this.
Mynock
Profile Joined September 2002
4492 Posts
May 10 2008 19:56 GMT
#17
Yeah, if there's one thing gamers can beat, it's cancer. I mean, how hard can it be? As hard as woodman? As hard as Airman? No way!
Famehunter
Profile Joined August 2007
Canada586 Posts
May 10 2008 20:00 GMT
#18
This just sounds like they want volunteers to do all the work for free and if a solution is found , they ll make shit tons of monney. Even if they give a portion of the credit to the "talented" people able to solve protein paterns.

So for them its a win, win equation.

If you have time to waste ,and love playing that puzzle game, then by all means help them but I doubt your contribution will hardly have any impact. Its like looking for jesus amongst the living, the chosen one who can solve protein paterns with his amazing brain. You might as well go give your blood and save the life of dozens of people with a single donation.
Velox Versutus vigilans
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
7038 Posts
May 10 2008 20:00 GMT
#19
Just registered and installed it on my computer, will have a better look on it tomorrow as I have more time, sounds extremely interesting.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32280 Posts
May 10 2008 20:04 GMT
#20
On May 11 2008 03:32 Last Romantic wrote:
Let's make a Group. Team Liquid must win the internet [and cure cancer while we're at it]



hahha
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