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2020 US Election - Page 175

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Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
November 05 2020 22:52 GMT
#3481
The US didn't even use our model when we made a different country use a form of government we wanted them to via direct invasion (Iraq).
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27471 Posts
November 05 2020 22:53 GMT
#3482
On November 06 2020 07:46 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:22 ChristianS wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:33 Wegandi wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:29 ChristianS wrote:
IIRC Republicans currently have like a ~+8 advantage in the Senate relative to the popular vote (that is, if they lost every election by 8 points in the popular vote, they’d keep 50 senators on average). Adding PR and DC would bring that to ~+4. “That would give Dems too much advantage” is a pretty weak argument against, and basically every argument against using the popular vote (e.g. ensuring less populous groups’ interests are still represented) would cut in favor of representing the people of DC and PR, too. Of course, the reason it doesn’t happen is because Republicans have a lot of power, and appear not to have a single principle they prioritize more highly than obtaining more power.

Designing the whole system around incentivizing politicians to do whatever it takes to win elections has really negative consequences in situations where those same politicians get to make decisions about the electoral machinery. It’s not obvious how to solve that problem democratically, but gerrymandering, voter suppression, and Electoral College stuff are all victims of that problem (and all seem to be getting worse as time goes on). A few years ago people were optimistic about a judicial branch solution to the gerrymandering issue, but I assume everyone’s given up on that.


The political unit and polity of this country is not based on individual persons. Its based off the 50 states. It has been since our inception (which preceded both parties). Using the popular vote is meaningless when talking about the power dynamics of our institutions (do you care about those now or do you want to alter and abolish still?).

I’ll be honest, I usually regret engaging with you in politics threads. If your arguments were at least incisive and well-considered, maybe it’d be easier to tolerate the aggressive-bordering-on-ad hominem argumentation, but you come so half-cocked it’s hard to see the purpose in continuing.

Here, for instance. You’re pre-assuming “we are a nation of 50 states” as the desired circumstance in a discussion about whether to add more states. We weren’t 50 states at our inception, of course, but aside from the factual inaccuracy you don’t even bother arguing why that’s a good thing. If you had, we could discuss the merits of those arguments and how they apply to the question at hand. Then you throw in the semi-nonsensical jab implying I previously didn’t care about our institutions, or that I want to alter or abolish them, which maybe doesn’t merit response but here’s one anyway: yes, I care about our institutions, which is why I’m making arguments about how best to improve them. I’m not advocating abolishing anything, and everyone has alterations they’d like to make. That’s politics. As a libertarian I bet you have alterations you’d like to make as well.

One common argument in favor of state-based institutions rather than national ones (I can’t respond to your argument, since you didn’t supply one) is that we’re not one monolithic mass of humans, we’re a bunch of smaller communities, each with our own cultures, values, economies, etc. So we extend the rights and privileges of statehood, including institutional power over national decision-making, to each one.

It still might seem wild to weight communities in WY 70x greater than communities in CA for national decision-making, but let’s accept the premise anyway. There’s two other communities we’re not extending those privileges to, and they’re both quite a bit bigger than WY. Why? The only argument against you’ve given is that it would hurt Republicans, but there’s nothing about Republicans’ current position that’s fundamentally fairer than the hypothetical alternative. Their voters’ voices will still be weighted more heavily than everyone else.


With the way things are going the minority party will have no standing at the national level. All the levers of action for the minority party to use are getting either eroded or abolished, so it does matter if whoever that party be has the competitive ability to pursue that position of power while representing their constituents (hence the well just be more like the other party to try and nudge into their advantage isn't persuasive; the parties can do that now if they wanted). Since admission of states is a political issue and not a moral one (you don't have to make DC a state - thats not the only solution for representation, but we never hear about any other alternatives from the parties who when making it a state would be the sole beneficiery), it gets a political answer.

My point about the states (the # is irrelevant in this instance) is that youre pointing to individual votes leading into national popular votes to measure in your comparison of what "should be", but our institutions are republican and based on collections of people. Power devolved to the states, Senate based on the states, etc. You cannot dismiss how our power structures are set up. If you gave Dems auto 4 Senators right now you'd put the GOP into a near permanent minority status. Thats untenable politically. If you put yourself in their shoes what would be your reaction?

Why is that a bad thing?

If markets self-correct and resolve a whole slew of problems in all domains why would this not apply to the two political parties?

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11567 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-11-05 22:55:42
November 05 2020 22:53 GMT
#3483
On November 06 2020 07:46 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:22 ChristianS wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:33 Wegandi wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:29 ChristianS wrote:
IIRC Republicans currently have like a ~+8 advantage in the Senate relative to the popular vote (that is, if they lost every election by 8 points in the popular vote, they’d keep 50 senators on average). Adding PR and DC would bring that to ~+4. “That would give Dems too much advantage” is a pretty weak argument against, and basically every argument against using the popular vote (e.g. ensuring less populous groups’ interests are still represented) would cut in favor of representing the people of DC and PR, too. Of course, the reason it doesn’t happen is because Republicans have a lot of power, and appear not to have a single principle they prioritize more highly than obtaining more power.

Designing the whole system around incentivizing politicians to do whatever it takes to win elections has really negative consequences in situations where those same politicians get to make decisions about the electoral machinery. It’s not obvious how to solve that problem democratically, but gerrymandering, voter suppression, and Electoral College stuff are all victims of that problem (and all seem to be getting worse as time goes on). A few years ago people were optimistic about a judicial branch solution to the gerrymandering issue, but I assume everyone’s given up on that.


The political unit and polity of this country is not based on individual persons. Its based off the 50 states. It has been since our inception (which preceded both parties). Using the popular vote is meaningless when talking about the power dynamics of our institutions (do you care about those now or do you want to alter and abolish still?).

I’ll be honest, I usually regret engaging with you in politics threads. If your arguments were at least incisive and well-considered, maybe it’d be easier to tolerate the aggressive-bordering-on-ad hominem argumentation, but you come so half-cocked it’s hard to see the purpose in continuing.

Here, for instance. You’re pre-assuming “we are a nation of 50 states” as the desired circumstance in a discussion about whether to add more states. We weren’t 50 states at our inception, of course, but aside from the factual inaccuracy you don’t even bother arguing why that’s a good thing. If you had, we could discuss the merits of those arguments and how they apply to the question at hand. Then you throw in the semi-nonsensical jab implying I previously didn’t care about our institutions, or that I want to alter or abolish them, which maybe doesn’t merit response but here’s one anyway: yes, I care about our institutions, which is why I’m making arguments about how best to improve them. I’m not advocating abolishing anything, and everyone has alterations they’d like to make. That’s politics. As a libertarian I bet you have alterations you’d like to make as well.

One common argument in favor of state-based institutions rather than national ones (I can’t respond to your argument, since you didn’t supply one) is that we’re not one monolithic mass of humans, we’re a bunch of smaller communities, each with our own cultures, values, economies, etc. So we extend the rights and privileges of statehood, including institutional power over national decision-making, to each one.

It still might seem wild to weight communities in WY 70x greater than communities in CA for national decision-making, but let’s accept the premise anyway. There’s two other communities we’re not extending those privileges to, and they’re both quite a bit bigger than WY. Why? The only argument against you’ve given is that it would hurt Republicans, but there’s nothing about Republicans’ current position that’s fundamentally fairer than the hypothetical alternative. Their voters’ voices will still be weighted more heavily than everyone else.


With the way things are going the minority party will have no standing at the national level. All the levers of action for the minority party to use are getting either eroded or abolished, so it does matter if whoever that party be has the competitive ability to pursue that position of power while representing their constituents (hence the well just be more like the other party to try and nudge into their advantage isn't persuasive; the parties can do that now if they wanted). Since admission of states is a political issue and not a moral one (you don't have to make DC a state - thats not the only solution for representation, but we never hear about any other alternatives from the parties who when making it a state would be the sole beneficiery), it gets a political answer.

My point about the states (the # is irrelevant in this instance) is that youre pointing to individual votes leading into national popular votes to measure in your comparison of what "should be", but our institutions are republican and based on collections of people. Power devolved to the states, Senate based on the states, etc. You cannot dismiss how our power structures are set up. If you gave Dems auto 4 Senators right now you'd put the GOP into a near permanent minority status. Thats untenable politically. If you put yourself in their shoes what would be your reaction?


Your arguments seem to imply some semblance of permanence in the disposition of political parties, and I think that is your main problem. The parties themselves are constantly under different societal pressures to change and adapt to differing situations. The Republican party and Democratic parties of today are very different from what they were even 15 years ago.

You mistake the existence of these political parties for evidence of some kind of intrinsic 'essential nature' and their continued vitality and viability, which has not been the case in American history.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 05 2020 22:53 GMT
#3484
Trump to speak @ 630 ET.



I don't expect he will concede.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-11-05 22:55:56
November 05 2020 22:54 GMT
#3485
Perdue in GA fell to 49.9% which is enough to force a special election if sustained
hell yea
© Current year.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10588 Posts
November 05 2020 22:54 GMT
#3486
If you gave Dems auto 4 Senators right now you'd put the GOP into a near permanent minority status. Thats untenable politically. If you put yourself in their shoes what would be your reaction?


idk... how about like... making your platform better and more likable to the voters? You ever consider that? You seem to be under this impression that voters will only ever vote for one party, when it has been shown time after time that independents are what dictate these swing state elections.

Total number of states that have flipped hands since 2000: Wisconsin, Michigan, PA, ME-2, NE-2, Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, New Hampshire, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada. That's a total of 13 states and 2 districts.

Go back another 8 years for Bill Clinton's elections and that number increases, adding states like: Arizona, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, Georgia, Montana. (9 more states)

So in the last 30 years since Bill Clinton took office, we have almost half of the states that have changed hands in the past 30 years.

This line of reasoning is so unbelievably absurd.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
November 05 2020 22:55 GMT
#3487
Better pray that Democrats rally their ground game for the special election, every Senate seat is going to be extremely precious.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10588 Posts
November 05 2020 22:56 GMT
#3488
PA UPDATE:

Not sure where the NYT updated but the count is now down to 80k separating the two candidates.

Scratch that, looks like it was Lehigh, that was lean Trump and now flipped to Lean Biden. Clinton won the county by 4.7 points, Biden now leads by 3 points with 86% reporting. Expect the ballots to continue to favor Biden.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-11-05 22:57:28
November 05 2020 22:57 GMT
#3489
Senator of PA thinks there will be a recount no matter what. I am starting to concede myself to the idea that the final result with both parties agreeing on it will take weeks from here.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44401 Posts
November 05 2020 22:57 GMT
#3490
On November 06 2020 07:38 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:03 plated.rawr wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
[image loading]


Penis or sideways empire state building?

Are you guys even american?? This looks like a 100% genuine freedom missile, probably fired from an all-american Justice Carrier.

I mean you are right, but those are designed to look like penis's

Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:07 Wegandi wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:56 KlaCkoN wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:35 Wegandi wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:32 Broetchenholer wrote:
The reasoning against a representation of million of Americans is from the completely wrong point of view. It's not the voting populace that needs to adopt to the political parties, it's the parties needing to adopt to to the voting populace. It's exactly the same mindset that ends with voter disenfranchisement because politiciansthink it's their right to only represent the people they care about. If the only way the GOP can cling to power is to hold onto the abitrary ruling that 52 GOP senators represent only 153 million americans and no more can ever be included, why did the US ever create more states, clearly, at some point before, new states would have meant a shift in political power somewhere else.
Also, what declaration of political bankruptcy is it to say, the GOP would never win DC or PR?


You realize we had a civil war in large part to the Missouri Compromise which ya know...was about adding new states. Foreigners ignorant of US history shouldnt be so boisterous on this topic.

PS GOP would have as much chance of winning DC as they would if Cuba, NK, or Venezuela were added as a state (DC literally votes like 92-94% Democrat). PR is more like Wyoming levels of partisanship than DC (70% rather than 95%).

Are you implying that modern day republicans would be willing to start a second civil war over the right to deny political representation to non-white people? I mean you might be right but that sounds like a strawman from an MSNBC fever dream.

It's absolutely insane more than a century after the civil war and 50 years after Jim Crow people in DC, PR, Guam and the American Virgin island still dont have the right to vote. Event the Brittish Empire was dismantled in the 60s ffs.


Lol. Im talking about the balance of political power and youre here implying bullshit. It could be fucking Canada or Norway and the GOP would fight it because again....its about ensuring one party rule or maintaining competitive balance.



Holy shit competitive balance. For the last while I have thought Americans treat their politics way to much likes sports and support their "team" too much.

BUT FOR FUCK SAKES POLITICS IS NOT SPORTS. The goal of democracy is to have free and fair representation for all people. If way more people want what the Dems are selling, then it is up to the Reps to change what they are selling to attract more people.

How does a libertarian basically think the Reps need vote subsidies so they have a equal chance to win? This logic is fucked up on every level, it is against democracy but it is also against what your supposed core believes are.


Your argument basically boils down to it is a bad idea because it bad for the Reps chances of winning the next election. WOW. Time to stop calling yourself a libertarian and start calling yourself a Republican, probably want a tattoo as well because all that seems to matter to you is that they win, not why, or if they should.

Vote subsidies to prop up unpopular policies is the exact right way to describe what is being advocated for here.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27471 Posts
November 05 2020 22:57 GMT
#3491
I’m massively impressed that Flash got his post count up from 1337 to nearly but not quite over 9000 in like 3 days
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10588 Posts
November 05 2020 22:59 GMT
#3492
https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1324486020067397639?s=20

https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1324486342873669638?s=20

Cumberland finished voting, Biden made a big 7 point gain in that district compared to 2016, where Trump won by 18 points over Clinton. Trump final tally only up 11 points. That's been the story for PA.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
November 05 2020 22:59 GMT
#3493
On November 06 2020 07:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Trump to speak @ 630 ET.

https://twitter.com/Kevinliptakcnn/status/1324483958759804928

I don't expect he will concede.


How many hours from now is that? (for us Europeans)
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 05 2020 23:00 GMT
#3494
On November 06 2020 07:59 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Trump to speak @ 630 ET.

https://twitter.com/Kevinliptakcnn/status/1324483958759804928

I don't expect he will concede.


How many hours from now is that? (for us Europeans)


30 minutes.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44401 Posts
November 05 2020 23:00 GMT
#3495
On November 06 2020 07:59 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Trump to speak @ 630 ET.

https://twitter.com/Kevinliptakcnn/status/1324483958759804928

I don't expect he will concede.


How many hours from now is that? (for us Europeans)

0.5
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
November 05 2020 23:00 GMT
#3496
On November 06 2020 07:46 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:22 ChristianS wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:33 Wegandi wrote:
On November 06 2020 06:29 ChristianS wrote:
IIRC Republicans currently have like a ~+8 advantage in the Senate relative to the popular vote (that is, if they lost every election by 8 points in the popular vote, they’d keep 50 senators on average). Adding PR and DC would bring that to ~+4. “That would give Dems too much advantage” is a pretty weak argument against, and basically every argument against using the popular vote (e.g. ensuring less populous groups’ interests are still represented) would cut in favor of representing the people of DC and PR, too. Of course, the reason it doesn’t happen is because Republicans have a lot of power, and appear not to have a single principle they prioritize more highly than obtaining more power.

Designing the whole system around incentivizing politicians to do whatever it takes to win elections has really negative consequences in situations where those same politicians get to make decisions about the electoral machinery. It’s not obvious how to solve that problem democratically, but gerrymandering, voter suppression, and Electoral College stuff are all victims of that problem (and all seem to be getting worse as time goes on). A few years ago people were optimistic about a judicial branch solution to the gerrymandering issue, but I assume everyone’s given up on that.


The political unit and polity of this country is not based on individual persons. Its based off the 50 states. It has been since our inception (which preceded both parties). Using the popular vote is meaningless when talking about the power dynamics of our institutions (do you care about those now or do you want to alter and abolish still?).

I’ll be honest, I usually regret engaging with you in politics threads. If your arguments were at least incisive and well-considered, maybe it’d be easier to tolerate the aggressive-bordering-on-ad hominem argumentation, but you come so half-cocked it’s hard to see the purpose in continuing.

Here, for instance. You’re pre-assuming “we are a nation of 50 states” as the desired circumstance in a discussion about whether to add more states. We weren’t 50 states at our inception, of course, but aside from the factual inaccuracy you don’t even bother arguing why that’s a good thing. If you had, we could discuss the merits of those arguments and how they apply to the question at hand. Then you throw in the semi-nonsensical jab implying I previously didn’t care about our institutions, or that I want to alter or abolish them, which maybe doesn’t merit response but here’s one anyway: yes, I care about our institutions, which is why I’m making arguments about how best to improve them. I’m not advocating abolishing anything, and everyone has alterations they’d like to make. That’s politics. As a libertarian I bet you have alterations you’d like to make as well.

One common argument in favor of state-based institutions rather than national ones (I can’t respond to your argument, since you didn’t supply one) is that we’re not one monolithic mass of humans, we’re a bunch of smaller communities, each with our own cultures, values, economies, etc. So we extend the rights and privileges of statehood, including institutional power over national decision-making, to each one.

It still might seem wild to weight communities in WY 70x greater than communities in CA for national decision-making, but let’s accept the premise anyway. There’s two other communities we’re not extending those privileges to, and they’re both quite a bit bigger than WY. Why? The only argument against you’ve given is that it would hurt Republicans, but there’s nothing about Republicans’ current position that’s fundamentally fairer than the hypothetical alternative. Their voters’ voices will still be weighted more heavily than everyone else.


With the way things are going the minority party will have no standing at the national level. All the levers of action for the minority party to use are getting either eroded or abolished, so it does matter if whoever that party be has the competitive ability to pursue that position of power while representing their constituents (hence the well just be more like the other party to try and nudge into their advantage isn't persuasive; the parties can do that now if they wanted). Since admission of states is a political issue and not a moral one (you don't have to make DC a state - thats not the only solution for representation, but we never hear about any other alternatives from the parties who when making it a state would be the sole beneficiery), it gets a political answer.

My point about the states (the # is irrelevant in this instance) is that youre pointing to individual votes leading into national popular votes to measure in your comparison of what "should be", but our institutions are republican and based on collections of people. Power devolved to the states, Senate based on the states, etc. You cannot dismiss how our power structures are set up. If you gave Dems auto 4 Senators right now you'd put the GOP into a near permanent minority status. Thats untenable politically. If you put yourself in their shoes what would be your reaction?

So that minority party, even if they are becoming even more the minority with demographic change etc, should continue to hold forever the same level of power ? Don't you then believe that there might be some changes that could be made to... the constitution, since that constitution is old and doesn't necessarily reflect the country of today ?

For example... allowing for a multi-party system and coalitions to form a government instead of winner-takes-all ?

No, your take is to disenfranchise the majority (or to never grant rights to territories that have no say in the laws they are governed by, even worse) to keep the minority with a relevant amount of power. That's... convoluted. You are willing to live but not die by the constitution, if it doesn't grant the power you want from it.

Though your own argument about Alaska and Hawaii was moot since they changed allegiances throughout the time. Who says PR (well, for DC ok...) would not either ? Things change, the country changes, the party change to reflect the electorate if they can't have power due to that shitty two party system. It's not an excuse to keep people out of it to try and freeze for eternity a current state of affairs because you're afraid of what come next.
NoiR
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10588 Posts
November 05 2020 23:00 GMT
#3497
On November 06 2020 07:57 WombaT wrote:
I’m massively impressed that Flash got his post count up from 1337 to nearly but not quite over 9000 in like 3 days

I will count on you to make the DBZ meme for when my post count surpasses the holy 9000 number. Also I was always at like 8500 until I joined the political discussion thread. It's been bad for my productivity.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
November 05 2020 23:01 GMT
#3498
On November 06 2020 07:57 WombaT wrote:
I’m massively impressed that Flash got his post count up from 1337 to nearly but not quite over 9000 in like 3 days

He does tend to spam a lot, you see... :p
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32755 Posts
November 05 2020 23:01 GMT
#3499
On November 06 2020 07:55 Zambrah wrote:
Better pray that Democrats rally their ground game for the special election, every Senate seat is going to be extremely precious.

Two big questions in my mind regarding the special elections are.

1) How will the lack of Trump on the ballot affect the races?
2) Can Democrats assemble enough enthusiasm and converted moderates to vote for one or two Democratic senators? Democrats tend to struggle to turnout in these situations I've read, meaning both likely both go to the GOP. But the prospect of an additional two senators could be drastic in the make-up of the Senate, and Democrats can't afford to let this slip.

They better get Abrams on the ground ASAP to start establishing more ground game in Georgia if they want a hope of winning even one.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9332 Posts
November 05 2020 23:01 GMT
#3500
On November 06 2020 07:59 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2020 07:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Trump to speak @ 630 ET.

https://twitter.com/Kevinliptakcnn/status/1324483958759804928

I don't expect he will concede.


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