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On January 19 2019 06:38 JimmiC wrote:
Many countries dictators have used an attempted coup or something similar to declare that martial law and start the end of the democracy (Turkey and Venezuela come to mid as examples from very different sides of the political spectrum). I could see Trump trying something similar with his love of "strong leaders". I would hope your republic would be strong enough to repel this sort of thing. Wannebe dictators secure loyalty from the army before attempting such a thing, Trump does not have that loyalty and I still hold that the military will strait up refuse to obey his (illegal) orders if he were to try.
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United States24579 Posts
On January 19 2019 08:20 On_Slaught wrote:
Trump to make an announcement about the border tom. It can only mean a declaration of an emergency, no?
I think strategically, the best thing the democrats can do right now is for Pelosi's office to send out a tweet that says, "I will be making a major announcement concerning the Articles of Impeachment, and if there will be a vote, tomorrow afternoon at 3 P.M., live from the @CapitolBuilding."
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On January 19 2019 09:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2019 06:38 JimmiC wrote:
Many countries dictators have used an attempted coup or something similar to declare that martial law and start the end of the democracy (Turkey and Venezuela come to mid as examples from very different sides of the political spectrum). I could see Trump trying something similar with his love of "strong leaders". I would hope your republic would be strong enough to repel this sort of thing. Wannebe dictators secure loyalty from the army before attempting such a thing, Trump does not have that loyalty and I still hold that the military will strait up refuse to obey his (illegal) orders if he were to try.
I still maintain that it could be a slow slide. When government employees, their families, and people like me take to the streets after another month of this, he could send out the military to "keep the peace". It's an easy jump from that to shooting the "enemy" who is looting or pelting soldiers with rocks. God, I'm so pessimistic.
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Interesting. The Special Counsel is disputing BuzzFeed's reporting. If BuzzFeed was wrong on this, they aren't helping with the reputation of the news media and effectively sunk their own credibility, and made the House Dems scramble off nothing.
On January 19 2019 10:21 Plansix wrote:
Someone in the White House told him to lie, it’s unclear if that person was instructed to do so by Trump.
Edit: every news agency I follow was very clear that the reports were not yet confirmed. But I know that everyone is going to take shots at news agencies because the barest amount of critical thinking is a fucking struggle.
Worth noting this. Beyond the hysteria of TV, the print sources I saw were fairly restrained and were clear it wasn't confirmed. There's a reason why the NYT and WaPo didn't feature it on the front last I checked; because they didn't have the corroboration from their sources.
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That is very lawyerly statement. It is not a straight out denial, but also says the facts are wrong.
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The most likely scenario yesterday is still true today. They think/know that Cohen lied, but they can't put it on Trump. And given that Cohen is a notorious liar, that spells the end of the that, most likely.
edit: it's also kind of funny watching a few other reporters (including Farrow, who is getting the most attention) wait to say they didn't run with this story until after the statement.
edit2: also the fact that they put out a statement at all is pretty interesting, normally they just ignore this stuff. It must be seriously wrong. That the implications are huge also matters... like why was Mueller sitting on this impeachable offense for so long? So they must really not have it.
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Someone in the White House told him to lie, it’s unclear if that person was instructed to do so by Trump.
Edit: every news agency I follow was very clear that the reports were not yet confirmed. But I know that everyone is going to take shots at news agencies because the barest amount of critical thinking is a fucking struggle.
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Yeah looks to me like a total refutation of the report tbh. The buzzfeed reporters involved should be fired and shamed. One of them unfortunately has a checkered past too.
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On January 19 2019 10:18 Introvert wrote:
edit2: also the fact that they put out a statement at all is pretty interesting, normally they just ignore this stuff. It must be seriously wrong. That the implications are huge also matters... like why was Mueller sitting on this impeachable offense for so long? So they must really not have it.
Are you saying Mueller really does not have any impeachable offenses to reveal?
I wonder does Trump now say to trust Mueller over the "fake news"? That would be an interesting turn...
Edit - i thought Cohen tweeted a confirmation about this?
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On January 19 2019 10:27 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2019 10:18 Introvert wrote:
edit2: also the fact that they put out a statement at all is pretty interesting, normally they just ignore this stuff. It must be seriously wrong. That the implications are huge also matters... like why was Mueller sitting on this impeachable offense for so long? So they must really not have it. Are you saying Mueller really does not have any impeachable offenses to reveal? I wonder does Trump now say to trust Mueller over the "fake news"? That would be an interesting turn... Edit - i thought Cohen tweeted a confirmation about this?
Certainly not one this strong. If I were to bet I'd say not at all, but if you saw the coverage this was one of those times where Trump's opponents really thought they might have him (and I was ready to re-up "bring on President Pence!"). But if it comes down to Trump's word vs. Cohen's word not a thing in the world will happen.
Trump will either not acknowledge Mueller at all or say something like "it was so bad even the Witch Hunters had to correct it."
Looking at his feed he's just retweeting people saying "it was always BS."
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Def makes Buzzfeed look very bad, tho Muellers response was also very lawyerly like P6 said. I imagine the evidence pinning it on Trump is a lot weaker than the Buzzfeed article would have us think, perhaps to the point Mueller wont even insinuate it.
Mueller was probably getting pressure to spill the beans now, rather than waiting, if there was direct evidence of this. This was a way to eliminate that pressure. Also, I wonder what this says about the credibility of the many other reports about supposed evidence that Mueller has that were never denied like this.
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Ronan Farrow who seems to be privy to all this says a source critical to BuzzFeed's story repeatedly disputed that Trump directly ordered the lying, but "general thrust of Cohen lying to Congress “in accordance with” or “to support and advance” Trump’s agenda (per Cohen’s legal memo) is not in dispute". That might have been the part the SC is having an issue with.
BuzzFeed is asking what the SC is disputing, but knowing how tight-lipped Mueller's team gets, I don't know if we will get an answer until another report or court case is out.
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Again, Trump didn’t do it directly if he did it. But someone told Cohen what to lie to congress about.
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If I had to guess, I’d say the person who told him to lie is either Jr. or Kushner.
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Huge, if it was. But further fun speculation.
But Don Jr. flip on his dad to avoid jail time? Especially if Dad told him to cover up stuff.
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I wonder if the White House/Trump surrogates relatively indirect (for them) denials of the Buzzfeed claims reflect them a) knowing this would be disputed by special counsel because it's bunk and they'd rather wait for that or b) this having happened but them not being sure if there was really evidence for it. Or if they were just doing typical scattershot disputing.
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After muellers statement I'm not sure how the notion that someone directed Cohen to lie survives. Although I dont know, his sent4ncing statement is a bit ambiguous.
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One lawyer on twitter's interpretation suggests that "this office" could be key to the statement since this is such an information-dense statement. Perhaps they are saying they didn't have/find the info initially? Another lawyer said that it is somewhat of a non-denial denial since it disputes the characterization of the information, but not necessarily the information itself. Again, it's all lawyer-speak so it can either say a lot with few words or be exactly what it seems to be.
But yeah, this is why I was skeptical of it. It seemed too good to be true in a way and the hesitation of all the print news organizations to say anything about it at all today suggested it wasn't. Of course I saw CNN and MSNBC going nuts over it the entire day (though even some of their guests in the brief bits I saw were basically saying "hey nobody else has confirmed this yet so don't start counting chickens here" and all Senate/House member responses were prefaced by "if this is true").
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So do we think Cohen still testifies before congress on feb 7?
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United States42009 Posts
On January 19 2019 11:47 Doodsmack wrote:
After muellers statement I'm not sure how the notion that someone directed Cohen to lie survives. Although I dont know, his sent4ncing statement is a bit ambiguous.
I mean the idea he lied to protect Trump of his own volition and nobody thought to correct the record is pretty weird too. If he lied it's very unlikely he did so without being told to.
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EPT
