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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On May 24 2018 22:03 Plansix wrote:
The president is still deep into fueling that culture war. Implying the NFL players that don’t come out for the anthem should have their citizenship stripped. Mandatory patriotism is the thing of dictatorships.
But also seems to be a popular idea in some segments of the US population. I remember the endless, eye-rollingly serious 'America, love it or leave it' period.
In fact, I think FOX would be really enthusiastic about 'mandatory patriotism'. They'd happily be state news for that.
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On May 24 2018 22:30 iamthedave wrote:But also seems to be a popular idea in some segments of the US population. I remember the endless, eye-rollingly serious 'America, love it or leave it' period. In fact, I think FOX would be really enthusiastic about 'mandatory patriotism'. They'd happily be state news for that. I mean, the pledge of allegiance is still a thing is (some/many?) schools right?
Mandatory patriotism has been a thing in the US for a long time.
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I'm not letting you quit. I quit first. And instead of just threatening to quit so that I can still come without losing face I will fully announce that I quit so that there is no possibility of recovery.
Playground level diplomacy at its finest...
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In the biggest shocker of all, Trump is unable to resolve the NK conflict.
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On May 24 2018 23:06 Plansix wrote:
In the biggest shocker of all, Trump is unable to resolve the NK conflict.
I think going forward the US may be the Korean conflict. Why would SK put any faith in Trump and the US to be reasonable actors in this? My knowledge of the political situation is limited but my read of this from a while ago was that it looks more like SK moving away from the US than NK moving toward the US.
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I have no real surprise. Comparing North Korea to Libya from Bolton and I think Pence was not exactly the smartest side-by-side. There was always a strong chance all the reconciliation efforts were for positive PR and buying time as well. You can't expect to play give-and-take diplomacy when you are playing with a one man wins game and say the other guy might end up killed on the streets and have their corpse paraded.
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"You talk about your nuclear capabilities, but ours are so massive and powerful that I pray to God they will never have to be used."
Such language in a formal diplomatic letter? I wonder if there are any parts that are lost in translation.
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Norway28559 Posts
they called Mike Pence a 'political dummy'.
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To be honest, I think that the less Trump has to do with SK-NK relations, the more likely that the conflict will end.
On May 24 2018 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
they called Mike Pence a 'political dummy'.
To be fair, Mike Pence did pretty much say that if NK agree to denuclearisation, the US will assassinate the North Korean leadership. He probably intended the opposite, so... um yeah. Political dummy.
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On May 24 2018 23:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
To be honest, I think that the less Trump has to do with SK-NK relations, the more likely that the conflict will end.
China won't back down while the US military is in SK. I don't see a real peace happening without a US withdrawal from the region.
That's why the divide happened in the first place. To stop the US from gaining a foothold in China's backyard.
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On May 24 2018 23:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote:To be honest, I think that the less Trump has to do with SK-NK relations, the more likely that the conflict will end. Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 23:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
they called Mike Pence a 'political dummy'. To be fair, Mike Pence did pretty much say that if NK agree to denuclearisation, the US will assassinate the North Korean leadership. He probably intended the opposite, so... um yeah. Political dummy.
That was really some 7D chess from them going on there.
It's quite amusing to see the parallel with North Korean leadership, that seems not to have made their mind between threatening nuclear apocalypse and making friends. I suspect that behind a threatening totalitarian facade, it's as much of a clowntown shitshow in Pyongyand as it is at the White House.
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Who knows what Xi Jinping is thinking. We don't even know what Trump is thinking. In all likelihood, China is seeking the withdrawal of American forces in South Korea, but we might see peace yet before Bisu returns from the military. As far as I can see, the talks involve SK-NK-China with the occassional praising towards Trump to butter him up to smooth the diplomatic process. Till, you know, someone demanded that NK fully denuclearise and get killed. Who knows, maybe it was all planned because the adminstration of USA don't want to deescalate NK-SK relations.
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On May 24 2018 23:36 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Who knows what Xi Jinping is thinking. We don't even know what Trump is thinking. In all likelihood, China is seeking the withdrawal of American forces in South Korea, but we might see peace yet before Bisu returns from the military. As far as I can see, the talks involve SK-NK-China with the occassional praising towards Trump to butter him up to smooth the diplomatic process. Till, you know, someone demanded that NK fully denuclearise and get killed. Who knows, maybe it was all planned because the adminstration of USA don't want to deescalate NK-SK relations.
If we have learnt one thing from those guys it's that when they say or do something that is either unbelievably dumb or really calculated, it's 100% of the time just unbelievably dumb.
There is no administration, just a man child with a crown surrounded by people who have to improvise every day with whatever goes through his head and whatever BS he has tweeted from his bed while watching Fox News. And my take is that there is no strategy, or at least no unified strategy, because again, the guy in charge reportedly doesn't listen to anything that lasts more than 5 minutes, doesn't read and therefore has no idea what's going on.
I think we just have to hope that Bolton doesn't get one of the war he wants and wait two years, hoping that americans will not go full moron again and reelect him in 2020. And it might not even make a difference because it might be that the status quo is better than any of the other options, which seems to be the conclusion previous administrations seem to have reached.
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On May 24 2018 23:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:The full letter: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/999647796218269697/photo/1What hostile statement by NK is he referring to? Also what purpose does the sentence 'We were informed that the meeting was requested by North Korea, but that to us is totally irrelevant' have?
Self quote but this is the statement referred to in the letter (source):
Ms. Choe, in her statement Thursday, took issue with an interview that Mr. Pence gave to Fox News earlier this week in which he suggested that the North sought the summit meeting with Mr. Trump.
She also criticized the vice president for bringing up Libya in the context of denuclearization—a sensitive subject for North Korea, after Moammar Gadhafi was overthrown and killed in 2011, eight years after giving up Libya’s nuclear weapons. Mr. Pence said the Libya model would only come about if North Korea failed to denuclearize.
In her Thursday statement, published by the Korean Central News Agency, Ms. Choe called Mr. Pence’s words “unbridled and impudent” and said that “Pence should have seriously considered the terrible consequences of his words.”
“As a person involved in the U.S. affairs, I cannot suppress my surprise at such ignorant and stupid remarks gushing out from the mouth of the U.S. vice president,” she said.
Ms. Choe added that, if the U.S. continues to offend the North’s “goodwill,” she would tell Mr. Kim to reconsider the Singapore summit with the U.S.
“It is the U.S. who has asked for dialogue, but now it is misleading the public opinion as if we have invited them to sit with us,” Ms. Choe said. “We will neither beg the U.S. for dialogue nor take the trouble to persuade them if they do not want to sit together with us.
So the sentence I didn't understand is part of a retarded 'no it was you' game between US and NK for who actually initiated the planned talks.
And the use by Trump/Bolton/Pence of the term 'Libya model', as if they didn't realize how Gadaffi ended up, for a denuclearization path is what made NK insult Pence, And now talks are off. Sigh.
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Man, I would be absolutely fucking livid if I was South Korean. Incredible progress completely shot in the face by a braindead administration.
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5930 Posts
Like I said in the North Korea thread, Trump’s beligence and hastiness screwed up this open dunk. Like any blown dunks, you end up looking like an asshole because just about anyone should be able to get the ball in. Given the way things were going, there was an easy PR win even if you didn’t get North Korea to completely fold.
North Korea does not come out of this looking like the bad actor, the US threatened to dispose Kim regardless of the options he chose because there’s no way you can trust the US after they pulled from the Iran nuclear deal without any advanced warning to the European Union. No one is going to blame North Korea here, in a lot of ways they acted rationally.
It also doesn’t help that the Whitehouse and Trump started talking about Nobel prizes because that just transparently tells everyone how much you want the summit to happen. Trump doesn’t know what negotiation actually is so the only results to be had is a North Korean fold (impossible given the demands) or Trump saying “I broke up with you, you didn’t break up with me”. Seeing Trump always goes with the latter option every time, it’s a pretty easy game to play.
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On May 24 2018 23:57 Mohdoo wrote:
Man, I would be absolutely fucking livid if I was South Korean. Incredible progress completely shot in the face by a braindead administration.
I wonder if they even got a heads up...
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EPT
