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On August 28 2026 04:59 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 04:30 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 03:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 02:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its like putting 5000 innocent people in a prison with 5 criminals and then complaining that you can't flatten it with bombs because the criminals are using the innocents as human shields. Then bombing the shit out of it anyway.
And then saying "Well we didn't FORCE those 5 criminals to commit their crimes" as an excuse for killing the 5000 innocent people. The October 7th attacks and the killing, raping, and kidnapping must be freebies, because war in Gaza against Hamas would be unconscionable with the dense urban environment and predictable levels of civilian casualties. Hamas holds the trump card. Why pretend otherwise? This is a full-throated endorsement of the Hamas strategy. A bunch of Jews will die, and a bunch of Jockmcplops will say the civilian costs of counterattacking Hamas mean your hands are tied. He’s right though. A bunch of Jews die, then a bunch more Palestinians die and then the cycle repeats itself. And the decision makers on both sides are aware and willing to pay that price as long as it helps them. Do you think Israel’s bombing or Hamas is going to work? I don’t. The leaders, including the ones outside of Gaza and Israel all should be held accountable. So much pointless suffering. Whether they worked is a different question than whether Israel bears responsibility for the population density of the Gaza Strip. I say that his logic demands October 7th be a freebie in terms of not begetting a war in Gaza. What other way to interpret "those 5 criminals to commit their crimes." Jockmcplop wants the worst of both worlds, and you might notice the construction.
On August 28 2026 05:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 00:05 dyhb wrote:
If we just pretend that Ukraine is a super densely populated urban battlefield like the Gaza Strip, I'm sure all kinds of statistics are shocking. And also pretend that Zelensky deliberately conceals his military among and beneath civilian infrastructure, and threatens said human shields with gunfire should they try to leave.
But keep displaying the foolishness for all to see. Any opinion on why the vast majority of genocide scholars and a bunch of human rights organizations and United Nations representatives agree with Jankisa and not you? They've all weighed in on the Ukraine example and the similarities between Ukraine and Gaza?
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On August 28 2026 08:56 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 04:59 Billyboy wrote:On August 28 2026 04:30 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 03:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 02:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its like putting 5000 innocent people in a prison with 5 criminals and then complaining that you can't flatten it with bombs because the criminals are using the innocents as human shields. Then bombing the shit out of it anyway.
And then saying "Well we didn't FORCE those 5 criminals to commit their crimes" as an excuse for killing the 5000 innocent people. The October 7th attacks and the killing, raping, and kidnapping must be freebies, because war in Gaza against Hamas would be unconscionable with the dense urban environment and predictable levels of civilian casualties. Hamas holds the trump card. Why pretend otherwise? This is a full-throated endorsement of the Hamas strategy. A bunch of Jews will die, and a bunch of Jockmcplops will say the civilian costs of counterattacking Hamas mean your hands are tied. He’s right though. A bunch of Jews die, then a bunch more Palestinians die and then the cycle repeats itself. And the decision makers on both sides are aware and willing to pay that price as long as it helps them. Do you think Israel’s bombing or Hamas is going to work? I don’t. The leaders, including the ones outside of Gaza and Israel all should be held accountable. So much pointless suffering. Whether they worked is a different question than whether Israel bears responsibility for the population density of the Gaza Strip. I say that his logic demands October 7th be a freebie in terms of not begetting a war in Gaza. What other way to interpret "those 5 criminals to commit their crimes." Jockmcplop wants the worst of both worlds, and you might notice the construction.
The way to interpret it is that collective punishment is morally wrong. The deliberate slaughter of innocents in revenge for crimes of the guilty. There is no case to be made for it.
You call it a 'freebie' but that isn't the point at all. The punishment is largely falling on the wrong people. YOu yourself say that Hamas don't care about the civilian population around them. So Israel isn't punishing Hamas by slaughtering kids, raping innocent prisoners etc.
Its just vengefully attempting to satisfy the ravenous, unquenchable bloodlust of its insane death cult of a government and its supporters.
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On August 28 2026 09:16 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 08:56 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 04:59 Billyboy wrote:On August 28 2026 04:30 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 03:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 02:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its like putting 5000 innocent people in a prison with 5 criminals and then complaining that you can't flatten it with bombs because the criminals are using the innocents as human shields. Then bombing the shit out of it anyway.
And then saying "Well we didn't FORCE those 5 criminals to commit their crimes" as an excuse for killing the 5000 innocent people. The October 7th attacks and the killing, raping, and kidnapping must be freebies, because war in Gaza against Hamas would be unconscionable with the dense urban environment and predictable levels of civilian casualties. Hamas holds the trump card. Why pretend otherwise? This is a full-throated endorsement of the Hamas strategy. A bunch of Jews will die, and a bunch of Jockmcplops will say the civilian costs of counterattacking Hamas mean your hands are tied. He’s right though. A bunch of Jews die, then a bunch more Palestinians die and then the cycle repeats itself. And the decision makers on both sides are aware and willing to pay that price as long as it helps them. Do you think Israel’s bombing or Hamas is going to work? I don’t. The leaders, including the ones outside of Gaza and Israel all should be held accountable. So much pointless suffering. Whether they worked is a different question than whether Israel bears responsibility for the population density of the Gaza Strip. I say that his logic demands October 7th be a freebie in terms of not begetting a war in Gaza. What other way to interpret "those 5 criminals to commit their crimes." Jockmcplop wants the worst of both worlds, and you might notice the construction. The way to interpret it is that collective punishment is morally wrong. The deliberate slaughter of innocents in revenge for crimes of the guilty. There is no case to be made for it. I don't think you can even have a real discussion of war if strikes are morally illegitimate in an urban environment. You're just saying Hamas can rape, murder, and kidnap 1400+, and Israel is powerless to respond with war in Gaza.
That's what the "5 criminals in 5000" tripe gets at.
But I appreciate that everybody dropped Ukraine the minute there was any pushback.
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I didn’t read, they are powerless to respond. And there is a big difference between the pager attack and bombing some low level fighters camped out under a day care. Expecting zero civilians, which would be ideal, and the number that have. Not all the attacks have been war crimes but there has also been war crimes.
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On August 28 2026 09:28 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 09:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 08:56 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 04:59 Billyboy wrote:On August 28 2026 04:30 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 03:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 02:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its like putting 5000 innocent people in a prison with 5 criminals and then complaining that you can't flatten it with bombs because the criminals are using the innocents as human shields. Then bombing the shit out of it anyway.
And then saying "Well we didn't FORCE those 5 criminals to commit their crimes" as an excuse for killing the 5000 innocent people. The October 7th attacks and the killing, raping, and kidnapping must be freebies, because war in Gaza against Hamas would be unconscionable with the dense urban environment and predictable levels of civilian casualties. Hamas holds the trump card. Why pretend otherwise? This is a full-throated endorsement of the Hamas strategy. A bunch of Jews will die, and a bunch of Jockmcplops will say the civilian costs of counterattacking Hamas mean your hands are tied. He’s right though. A bunch of Jews die, then a bunch more Palestinians die and then the cycle repeats itself. And the decision makers on both sides are aware and willing to pay that price as long as it helps them. Do you think Israel’s bombing or Hamas is going to work? I don’t. The leaders, including the ones outside of Gaza and Israel all should be held accountable. So much pointless suffering. Whether they worked is a different question than whether Israel bears responsibility for the population density of the Gaza Strip. I say that his logic demands October 7th be a freebie in terms of not begetting a war in Gaza. What other way to interpret "those 5 criminals to commit their crimes." Jockmcplop wants the worst of both worlds, and you might notice the construction. The way to interpret it is that collective punishment is morally wrong. The deliberate slaughter of innocents in revenge for crimes of the guilty. There is no case to be made for it. I don't think you can even have a real discussion of war if strikes are morally illegitimate in an urban environment. You're just saying Hamas can rape, murder, and kidnap 1400+, and Israel is powerless to respond with war in Gaza. That's what the "5 criminals in 5000" tripe gets at. But I appreciate that everybody dropped Ukraine the minute there was any pushback.
I never once mentioned Ukraine. I joined the conversation when you used the human shield argument.
You're just saying Hamas can rape, murder, and kidnap 1400+, and Israel is powerless to respond with war in Gaza.
No, I'm not, and I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. If you're going to argue at least argue against the actual point I'm making.
Its about how the war in Gaza is conducted, how long it lasted, what the objectives were etc.
Using mass casualty weapons to absolutely destroy entire towns and neighbourhoods for years with the objective of exterminating the local population and radicalising the rest is blatantly the wrong way to conduct the war. The objective of war should not be further perpetual war.
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On August 28 2026 08:56 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 05:08 Nebuchad wrote:On August 28 2026 00:05 dyhb wrote:
If we just pretend that Ukraine is a super densely populated urban battlefield like the Gaza Strip, I'm sure all kinds of statistics are shocking. And also pretend that Zelensky deliberately conceals his military among and beneath civilian infrastructure, and threatens said human shields with gunfire should they try to leave.
But keep displaying the foolishness for all to see. Any opinion on why the vast majority of genocide scholars and a bunch of human rights organizations and United Nations representatives agree with Jankisa and not you? They've all weighed in on the Ukraine example and the similarities between Ukraine and Gaza?
I see, my apologies. So, outside of this little quibble that you have with the analogy that Jankisa chose, you agree with him and the experts? I did not know that. It's a bit weird given how you're now talking about it with Jock, but I am glad to learn new things about you.
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On August 28 2026 09:35 Jockmcplop wrote:
Using mass casualty weapons to absolutely destroy entire towns and neighbourhoods for years with the objective of exterminating the local population and radicalising the rest is blatantly the wrong way to conduct the war. The objective of war should not be further perpetual war.
look at Israel's meandering borders since the day it was concieved. Look at every new iteration of Israel's borders since 1940-whatever.... Israel is made for conflict ... by design. Israel has been fighting virtually since day 1.
And, the thing is that is why Israel exists. Israel's purpose is to create more customers and more demand for expensive military hardware. it is working. Even factoring in inflation, the USA next year will spend more money on military that it did during the peak of WW2. Casualties are no where near as high as they were during WW2. The elite puppet masters who tell US presidents and other world leaders what to do are pretty happy with the result. Sky high military spending... and low casualties. on a per-capita basis, today's conflict mortality is dramatically lower than during the World Wars and many other periods of the 20th century.
Humans will always want military and war. So low casualties is the best possible outcome. Zero military conflict and zero casualties are only a dream.
So, relative to other eras in human history, we're doing ok. Relative to some dream world where no one ever dies during military conflict.. well the sky is falling.
Source of "Israel is always fighting"
+ Show Spoiler +Israel was founded in 1948 and immediately went to war. Since then there has been an unusually persistent sequence of wars, insurgencies, uprisings, terrorist attacks, occupations, border clashes and military operations.
A rough timeline explains why it feels continuous:
1948–49: Arab-Israeli War immediately after independence.
1956: Suez War against Egypt.
1967: Six-Day War against Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
1967–70: War of Attrition, principally with Egypt.
1973: Yom Kippur War against Egypt and Syria.
1982: Lebanon War.
1987–93: First Palestinian Intifada.
2000–05: Second Intifada.
2006: Lebanon War against Hezbollah.
2008 onward: repeated major rounds of warfare with Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza.
2023 onward: October 7 attack and Gaza war, followed by major fighting involving Hezbollah/Lebanon, Iran and other regional actors
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On August 28 2026 09:35 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2026 09:28 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 09:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 08:56 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 04:59 Billyboy wrote:On August 28 2026 04:30 dyhb wrote:On August 28 2026 03:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2026 02:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
Its like putting 5000 innocent people in a prison with 5 criminals and then complaining that you can't flatten it with bombs because the criminals are using the innocents as human shields. Then bombing the shit out of it anyway.
And then saying "Well we didn't FORCE those 5 criminals to commit their crimes" as an excuse for killing the 5000 innocent people. The October 7th attacks and the killing, raping, and kidnapping must be freebies, because war in Gaza against Hamas would be unconscionable with the dense urban environment and predictable levels of civilian casualties. Hamas holds the trump card. Why pretend otherwise? This is a full-throated endorsement of the Hamas strategy. A bunch of Jews will die, and a bunch of Jockmcplops will say the civilian costs of counterattacking Hamas mean your hands are tied. He’s right though. A bunch of Jews die, then a bunch more Palestinians die and then the cycle repeats itself. And the decision makers on both sides are aware and willing to pay that price as long as it helps them. Do you think Israel’s bombing or Hamas is going to work? I don’t. The leaders, including the ones outside of Gaza and Israel all should be held accountable. So much pointless suffering. Whether they worked is a different question than whether Israel bears responsibility for the population density of the Gaza Strip. I say that his logic demands October 7th be a freebie in terms of not begetting a war in Gaza. What other way to interpret "those 5 criminals to commit their crimes." Jockmcplop wants the worst of both worlds, and you might notice the construction. The way to interpret it is that collective punishment is morally wrong. The deliberate slaughter of innocents in revenge for crimes of the guilty. There is no case to be made for it. I don't think you can even have a real discussion of war if strikes are morally illegitimate in an urban environment. You're just saying Hamas can rape, murder, and kidnap 1400+, and Israel is powerless to respond with war in Gaza. That's what the "5 criminals in 5000" tripe gets at. But I appreciate that everybody dropped Ukraine the minute there was any pushback. I never once mentioned Ukraine. I joined the conversation when you used the human shield argument. The author wrote it and immediately fled, and nobody joined him on it.
Show nested quote +
You're just saying Hamas can rape, murder, and kidnap 1400+, and Israel is powerless to respond with war in Gaza.
No, I'm not, and I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. If you're going to argue at least argue against the actual point I'm making.
Because you're smart enough to know exactly what you're doing.
Its about how the war in Gaza is conducted, how long it lasted, what the objectives were etc.
Using mass casualty weapons to absolutely destroy entire towns and neighbourhoods for years with the objective of exterminating the local population and radicalising the rest is blatantly the wrong way to conduct the war. The objective of war should not be further perpetual war.
Suffice it to say that if I thought you were right in the premises I would agree that the conclusions follow. But I do believe you're very far off on every single word here.
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EPT
