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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Northern Ireland27070 Posts
On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: Show nested quote +On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." That also you but from now closed topic so cant quote properly: "His first amendment right to freedom of speech was obviously not violated just because he got assaulted by a random guy. Congress/ the federal government isn't part of the assault scenario. He got assaulted and what the assaulter did is illegal; if he were found, he'd be arrested. And he should be. But as far as whether or not people agree morally with punching a Nazi in the mouth... well, let's just say that both Captain America and Indiana Jones did it too, and surely people shouldn't be surprised that he was punched. I'd rather have a dialogue with the guy than punch him, but not everyone can control their anger against incendiary, toxic people. Also, his hate wasn't directed at me, so it's harder for me to relate to the kind of anger felt by those who are targeted, systemically oppressed, and constantly viewed as inferior." Dont take me wrong, it is just that for some it may seem that first you arguing that it is good to punch a "some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit" , or taking "proactive stance" if you prefer to phrase it that way, and then encouraged people to call republicans (which I believe is 50+kk people in US) racists and fascists, and make sure to mix it up with other stuff, to make it look okay. Show nested quote +On March 29 2026 00:35 WombaT wrote:On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
It is good that you disagreeing, because it opens discussion. Now I'll try to explain where you got it wrong. Which is back to what freedom of speech means. lets go with your analogy to comedy club. Somebody makes fun of him in his club and got banned from there (depending on the advertising it is kinda shitty, however I dont recall Musk saying you can say whatever you want on Twitter you wont be banned). Now this person goes to the club on the other side of the road and keeps making fun of him, and he leaves this person alone. Doesnt send police, doesnt sue, just ignore. This is what free speech is. Private person can act over what you say, but government shouldnt be able to.
He’s said many, many similar things though, sure not those exact, exact words perhaps. There’s also a wider issue here, which is namely that some of these platforms are so large, embedded and without particularly meaningful competition that they wield a hell of a lot of potential power. Should such platforms have to adopt certain standards, or perhaps citizens across the globe should have some ‘digital rights’? Hey perhaps that is a good direction of travel, or perhaps one may not and want to let the market decide. Now that problem isn’t remotely an exclusively Musk thing, we’ve seen this play out in many different places. Just a rather obvious example of it. I mean the guy didn’t even couch some actions in rules or terms of service violations, it simply was things he personally disliked in many instances. It ain’t good fam. My concern is that many of the folks banging on about free speech and the looney left for the past 15 years have gone rather quiet lately when there’s plenty of examples of what they were complaining about, from both private actors and the state, right there front and centre. On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
It really isnt. second part of your sentence simply makes you reasonable person, as only fools have no doubts. Did they? Because from what I have seen other posters for few pages feverishly argued that baal is wrong because count whatever wasn't jailed, but only fined, without realising that issue is whether police/court should get involved at all.
Baal was incorrect though. I’d agree that there’s a wider discussion that did get a bit buried in arguing that specific point. That said, it did happen and opinions did vary. I certainly recall myself and Drone arguing against state censure in this instance, possibly others did too. On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
Preconceptions? like, really? We are both on this forum long enough. from what I recall inciting violence through speech is something you are against? (my position is "direct" incitement of violence is free speech infringement I am willing to tolerate). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
I mean, I wonder why that could be eh? At least within here it strikes me that folks are criticised more for bad arguments, or for holding specific positions, rather than specifically for being right leaning. And GH gets plenty of flak, more than basically anyone and is rather left wing A preconception that some in here are out to curtail free speech or whatever and then arguing from that place. Versus what I think is the case in this thread broadly where people generally wish to preserve free speech, but at a time there are big challenges to the structure of our societies by certain aspects of it. I think people use such terms way, way too liberally at times for sure, although I wouldn’t consider them direct incitements to violence or anything like that First part: I am not here to defend Musk, just pointed out the difference between free speech, as in keeping government out of it, and free speech as in everyone can say whatever they want and everyone has to be fine with that. With the former I am in full agreement with the latter not so much. As for platforms with a lot of power I already agreed with you on that one, it is just our solutions are different. I think your stance is given away by "adopt certain standards" which I believe mean you would like to see some regulations in a style: you cant have that, you should correct that. Sad truth is that this sort of solution would give more power to government and this platforms. My solution (you can either moderate, or be accountable, but no both) takes away power from this platforms. As such I believe my solution is better (funnily enough I also think this is what everyone happen to think "my solution is better" ) Part 2: Yeah he was, but what does that matter? Everyone knew what his point was, but decided to nitpick, on quite frankly, irrelevant bullshit, if thats not arguing in bad faith I dont know what is. And yes some people did engage honestly, but their post were drowned in bunch of irrelevant stuff, so i guess goal achieved... Part 3: This one is fun: "I mean, I wonder why that could be eh? At least within here it strikes me that folks are criticised more for bad arguments, or for holding specific positions, rather than specifically for being right leaning." And this specific positions, are they right or left leaning?  " And GH gets plenty of flak, more than basically anyone and is rather left wing" So the guy who is leftist, but doesnt sign up to approved narrative is your example? Let me get this clear, guy on the left, who happened to have his own views on what left should be doing is getting a lot of flak? Surely it is not evidence of "one approved narrative"? "A preconception that some in here are out to curtail free speech or whatever and then arguing from that place. Versus what I think is the case in this thread broadly where people generally wish to preserve free speech, but at a time there are big challenges to the structure of our societies by certain aspects of it. I think people use such terms way, way too liberally at times for sure, although I wouldn’t consider them direct incitements to violence or anything like that" "Broadly" is such a useful word isnt it? Broadly speaking all animals are equal, but bear is more equal. What is your position on misinformation, disinformation, or, what is funny word used to hide inconvenient truths? Malinformation, was it? Edit: @Wombat thank you for mentioning Drone I remembered I need to answer to him, it will be separate post though.
Point 1:
Fair enough if that’s your position. This isn’t the position of the many I was alluding to, but it’s unfair to lump you in with those of different beliefs. There’s a reason it’s called ‘cancel culture’ and not ‘cancelled by the government’ after all.
I don’t really have a preferred solution here as such that I think will necessarily work, it’s tricky as I’ve said. Ideally the private sector would adopt some standards and frameworks voluntarily, as we saw in the early days of the internet with things like the codification of open source standards and open protocols.
If you don’t have that, which we clearly don’t, then I’d be pro-regulation in some form. But I’d rather see that as an agreed framework across as many nations as possible, to lessen the possibilities of abuse if it were say, a single state like the US calling the shots.
I’m also less concerned about hate speech than some because it gets tricky to define, for me it’s the misinformation and the algorithmic funnel that’s the big problem.
Point 2:
It may seem like nitpicking, I think sometimes the details are important if an argument springs from the details. To a degree I think doubling down also just leads to unproductive loops, when perhaps the idea itself merits discussion. Which I did say at the time.
Point 3:
What are the positions? There are a few traditionally right wing positions I personally agree with, and they live uneasily with my mostly quite far left-leaning worldview. I’d probably align more with Introvert on issues of religious liberty than those I tend to generally align with, to take one example.
Then you’ve got a bunch of stuff I just think is wrong, but ‘agree to disagree’ wrong, and there’s no real moral component there for me.
Get to category three, well that’s stuff I do think I have a more high ground on. Bumming Trump, defending something one was massively against a week ago, defending things like ICE shootings.
Yeah I’ll judge folks there, but it’s not because they’re right wing. A small government guy should be as opposed to Trump and ICE as I am, to take one example.
There’s also just thread dynamics. Person A comes in and just discusses things, and sure there might be friction, it’s only natural. Person B goes all out to ‘own the libs’. They might have the same actual views but Person A will be treated much better than Person B.
The Person B archetype swings in, posts like trash and then complains that they’re treated as such. But the problem there is that, not broader ideology
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Northern Ireland27070 Posts
On March 29 2026 11:59 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2026 15:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Your reading comprehension is off. I'm not negative towards ai as a tool for learning and I had no issues with baal posting the summary as a source.
I do have issues with people posting chatgpt posts as arguments but that is different. I read this one: Show nested quote +On March 13 2026 23:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:On March 13 2026 22:07 Simberto wrote:On March 13 2026 16:31 baal wrote:On March 11 2026 22:16 LightSpectra wrote:On March 11 2026 15:31 baal wrote:On March 09 2026 23:51 LightSpectra wrote:On March 09 2026 10:37 baal wrote:On March 08 2026 22:35 LightSpectra wrote:
Afghanistan is a country of est. 40 million and the NATO mission committed no more than 18,000 troops at a time to holding it. The total U. S. armed forces plus reserves is over 2,000,000 people, so the security force in Afghanistan is about 0.009% of what you're calling "the full force of the US military". there werent 40 million taliban combatants and the RoE would be very differnt, the US military can't just carpet bomb Los Angeles to kill armed citizens, the more the military escalates aggression the more internal turnmoil within it ranks happen, soldiers aren't going to blow up their own families, thats how civil war factions are formed. What Afghanistan proved is that no matter how many planes and tanks you have to control a population you need boots on the ground and people to surrender, unless you are willing to obliterate them which isn't an option in a civil war. What Afghanistan proved is that 18,000 troops being supplied from the other hemisphere can't hold a mountainous country of 40 million. It in no way proves that no government on Earth is capable of winning a civil war against insurgents using guerilla tactics, especially the richest government with the most well-funded military in human history. A perfectly loyal army, willing to kill their own friends and neighbors, to level its own infrastructure, that is not a realistic scenario in a civil war, however against an unarmed populous you only need a few bullets to seed enough fear to drive ppl into submission. You are again ignoring that many governments have indeed won civil wars/defeated insurgents throughout history. You can't just throw out platitudes and then cherrypick evidence for it. If civilians in Venezuela and Cuba were armed they would have staged an armed resistance that would likely develop into toppling the regime, maybe some external actors fund one side or the other, but the thing is, if the population is armed its much more difficult for dictators to take root. Hilariously uninformed. There are numerous militias in Venezuela. It's lawful to own personal weapons in Cuba. Talking with some of you is just... bizarre, you call others uninformed and then throw the dumbest imaginable statement ever like Cuban civilians owning guns. It's literally one of the countries with least civilian gun ownership in the entire world for fucks sake. In Venezuela a civilian carrying a gun has a 20 year sentence, the militias are pro-regime to suppress civilians you maniac. Please don't use that "AI overview" shit. We should not normalize it. There is an actual internet out there, with actual sources. Use those. They are right below the AI spam in the search. Yeah, it says 'thegunwriter' right under, and searching for 'thegunwriter' and 'cuba' I get sources like https://thegunwriter.substack.com/p/q-and-a-with-a-cuban-expert-on-the and why cuba has one of the lowest civilian gun rates, and it seems reasonably legit, and baal's statement seems largely correct. As you overall agreeing with Simberto point about not using AI as a source, but validating baal argument after checking the sources provided. Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Honestly Razyda you should just pay a visit to chatgpt and ask questions like 'how come nazism and fascism are considered far-right ideologies when the nazi program included policies that clearly could have been part of a socialist party's agenda' and hopefully, you'll end up being wiser. You can't just be like 'well I disagree' when you're talking about well-established definitions of words, because you're not the one who gets to define them, and if you insist on using a different, personalized set of definitions when you argue, people are inevitably going to think you make no sense. Here it seems like you suggesting to me to relay strictly on chatgpt to end up being "wiser" Apologies if i read it wrong, end of the day nobody is perfect. Out of curiosity I did just what you suggested (in google Ai however rather than chatgpt) and after few questions we agreed that there is no effective difference...
I don’t think what Drone is saying is contradictory
1. If one has a knowledge gap, chatting with an AI can help fill some gaps.
2. If we’re having discussions on a forum, try to do it manually as it were. Otherwise why bother? I can watch hour long YouTube vids or ask AI in my own time after all
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On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off.
I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise.
(EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
)
The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support.
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Northern Ireland27070 Posts
On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset Show nested quote + "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support.
Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic
|
On March 28 2026 12:16 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2026 11:43 KwarK wrote:On March 28 2026 11:36 baal wrote:On March 27 2026 20:26 Jankisa wrote:
In their racist heads, they (right wingers) see themselves as defenders of the white, Christian world against Muslim (and in this case also woke) hordes:
Nothing conveys white supremacy more than a Mexican fighting a bunch of Europeans lmao I’m sure you proudly self identify as one of the good ones. Seems very much your brand. I'm not a true Mexican unless I support your authoritarian left political views lol.
Oh, yeah, because it's impossible to be Hispanic white supremacist, well, that was what right wingers tried to convince everyone of, going so far to call the whole thing a psyop.
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On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic
Observing reality?
It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible.
At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though.
|
Not sure why you keep saying "the lesser evil" in German when it comes from Aristotle who wrote in Greek. Is that a reference to how more people should've voted for the SPD to keep the Nazis out of power but didn't?
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On March 30 2026 02:25 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense?
Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic Observing reality? It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible. At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though. Not sure why you keep saying "the lesser evil" in German + Show Spoiler + when it comes from Aristotle who wrote in Greek. Is that a reference to how more people should've voted for the SPD to keep the Nazis out of power but didn't?
Much like the US, the lesser evil won, helped lay the foundations for fascism ("Article 48" in Germany), and then bungled their way into empowering the fascists anyway leading to catastrophic consequences.
It doesn't repeat, but this stuff obviously rhymes.
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The "bungling" was when all the non-Nazi parties refused to coalesce to lock them out of power. You know, like when you said voting for Kamala Harris was voting for Hitler just to keep Hitler+ out, you electoralists will be the doom of us all, etc.?
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On March 30 2026 03:04 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 02:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
This is fun.
That you I believe:
[quote]
That also you:
[quote]
spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit."
+ Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic Observing reality? It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible. At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though. Not sure why you keep saying "the lesser evil" in German + Show Spoiler + when it comes from Aristotle who wrote in Greek. Is that a reference to how more people should've voted for the SPD to keep the Nazis out of power but didn't? Much like the US, the lesser evil won, helped lay the foundations for fascism ("Article 48" in Germany), and then bungled their way into empowering the fascists anyway leading to catastrophic consequences. It doesn't repeat, but this stuff obviously rhymes. The "bungling" was when all the non-Nazi parties refused to coalesce to lock them out of power. + Show Spoiler +You know, like when you said voting for Kamala Harris was voting for Hitler just to keep Hitler+ out, you electoralists will be the doom of us all, etc.?
They had their lesser evil "Grand Coalition" that locked the Nazis out. Their failures also helped lead to the next lesser evil willingly handing power to fascists anyway. Sorta like how Biden's bungling insistence on being the nominee while failing to actually make it to the election helped lead to him willingly handing power over to Trump/fascism.
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There was no Grand Coalition to lock the Nazis out. There was a coalition government from 1928 to 1930 if that's what you're referring to, but the Nazis held 12 out 491 seats and the coalition had nothing to do with them.
Kamala Harris losing millions of Biden voters is part of the reason Trump won, that part is correct.
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On March 30 2026 03:35 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 03:04 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 02:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic Observing reality? It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible. At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though. Not sure why you keep saying "the lesser evil" in German + Show Spoiler + when it comes from Aristotle who wrote in Greek. Is that a reference to how more people should've voted for the SPD to keep the Nazis out of power but didn't? Much like the US, the lesser evil won, helped lay the foundations for fascism ("Article 48" in Germany), and then bungled their way into empowering the fascists anyway leading to catastrophic consequences. It doesn't repeat, but this stuff obviously rhymes. The "bungling" was when all the non-Nazi parties refused to coalesce to lock them out of power. + Show Spoiler +You know, like when you said voting for Kamala Harris was voting for Hitler just to keep Hitler+ out, you electoralists will be the doom of us all, etc.? They had their lesser evil "Grand Coalition" that locked the Nazis out. Their failures also helped lead to the next lesser evil willingly handing power to fascists anyway. Sorta like how Biden's bungling insistence on being the nominee while failing to actually make it to the election helped lead to him willingly handing power over to Trump/fascism. There was no Grand Coalition to lock the Nazis out. There was a coalition government from 1928 to 1930 if that's what you're referring to, but the Nazis held 12 out 491 seats and the coalition had nothing to do with them. + Show Spoiler +
Kamala Harris losing millions of Biden voters is part of the reason Trump won, that part is correct.
I'm referring to:
a conglomerate of parties with somewhat conflicting interests that banded together as a safeguard for democracy against the radical political parties, the Communist Party and the Nazi Party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_coalition_(Germany)
Sorta reminds one of a big tent party/coalition united around protecting democracy from extremists like Trump.
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Yeah, so exactly as I said, it ended in 1930 before the Nazis were even a significant party in the Reichstag. In 1932 when they should've formed a coalition government to keep the Nazis out as they had become the largest individual party, they instead let the Nazis/Catholic Centre Party form a government instead.
Compare to Canada and Portugal where the far-right just got locked out of power because the left and center-left were wise enough to learn from the mistakes of Weimar and the USA.
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Canada11570 Posts
Wasn't it the KPD (the communists) that thought the SPD was the greater threat than the Nazi party? (Social democracy = social fascism in the view of Stalin and his man Thalmann.) It probably didn't help that both the KPD and the Nazis wanted to tear down liberal democracy, albeit for very different reasons.
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On March 30 2026 04:07 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 03:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 03:35 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 03:04 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 02:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 30 2026 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise.
(EDIT: on getting upset[quote])
The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic Observing reality? It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible. At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though. Not sure why you keep saying "the lesser evil" in German + Show Spoiler + when it comes from Aristotle who wrote in Greek. Is that a reference to how more people should've voted for the SPD to keep the Nazis out of power but didn't? Much like the US, the lesser evil won, helped lay the foundations for fascism ("Article 48" in Germany), and then bungled their way into empowering the fascists anyway leading to catastrophic consequences. It doesn't repeat, but this stuff obviously rhymes. The "bungling" was when all the non-Nazi parties refused to coalesce to lock them out of power. + Show Spoiler +You know, like when you said voting for Kamala Harris was voting for Hitler just to keep Hitler+ out, you electoralists will be the doom of us all, etc.? They had their lesser evil "Grand Coalition" that locked the Nazis out. Their failures also helped lead to the next lesser evil willingly handing power to fascists anyway. Sorta like how Biden's bungling insistence on being the nominee while failing to actually make it to the election helped lead to him willingly handing power over to Trump/fascism. There was no Grand Coalition to lock the Nazis out. There was a coalition government from 1928 to 1930 if that's what you're referring to, but the Nazis held 12 out 491 seats and the coalition had nothing to do with them. + Show Spoiler +
Kamala Harris losing millions of Biden voters is part of the reason Trump won, that part is correct.
I'm referring to: a conglomerate of parties with somewhat conflicting interests that banded together as a safeguard for democracy against the radical political parties, the Communist Party and the Nazi Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_coalition_(Germany)Sorta reminds one of a big tent party/coalition united around protecting democracy from extremists like Trump. Wasn't it the KPD (the communists) that thought the SPD was the greater threat than the Nazi party? + Show Spoiler +(Social democracy = social fascism in the view of Stalin and his man Thalmann.) It probably didn't help that both the KPD and the Nazis wanted to tear down liberal democracy, albeit for very different reasons.
Not really.
The KPD never forgave the SPD for its role in suppressing the 1918–1919 German Revolution, when the KPD founders Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht were murdered by Freikorps units under an SPD government. Their murder left the more "moderate" coalition the space they needed to make the Weimar Republic. But they also still basically thought of them as the "moderate fascists" based on their actions like using a right wing death squad to murder their political opposition/KPD leaders.
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On March 30 2026 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
But they also still basically thought of them as the "moderate fascists"
On March 30 2026 03:04 LightSpectra wrote:
You know, like when you said voting for Kamala Harris was voting for Hitler just to keep Hitler+ out, you electoralists will be the doom of us all, etc.?
I agree with this:
On March 30 2026 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
It doesn't repeat, but this stuff obviously rhymes.
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On March 29 2026 23:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." That also you but from now closed topic so cant quote properly: "His first amendment right to freedom of speech was obviously not violated just because he got assaulted by a random guy. Congress/ the federal government isn't part of the assault scenario. He got assaulted and what the assaulter did is illegal; if he were found, he'd be arrested. And he should be. But as far as whether or not people agree morally with punching a Nazi in the mouth... well, let's just say that both Captain America and Indiana Jones did it too, and surely people shouldn't be surprised that he was punched. I'd rather have a dialogue with the guy than punch him, but not everyone can control their anger against incendiary, toxic people. Also, his hate wasn't directed at me, so it's harder for me to relate to the kind of anger felt by those who are targeted, systemically oppressed, and constantly viewed as inferior." Dont take me wrong, it is just that for some it may seem that first you arguing that it is good to punch a "some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit" , or taking "proactive stance" if you prefer to phrase it that way, and then encouraged people to call republicans (which I believe is 50+kk people in US) racists and fascists, and make sure to mix it up with other stuff, to make it look okay. On March 29 2026 00:35 WombaT wrote:On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
It is good that you disagreeing, because it opens discussion. Now I'll try to explain where you got it wrong. Which is back to what freedom of speech means. lets go with your analogy to comedy club. Somebody makes fun of him in his club and got banned from there (depending on the advertising it is kinda shitty, however I dont recall Musk saying you can say whatever you want on Twitter you wont be banned). Now this person goes to the club on the other side of the road and keeps making fun of him, and he leaves this person alone. Doesnt send police, doesnt sue, just ignore. This is what free speech is. Private person can act over what you say, but government shouldnt be able to.
He’s said many, many similar things though, sure not those exact, exact words perhaps. There’s also a wider issue here, which is namely that some of these platforms are so large, embedded and without particularly meaningful competition that they wield a hell of a lot of potential power. Should such platforms have to adopt certain standards, or perhaps citizens across the globe should have some ‘digital rights’? Hey perhaps that is a good direction of travel, or perhaps one may not and want to let the market decide. Now that problem isn’t remotely an exclusively Musk thing, we’ve seen this play out in many different places. Just a rather obvious example of it. I mean the guy didn’t even couch some actions in rules or terms of service violations, it simply was things he personally disliked in many instances. It ain’t good fam. My concern is that many of the folks banging on about free speech and the looney left for the past 15 years have gone rather quiet lately when there’s plenty of examples of what they were complaining about, from both private actors and the state, right there front and centre. On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
It really isnt. second part of your sentence simply makes you reasonable person, as only fools have no doubts. Did they? Because from what I have seen other posters for few pages feverishly argued that baal is wrong because count whatever wasn't jailed, but only fined, without realising that issue is whether police/court should get involved at all.
Baal was incorrect though. I’d agree that there’s a wider discussion that did get a bit buried in arguing that specific point. That said, it did happen and opinions did vary. I certainly recall myself and Drone arguing against state censure in this instance, possibly others did too. On March 28 2026 12:43 Razyda wrote:
Preconceptions? like, really? We are both on this forum long enough. from what I recall inciting violence through speech is something you are against? (my position is "direct" incitement of violence is free speech infringement I am willing to tolerate). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
I mean, I wonder why that could be eh? At least within here it strikes me that folks are criticised more for bad arguments, or for holding specific positions, rather than specifically for being right leaning. And GH gets plenty of flak, more than basically anyone and is rather left wing A preconception that some in here are out to curtail free speech or whatever and then arguing from that place. Versus what I think is the case in this thread broadly where people generally wish to preserve free speech, but at a time there are big challenges to the structure of our societies by certain aspects of it. I think people use such terms way, way too liberally at times for sure, although I wouldn’t consider them direct incitements to violence or anything like that First part: I am not here to defend Musk, just pointed out the difference between free speech, as in keeping government out of it, and free speech as in everyone can say whatever they want and everyone has to be fine with that. With the former I am in full agreement with the latter not so much. As for platforms with a lot of power I already agreed with you on that one, it is just our solutions are different. I think your stance is given away by "adopt certain standards" which I believe mean you would like to see some regulations in a style: you cant have that, you should correct that. Sad truth is that this sort of solution would give more power to government and this platforms. My solution (you can either moderate, or be accountable, but no both) takes away power from this platforms. As such I believe my solution is better (funnily enough I also think this is what everyone happen to think "my solution is better" ) Part 2: Yeah he was, but what does that matter? Everyone knew what his point was, but decided to nitpick, on quite frankly, irrelevant bullshit, if thats not arguing in bad faith I dont know what is. And yes some people did engage honestly, but their post were drowned in bunch of irrelevant stuff, so i guess goal achieved... Part 3: This one is fun: "I mean, I wonder why that could be eh? At least within here it strikes me that folks are criticised more for bad arguments, or for holding specific positions, rather than specifically for being right leaning." And this specific positions, are they right or left leaning? " And GH gets plenty of flak, more than basically anyone and is rather left wing" So the guy who is leftist, but doesnt sign up to approved narrative is your example? Let me get this clear, guy on the left, who happened to have his own views on what left should be doing is getting a lot of flak? Surely it is not evidence of "one approved narrative"? "A preconception that some in here are out to curtail free speech or whatever and then arguing from that place. Versus what I think is the case in this thread broadly where people generally wish to preserve free speech, but at a time there are big challenges to the structure of our societies by certain aspects of it. I think people use such terms way, way too liberally at times for sure, although I wouldn’t consider them direct incitements to violence or anything like that" "Broadly" is such a useful word isnt it? Broadly speaking all animals are equal, but bear is more equal. What is your position on misinformation, disinformation, or, what is funny word used to hide inconvenient truths? Malinformation, was it? Edit: @Wombat thank you for mentioning Drone I remembered I need to answer to him, it will be separate post though. Point 1:Fair enough if that’s your position. This isn’t the position of the many I was alluding to, but it’s unfair to lump you in with those of different beliefs. There’s a reason it’s called ‘cancel culture’ and not ‘cancelled by the government’ after all. I don’t really have a preferred solution here as such that I think will necessarily work, it’s tricky as I’ve said. Ideally the private sector would adopt some standards and frameworks voluntarily, as we saw in the early days of the internet with things like the codification of open source standards and open protocols. If you don’t have that, which we clearly don’t, then I’d be pro-regulation in some form. But I’d rather see that as an agreed framework across as many nations as possible, to lessen the possibilities of abuse if it were say, a single state like the US calling the shots. I’m also less concerned about hate speech than some because it gets tricky to define, for me it’s the misinformation and the algorithmic funnel that’s the big problem. Point 2:It may seem like nitpicking, I think sometimes the details are important if an argument springs from the details. To a degree I think doubling down also just leads to unproductive loops, when perhaps the idea itself merits discussion. Which I did say at the time. Point 3:What are the positions? There are a few traditionally right wing positions I personally agree with, and they live uneasily with my mostly quite far left-leaning worldview. I’d probably align more with Introvert on issues of religious liberty than those I tend to generally align with, to take one example. Then you’ve got a bunch of stuff I just think is wrong, but ‘agree to disagree’ wrong, and there’s no real moral component there for me. Get to category three, well that’s stuff I do think I have a more high ground on. Bumming Trump, defending something one was massively against a week ago, defending things like ICE shootings. Yeah I’ll judge folks there, but it’s not because they’re right wing. A small government guy should be as opposed to Trump and ICE as I am, to take one example. There’s also just thread dynamics. Person A comes in and just discusses things, and sure there might be friction, it’s only natural. Person B goes all out to ‘own the libs’. They might have the same actual views but Person A will be treated much better than Person B. The Person B archetype swings in, posts like trash and then complains that they’re treated as such. But the problem there is that, not broader ideology
"I don’t really have a preferred solution here as such that I think will necessarily work, it’s tricky as I’ve said. Ideally the private sector would adopt some standards and frameworks voluntarily, as we saw in the early days of the internet with things like the codification of open source standards and open protocols."
There is couple of issues with this solution, 1st one "voluntarily" it simply means they can drop it on a whim. Second -obviously they are going to do it, it is like their wet dream, this is actually entire source of their power. This is what gives them aility to elevate opinions they like and bury ones they dont.
"If you don’t have that, which we clearly don’t, then I’d be pro-regulation in some form. But I’d rather see that as an agreed framework across as many nations as possible, to lessen the possibilities of abuse if it were say, a single state like the US calling the shots.
I’m also less concerned about hate speech than some because it gets tricky to define, for me it’s the misinformation and the algorithmic funnel that’s the big problem."
So you are pro regulation in this case. Agreed framework never going to happen on it, as different countries have different laws and cultures. Quatar probably wont be ok with criticizing royal family or Islam, Germany would still want to fine people for offending politicians, Starmer would have a stroke if he found out that he cant arrest people for saying we love bacon, and can you imagine liberals in US if they were suddenly told that they are going to pay fines for offending politicians (particularly orange buffoons). To be fair US response would be probably the same across the political spectrum, at east while Trump is in charge.
And who would decide what is "misinformation"? Notwithstanding that todays misinformation may be truth tomorrow, would you be really happy with Trump government deciding whats misinformation?
As for algorithmic funnel I agree, I simply see algorithm as a part of moderation, because this is its realistic effect. Thats why section 230 is rubbish and needs to go.
On March 29 2026 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Point 3:
What are the positions? There are a few traditionally right wing positions I personally agree with, and they live uneasily with my mostly quite far left-leaning worldview. I’d probably align more with Introvert on issues of religious liberty than those I tend to generally align with, to take one example.
Why would your positions sit uneasily with your worldview? Your positions are part of your worldview, where the uneasiness comes from? Why say "my mostly quite far left-leaning worldview" rather than "my worldview" why describe positions as left/right, rather than yours?
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On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic
Seems pretty fanciful to me as well that Europe would ask the totalitarian Fascist government to save them from the democracy descending into fascism.
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On March 30 2026 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2026 01:40 WombaT wrote:On March 30 2026 00:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 18:06 Acrofales wrote:On March 29 2026 17:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 29 2026 11:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 29 2026 11:21 Razyda wrote:On March 28 2026 17:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 28 2026 16:05 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 28 2026 12:25 Razyda wrote:). Are you maybe thinking that calling people nazis, racists, child rapists, or fascists isnt inciting violence? Because you can hardly find more despicable beings than the one named (kinda, if I went back in time I would kill baby Hitler, because apparently nothing makes one goodder than killing innocent babies), and calling people this names can be considered as incitement of violence.
Lastly: you do realise that being called right winger on this forum is considered to be an offence, while being on the left is a virtue?
Are you talking incitement to violence in the legal sense or in the colloquial sense? Either way, it's ridiculous. God forbid someone be correctly categorized as a despicable person. The Nazi / racist / rapist has already incited violence; calling out that person is the least we can do, and doing so is not inherently an incitement of violence. If the point is supposed to be that merely assigning an accurate label isn't going to change that person's beliefs or actions, then that's fair. We can't only assign a label and then walk away, because assigning the label - while hopefully accurate - doesn't fix the problem. But statements like "Trump is a racist" and "Trump is a rapist" are factually accurate and do not incite violence. If someone wanted to add an incitement of violence afterwards, like "Trump is a racist and ought to be murdered", then that tautologically incites violence, but not because of the accurate label "racist". One might also choose to make the argument that publicly assigning these accurate labels may not be the most effective form of communicating issues or a need for change, since these labels might make people defensive or hurt their feelings. But, again, that's not the same thing as claiming that calling a fascist "a fascist" is inciting violence. This is fun. That you I believe: On October 16 2025 19:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2025 19:12 pmh wrote:
The democrats should stop focussing on the wrong things as distractions. They are beeing played like crazy.
Its easy to recognize the wrong things. Its what is most upvoted on the reddit politics forum and what is pushed artificially as centre of attention.
The epstein case in general , the ice stuff and now this nazi group chat which has at least 3-4 threads with botted upvotes on the reddit politics forum.
Its also easy to recognize the right things for the democrats to focus on. Its what has only 1 thread on reddit politics forum with little upvotes. Or its news which is even completely banned from discussing on the reddit politics forum while still clearly relevant (like all journalists walking out of the pentagon today. Which has zero threads on reddit politics forum).
Nazi group chat really. Is that what will turn public opinion? Trudeau has blackface pictures released nothing happend. Its not what the centre cares about.
The "left" needs to win over the centre. They will never get anywhere without the centre.
That is why all journalists walking out of pentagon is banned from discussion on reddit politics forum. Because it apeals to the centre,it is something the centre can get angry about.
That is also why ice and epstein is pushed on reddit poltics forum. Because the centre is not to unhappy in general with what ice claims to be doing,getting criminal illegals out. The centre also is not bussy with epstein which is basicly 3 year old news recycled and something that apeals to conspiracy theorists.
Its a lost case either way but still.
I don't think that it's necessarily "wrong" to point out that Trump allegedly raped children, that people are being attacked and abducted by an American gestapo, and that Republicans are racist and fascist... as long as other points are also being made (e.g., that the Republicans have shut down the government because they got caught removing healthcare from Americans). As long as a diverse number of topics are being covered (healthcare, living wages, taxes, education, etc.), then I don't mind also including the three you dismissed. Assuming your assertion about needing to win over the center is true, why do you think the center doesn't care about those three issues you listed? That also you: On November 28 2018 01:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 28 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:So I believe it might be worth reporting because the “OK” symbol has nothing to do with products being made in America. It recently has become a low key way people to show support for “White Power” and racism in general. Due to that, I don’t think taking that ticker in good faith is a smart move. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_(gesture)#As_white_power_symbol I see, thank you! I'm also aware of it used in "the circle game" where if you make the sign below your waist and someone else looks at it, you get to punch them. Perhaps we should be proactive and start punching people that make this sign, just in case they're playing the circle game they're white supremacists. + Show Spoiler +I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit. spoiler part for easier read: "I'm only half joking, if this is indeed some alt-right/ white power/ Nazi-esque bullshit." + Show Spoiler +Thank you for providing more evidence of how merely using an accurate label doesn't necessarily incite violence, and how even suggesting violence may or may not actually cause violence. These two sentences are not the same: "I think X is a bad person" and "I think X is a bad person and they should be beaten up as a result". If you want to cite any additional examples that continue to strengthen my position and weaken yours, be my guest!
Honestly, it just sounds like you're upset that Republicans are being called out for supporting racism and fascism, and that some people are okay with punching Nazis. Maybe spend a little more time scrutinizing discriminatory and unethical beliefs and actions, and a little less time clutching your pearls when you see bigotry and immorality being properly identified. It's also wild that you would condemn someone for condemning a child rapist, instead of you condemning the child rapist. Also, WombaT's counterexample to your claim that left-wing posters are always seen as virtuous (GH was cited) shouldn't be hand-waved away. Left wing posters have almost entirely been driven away/given up on you guys. What's left here are mostly various types of centrists arguing with (and inadvertently normalizing/legitimizing) fascists while they collaboratively drag the overton window rightward. I think you might get really upset about the state of your country, or even Europe, if you ever get up and away from TL.net and take a looksie outside at it. + Show Spoiler +The left (as in socialists) hasn't disappeared on TL.net, it has disappeared everywhere. Die Linke or La France Insoumise kinda do okay at elections lately, but any governing coalition is never going to include them. There aren't enough votes for other leftish parties, and the center refuses to join with them and invariably prefers a neoliberal coalition. Portugal and Spain fare a bit better, but they also had fascist dictatorships a lot more recently, and even there the far right is gaining traction. So I guess if I were you I would count my blessings here on TL.net: if we had elections here right now, you'd have a large social-democratic majority, whereas the real world is clearly worse off. I regularly meet with socialists irl. The world is bigger than the US and a Europe that is looking at China to help save them from a fascist US that will hold hands with Europe into fascism otherwise. (EDIT: on getting upset "To be a Black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a state of rage almost, almost all of the time — and in one's work. And part of the rage is this: It isn't only what is happening to you. But it's what's happening all around you and all of the time in the face of the most extraordinary and criminal indifference, indifference of most white people in this country, and their ignorance."
) The social-democratic majority part is questionable, especially since so many are supposed to be socialists that are just restricted to being "pragmatic" centrists by how US politics functions rather than them being as conservative/right-wing as the people they support. Where are you getting that Europe is looking to China to save us from a Fascist US from? That’s not really the conversation that’s occurring this side of the Atlantic Observing reality? It's been mentioned here a few times regarding things like needing China to stand up to the US's economic bullying and provide an alternative hegemon for Europe to (at minimum) use diplomatically to keep the US in check/supplement them while they work on their "strategic autonomy" thing. Without China's (mutually interested) help, Europe transitioning toward their fantasy of "strategic autonomy" is basically impossible. At this rate you guys are probably going to das kleinere Übel yourselves into another Hindenburg (or few) though.
While I don't discount a balance between the US and China as something Europe could utilize diplomatically you do realize that as long as we don't get invaded we just have to wait for it in the long term.
And I don't mean politically this is about economic reality.
Europe is mainly trying it's best not to get fucked short term at the moment, as does most of the rest of the world. Medium term we need a better nuclear deterent.
Politically the situation could resolve itself as early as the midterms, in 2028 or never.
Economically it resolves once the US debt goes critical. Hard to predict but unavoidable at this point if something is not done. And there are no signs of anyone in the US even thinking about doing something about it.
The "problem" is that overall we quite like US hegemony and would like it to get better and survive. Either hyperinflation or extreme austerity is not good for global force projection (it's expensive). I don't know what the world will look like when that happens but unless China becomes the sole superpower then "strategic autonomy" for EU (if it's still intact) is pretty much a given.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/897411f7ae79a98b5dacc7e7d8599710.png)
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