On November 02 2026 05:25 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2026 04:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 02 2026 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:On November 02 2026 03:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 02 2026 03:13 maybenexttime wrote:On November 02 2026 02:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 02 2026 00:41 Simberto wrote:On November 02 2026 00:32 faTEmOosie wrote:On November 02 2026 00:30 Simberto wrote:On November 02 2026 00:24 faTEmOosie wrote:
I'm not smart enough to participate in these conversations aside from what I just said, I will also say I don't see any end to this but regime change. I have nothing but internet stranger intuition to back it up, I just couldn't see a war being told the way it is suddenly stopping. Look at Afghanistan, wasn't until the end of the USSR the old guard said "yeah, sorry about that... bad decision, sorry" which was years after withdrawal.
To say it's a war against the West rather than Ukraine, taking place in Ukraine? Again that's where I am not smart enough to say, but this to Russians has been framed as the survival of the RF against the big Western front. Afghanistan all over again.
If you're expecting the squeeze to make people reconsider their decisions, I am afraid these are not the peoples' decisions to make and they are well aware of this. The people always have the power in any given country. It is not easy, especially in an established dictatorial regime like Russia, but you don't have to accept how you are ruled. Also, it is not about the survival of Russia. You could leave Ukraine today, and nothing bad would happen to Russia. You could just not have invaded, and it would have been way better for you guys. The West was very happy to trade with you, buying oil and gas and giving you money to spend on whatever. Russia could have been rich and prosperous. You were in a position to become another Norway. But Russia decided that what it really really wanted was to conquer its neighbour, while letting all the oil and gas profits be stolen by oligarchs. Never said you were wrong, that's not how Russians see it. If people do not understand the Russian perspective, even if it is objectively wrong, the likelihood of a solution and mutual understanding is lower. To say this is all pointless thievery and sadistic war shit, negates the legitimate points that have been brought up throughout recent history. There are no legitimate points. You guys are the bad guys. + Show Spoiler +You may not see it like that, but that is the reality.
Would you have said in 1941 that it is really important that people understand the legitimate grievances that Germany had about all the Lebensraum in Eastern Europe being occupied by non-arians, and all the bad stuff Jews are doing?
All the "legitimate points" that you believe you have are fed to you by government propaganda. There are no points. You are invading your neighbour, killing lots of people in the process, for no gain whatsoever.
You are also not fighting Nato or the West. The West is sending tiny amounts of surplus equipment to your neighbour to help them defend (usually in the range of 0.1 to 0.5% of GDP per year), while you go basically all-in at 8% of GDP or whatever it currently is being invested into the military.
You are also somewhat stupid bad guys, because you could have done way better for everyone in your country without being bad guys. As i said, you could have been another Norway. Russia has the wealth of ressources necessary for that. Instead you are doing this pointless murderous shit. I don't think they see it that way. I don't think "Good guy vs Bad guy" is culturally really a narrative in Russia like it is in the west either (which I think is part of what they are getting at)?They see a genocidal expansionist state like Israel being protected by the West from international laws and sanctions, so they just reject the rationale for the West effectively making them suffer for their leaders doing what seems to them like something the West materially supports in the case of Israel. The pretty clear hypocrisy, means among the general public, Western actions against Russia are not viewed as principled justice, but rather as geopolitically motivated bullying They see it more like a family dispute where Western intervention is viewed much like an outsider taking sides in a bitter, internal family grievance (while the West have their own genocidal expansionism going on). All that is to say that the resentment is largely building toward the West rather than their government. Your statement couldn't be further from the truth. Good guys (Russia) vs. bad guys (the degenerate West, perfidious Albion, stupid Americans, expansionist NATO, and so on) is literally the core of their narrative for domestic purposes. They always claim to be the victims. All their imperialist wars are merely defensive, whether we're talking about the conquest of Siberia and Far East, or their unholy alliance with Hitler. As for the war affecting/not affecting the quality of life of Russians, we'll see if they say the same this winter. Ukraine is now in a position to retaliate for any attack on power plants/heating infrastructure. They just hit four refineries in the last three days. ;-) They certainly lean into a victim narrative of encirclement, but from what I understand, the "flawed protagonist" navigating a fundamentally tragic, corrupt world, is more reflective of their framing than "good guy vs bad guy" It's a subtle but important distinction when considering how Western nations inflicting suffering on Russian citizens by sanctioning their leaders is reconciled by the Russian population. No, you're just wrong. They quite clearly sweep all the atrocities they have committed under the rug. They even have a special name for the part of WW2 following the Nazi invasion of the USSR, and they pretend their alliance with the Nazis never happened. The West shows a lot more introspection and engages in far more self-criticism than Russia. It's not even close. There's no "flawed protagonist" crap on their part. You're just making it up. I don't know what you think you're disagreeing with? I'm not saying "Russia is a flawed protagonist" I'm saying seeing their country as a "flawed protagonist" and themselves as victims of circumstances is culturally more resonant in everyday Russian's minds. That the "Good guy vs Bad guy" framing doesn't match reality as they understand it. They see two imperfect "guys" in a might makes right competition. You have no idea what you're talking about. I stated very plainly what I disagree with in your post. The bolded part. You said that "Good guy vs Bad guy" is culturally not really a narrative in Russia, when in fact it is THE narrative in Russia. Do you know any Russian? You clearly had zero exposure to Russia's national narratives used for the domestic purposes. "Beacon of civilization civilizing the Asiatic barbarians", "champion of Christianity defending Europe from the Islamic onslaught", "heroes who saved the world from the Nazis", "bulwark of conservatism fighting against the LGBT degeneracy" - this is how Russia sees itself.
I get the impression you have no idea what I'm talking about.
The parallel that comes to my mind is that there's the propaganda that Trump puts out, the propaganda that the US government puts out (this is bipartisan), there's how everyday Americans actually reconcile/frame what the US does with their worldview, then there's an objective reality.
I'm talking about the part about how Russians (or Americans in this case) reconcile the objective reality with their worldview through preferred propaganda vectors.
|
EPT
