EPTeSports Ergonomics Tutorial - Page 2
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blae000
Norway1640 Posts
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
On February 17 2016 04:29 blae000 wrote: When going to an "expert" to check the back type before buying some support for the back, what would that "expert" be? Regular doctor, chiropractor? Something else? Physiotherapists for exercises, stretches, posture, recovery times and routines tailored to your specific body and health status. (Some of them also have McKenzie therapy experience, so they can provide information for posture and back/neck mobilization in a more detailed way) Ergonomic therapists for posture, setup specific to you. A fair warning though that most ergonomic therapists are unfamiliar with gaming and will generally not take into account the required mobility you'd need to have to play SC2 at high level for example. In those cases explain to them how it works, and what tips and advice they have to create the best possible situation around it. This is only relevant at higher levels of performance. Chiropractor is more mobility/posture focused, and are generally helpful when you have radiated pain from entrapments. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 17 2016 03:33 SC2FeaR wrote: Hello, left hand issues with 2 fingers in particular! Therapists didnt find anything same as doctor and checked over everything setup wise... apparently perfect got any ideas?  The real questions are which kind of issues and which fingers though | ||
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SC2FeaR
5 Posts
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Primelot
51 Posts
because i have the Armrest or should i just put everything higher like you showed or is my current position good? Also if i try to Practice like 8 - 12 Hours a day which i sometimes do for a week or so, the last time my Wrist hurted a bit, but i also didn't streched that much, would you say i could practice that amount longer then a week or so, strech alot like what i do now ( Micro Breaks) or would you say that's too much? thanks in Advance and thank you for the awesome work you both are doing  Also pls help Fear out :D | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
On February 18 2016 09:44 Primelot wrote: I'm a bit confused now how to sit the best way, so i have a Need for Seat Chair with armrests which i can change how i like it. At the Moment i sit like you showed if i had none, just my keyboard a bit lower then my Mouse. So should i now Sit like Pro Gamers like Zest/ Taeja ( http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=bbe76e-1455757103.png i can't link it directly fml ) because i have the Armrest or should i just put everything higher like you showed or is my current position good? Also if i try to Practice like 8 - 12 Hours a day which i sometimes do for a week or so, the last time my Wrist hurted a bit, but i also didn't streched that much, would you say i could practice that amount longer then a week or so, strech alot like what i do now ( Micro Breaks) or would you say that's too much? thanks in Advance and thank you for the awesome work you both are doing Also pls help Fear out :D Primelot: + Show Spoiler + I will focus on your question about practice first. In general, if playing starts hurting you, this is a good indicator of where your physical limit lies within the ergonomic setup that you currently have, and I strongly recommend not pushing that limit via play. Factors like stress, diet, muscle strength, muscle endurance and muscle fatigue from daily activities outside of SC2 can cause a fluctuation of this limit that cannot be pinpointed to one singular factor, but only to the sum of them. Measuring the time it takes you to feel pain or heavy fatigue while playing for longer time periods is nice but not as efficient as making a judgment call on your limit on a "per experience" basis. On day one you finish after three hours, on day two this might be eight, while on day three you barely hit two hours. If you want to train hard for a longer period of time, the best advice I can give you is as follows: Prevention of injury is the best cure. It is wise to go see a physiotherapist, explain your endeavour to him and let him devise a custom exercise and stretch routine for your specific physical build, health, diet and daily activity schedule (including SC2). This will most likely include a slow but efficient routine that slowly trains your muscles and motor neurons to endure and adapt to progressively longer bouts of play. As for your sitting posture question, if your arm rests from the chair match your physical build really well when you set them up, e.g. you can relax your shoulders, hold up your neck well, have good angles when it comes to arms and legs and have it at the exact height of your desk (preventing high pressure on a small area of say the wrist), you can use the arm rests just fine. Still keep track of how it feels, if it starts to discomfort you often or even causes pain, stop, reconfigure and try again. It's a finetuning process which is ever so slightly different for every person. Seeking feedback from an ergonomic professional in your region who can actually check out your setup in person would be best, provided you explain to the professional exactly what you do, how you do it and how it taxes you. Finally, we provide only general guidelines and ideas. I cannot stress the following point enough: Always seek out professionals if you are serious about your health, especially if you want to do something professionally, even more so when it is SC2. For SC2FeaR: + Show Spoiler + The info you provided is very limited. Is the left hand your keyboard or mouse hand? What kind of experts have you visited exactly? What type of feedback was provided? For you I strongly recommend coordinating with a physiotherapist to uncover whether or not this issue is caused by fatigue, limited mobility or entrapments (if the problems persist, MRI/echo can often give insight if it starts limiting your daily activities), and so on. Make sure to keep building up muscle strength and endurance of the upper body meanwhile. I hope you can figure it out! | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
When I was learning posture for piano, what I gathered was that you are looking at elbow height and knuckle height. You want them to be similar so that your wrist isn't bent too far back when you strike the keys. If I put my elbow on the table and my wrist on the table and then I bend my hand back so that my fingers can grip my mouse, my wrist is not in its best position for comfort and power. I have to exert more effort to use my fingers and wrist in that position. Given that your wrist is going to have to bend back to get your hand over the mouse, it feels better to have the elbow slightly lower than the desk (preferably resting on an armrest) so that your forearm is coming up at an angle. The wrist rests on the edge of the desk and the knuckle to forearm angle stays in the most powerful range for wrist and finger use. Going back to the piano, imagine that someone about to play the piano has a mouse pushed under their hands and must bend back their wrists to accommodate it. Obviously they're no longer in the optimal position for finger and wrist use -- they were in the optimal position before and now their wrist is bent back from there. I think the desk posture you describe with respect to forearms/wrists would be correct if there was no mouse and you were depressing keys like the piano but the mouse height means adjustments must be made. Elbows should feel "high" for piano because your hand goes flat and depresses keys. Elbows should feel "low" for mouse because your hand bends back and mouse clicks are relatively shallow and insignificant compared to piano key presses. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
On February 19 2016 00:03 NonY wrote: The advice on how to place your arm has always confused me with respect to the angle your hand ends up taking. When I was learning posture for piano, what I gathered was that you are looking at elbow height and knuckle height. You want them to be similar so that your wrist isn't bent too far back when you strike the keys. If I put my elbow on the table and my wrist on the table and then I bend my hand back so that my fingers can grip my mouse, my wrist is not in its best position for comfort and power. I have to exert more effort to use my fingers and wrist in that position. Given that your wrist is going to have to bend back to get your hand over the mouse, it feels better to have the elbow slightly lower than the desk (preferably resting on an armrest) so that your forearm is coming up at an angle. The wrist rests on the edge of the desk and the knuckle to forearm angle stays in the most powerful range for wrist and finger use. Going back to the piano, imagine that someone about to play the piano has a mouse pushed under their hands and must bend back their wrists to accommodate it. Obviously they're no longer in the optimal position for finger and wrist use -- they were in the optimal position before and now their wrist is bent back from there. I think the desk posture you describe with respect to forearms/wrists would be correct if there was no mouse and you were depressing keys like the piano but the mouse height means adjustments must be made. Elbows should feel "high" for piano because your hand goes flat and depresses keys. Elbows should feel "low" for mouse because your hand bends back and mouse clicks are relatively shallow and insignificant compared to piano key presses. You raise an interesting point here regarding the ergonomic setup used for playing the piano compared to keyboard and mouse usage, specifically when it comes to playing games with a high action per minute requirement. This is still a grey area since the "extreme" usage of computer input devices has not yet been explored in as many studies, being a relatively new user application of technology. The attention for me shifts to the relative impact of having your wrists resting on the edge of the desk versus the impact of having a slightly more limiting angle of the hand in relation to the elbow. Both are not the ideal situation, but depending on your individual physical build and traits, one may suit person A better while the other suits person B better. There are many tools and instruments which do not match the ideal ergonomic setting, yet still get used in practice by the majority of people, an inevitability. There will need to be an optimization of settings surrounding keyboard/mouse gaming setups not only in pheripherals and chairs, but also desks with inclines and such. For now, empirical testing for ones individual situation with help of professional support seems wisest to determine which of the two positions fits one the most (as an example). The position we show in the video has been quite succesful within a group of people with physical injuries from gaming (that I know of, and with feedback from PT and ergonomics), but every posture and positioning is still debatable at this point. | ||
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SC2FeaR
5 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17408 Posts
On February 21 2016 03:35 SC2FeaR wrote: Hey, so its my keyboard hand and I went to a sport specialist here who diagnosted tendonitis in 4th and 5th finger. It feels like my fingers are dragging down after 1-2 hours which used to be 8 hours then 6 etc.Therapy was supposed to heal it but they are not sure where exactly my pain is coming from and what exactly it is and how to fix it since the diagnose is apparently wrong or not quite correct ? as any musician who has battled tendonitis can attest it can be really tough to fully recover. if it is tendonitis it'll heal slowly because tendons have low circulation. if you want top notch diagnosis find a sports medicine clinic that is run by an MD; the clinic should have an orthopedic surgeon and acupuncturist on staff. word of mouth works best for finding a good sports medicine clinic. as far as a solid diagnosis goes : x-ray and ultrasound are 2 tools they might use. if the MD is good and is unsure of the diagnosis he'll start referring you to the surgeon or a hand specialist of some kind. find out from the previous diagnostician EXACTLY which tendons he/she suspects are the problem. As an example, there is a huge difference between lateral epicondylitis and medial epicondylitis. Braces are for more effective in recovering from lateral... and not so with medial. Stretching exercises most effective for each are also different even though both forms of tendonitis present elbow pain. | ||
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Mugen93
16 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On February 16 2016 06:48 EJK wrote: lower mouse dpi really helped release tension on my wrists, i have to play twice as many games to feel the same fatigue i used to feel at at 1800 dpi (currently at 750 now) Yeah, that's fairly common If EJK has it off i'm still curious to know if he really plays at 6/11 on a 1080p setting with 750 dpi because that's more than 6 centimeters mouse movement required to go from one edge of the screen to the other if i'm not mistaken. It's not a particularly low sens, you're just used to something more like his original sens which is on the high side. Here's a vid of one of the better mouse osu players at 800dpi 1920x1080. I use this sens too after a 5-year rollercoaster between 3200dpi +acceleration and 360dpi 1:1 on four different mice to try a lot of values and improve my mouse aim + comfort. + Show Spoiler + I tried 800 dpi on my 1366*768 resolution which is faster than that and it felt super slow You changed your sensitivity to something that you're not used to and it feels wrong - that happens to everyone, especially the people who stuck to one sens for a very long time and only know how to use a mouse in a certain narrow sens range. You have to break in a new set of muscle memory - or if you've never used similar before, develop it from scratch which can take a while. ---------------------- I've heard this before but I don't understand it really... lower dpi means you have to movee the mouse more so how does that bring you less fatigue? When you're playing at a high sensitivity, you have to squeeze your wrist+fingers a lot more to get a similar level of accuracy because a minor error will make you miss your target by a larger distance; you also tend to use smaller/less parts of your fingers/hand/wrist etc the higher sens you go. It's usually tension that causes fatigue - or even injury in more extreme cases. I've had my share of minor wrist and hand injuries from using a mouse and a graphics tablet wrongly (almost all of them from regularly tensing my hand inappropriately), and take care of it (and myself) more because of that. Playing at a medium or medium-low sensitivity lets you relax the grip more. That's not specific to a mouse. To roughly define sensitivity ranges for 2d stuff (like moving mouse on a desktop or playing starcraft/osu) i'll say: low = 2 inches to cross vertical space of screen (540dpi on 1080p) medium = 1 inch (1080dpi on 1080p) high = 0.5 inches (2160dpi on 1080p) those can be scaled to be independant of monitor resolution as it's used in the scale, for example on 768p you'd use 768dpi instead of 1080dpi for the same feeling and hand movement. That's all assuming unscaled input (no positive or negative acceleration, no other scaling) so that 1 sensor count is 1 pixel moved, as that's the best way to use a mouse. ---------------------- what i ask myself is if that is necessary also in a game like starcraft. If that is true, a pro playing 8 hours at day without rest days could underperform or not get in shape quickly cause his body has no time to recover. Rest time (solid sleep, etc) is essential for learning and a surprising amount of stuff considering all that the brain is responsible for, it's not just about repairing damage to your body in the ways that you'd cause it from physical training. I don't have any particular source there but there should be plenty of info on google | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On February 22 2016 09:53 Cyro wrote: Yeah, that's fairly common It's not a particularly low sens, you're just used to something more like his original sens which is on the high side. Here's a vid of one of the better mouse osu players at 800dpi 1920x1080. I use this sens too after a 5-year rollercoaster between 3200dpi +acceleration and 360dpi 1:1 on four different mice to try a lot of values and improve my mouse aim + comfort. + Show Spoiler + You changed your sensitivity to something that you're not used to and it feels wrong - that happens to everyone, especially the people who stuck to one sens for a very long time and only know how to use a mouse in a certain narrow sens range. You have to break in a new set of muscle memory - or if you've never used similar before, develop it from scratch which can take a while. ---------------------- When you're playing at a high sensitivity, you have to squeeze your wrist+fingers a lot more to get a similar level of accuracy because a minor error will make you miss your target by a larger distance; you also tend to use smaller/less parts of your fingers/hand/wrist etc the higher sens you go. It's usually tension that causes fatigue - or even injury in more extreme cases. I've had my share of minor wrist and hand injuries from using a mouse and a graphics tablet wrongly (almost all of them from regularly tensing my hand inappropriately), and take care of it (and myself) more because of that. Playing at a medium or medium-low sensitivity lets you relax the grip more. That's not specific to a mouse. To roughly define sensitivity ranges for 2d stuff (like moving mouse on a desktop or playing starcraft/osu) i'll say: low = 2 inches to cross vertical space of screen (540dpi on 1080p) medium = 1 inch (1080dpi on 1080p) high = 0.5 inches (2160dpi on 1080p) those can be scaled to be independant of monitor resolution as it's used in the scale, for example on 768p you'd use 768dpi instead of 1080dpi for the same feeling and hand movement. That's all assuming unscaled input (no positive or negative acceleration, no other scaling) so that 1 sensor count is 1 pixel moved, as that's the best way to use a mouse. ---------------------- Rest time (solid sleep, etc) is essential for learning and a surprising amount of stuff considering all that the brain is responsible for, it's not just about repairing damage to your body in the ways that you'd cause it from physical training. I don't have any particular source there but there should be plenty of info on google Yeah i've seen your mouse sensitivity propaganda in the tech support section for years Always thought i should tried but only started last week ^^ I was using 1600 dpi on a 1366*768 resolution. Now with 800dpi i think i use my wrist too much which strains it even more than on 1600dpi x) 800 dpi already was my default in csgo with 1.75 ingame sens, but it makes more sense as you make big arm movements and then use the low dpi to be precise when you're close to target. On the other hand with sc2 it feels awkward because it's a middle ground between that and the wrist control. What ends up happening is me sometimes hesitating between wrist or arm movement which messes up my gameplay and tires me faster so i guess i still have to get used to it? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
It doesn't really matter for CSGO, you'd measure sensitivity in cm/180 there and the difference between 800dpi multiplied by one number vs 1600dpi multiplied by another to get the same cm/180 is small | ||
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polpot
3002 Posts
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Kertorak
125 Posts
Im wondering about screen height. I have a laptop so my head automatically has to look "down". I think with respectable distance, it's fine. Optinally I could attack an extern keyboard and put the laptop on an anything raising its position, but that's not so easy for mobile usage. haha. Any thoughts on this? PS: I think many people doing it wrong using their breaks for browsing forums or wathcing youtube, especially to shorten queue-times. Hm EDIT: I think DPI is important to point out, that it will work depending on your monitor............ If you have a small monitor 600 DPI might be very good, once it gets bigger you might want to get 800 then 1000 etc Generally that's why DPI was so important (and famous) to improve for in mouse mice... (bigger modern screens). I was using 1800 dpi until now (quite big screen), and I am quite unprecise in aimbooster, but relative fine ingame... with mouse trainers. I'll try to get a middle ground solution... I think Jakatak gave a very good summary, of BELOW 2000 dpi is a must then it depends on personality and screen size. | ||
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Kertorak
125 Posts
A list of pros, their DPI, and their screen resolution would be awesome. I can recommend this overview, with the comment from a user about pros dpi and the source to reddit: https://on-winning.com/starcraft-pro-settings-setups/ reddit source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2hanfu/starcraft_2_progamer_mouse_dpi_settings/ AND ALWAYS, when you give a recommendation, about DPI, PLEASE , post your screen resolution. 800 dpi - 1000 dpi doesn't mean anything when their screens were super small, but then again I don't know about your screen sizes (maybe they were 3200x1800? or 1024x800?) , what I know is in the list list at the top. or YOU post your resolution into this thread please Here is mine: #1800 dpi @1920x1080 very handy ingame also in mouse trainer maps, I feel it's precise enough ingame, and helps with APM alot (doing alot of things all over the screen, not just micromanagement in the middle of your screen), that means jumping to a unit-gropu in the top right, to jumping to a unit-group in the bottom-left, to the minimap, and last but not least edge-camera control -when you have to is very important too - goes very quick = good. causing some fatigue in longer sessions, slight problem is precision on the minimap... which I recently tried to involve more, and I can't just not get precise on the minimap, it's always more jumping than I want.... this DPI is very bad in the challenge of aimbooster.com, but then again, that challenge is on a very small area of 640x400... not realistic and not a good comparison to Sc2 at all, rather do a custom challenge with original resolution. I made a custom challenge for Sc2 @1920x1080 resolution here (it has 1600x1000): http://aimbooster.com/s/2jKDcGY it has 3 lives, you can reduce or improve that if you want/need to #800 dpi @1920x1080 no fatigue, very good in aimbooster 's normal challenge, sc2 in testing... | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
I could call myself an investment expert at Danglars dot com with similar disclaimer and just offer common platitudes that may or may not be backed up by anything other than stuff I’ve heard and has worked for <5 years. | ||
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Escortsaffairads
1 Post
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