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On January 08 2015 06:20 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 06:08 Ishentar wrote:On January 08 2015 06:03 r00ty wrote:On January 08 2015 05:56 Ishentar wrote:
@zatic : Well I've seen on french news websites photos of ammunition and loaded magazines. I think it doesn't look like hunting caliber which is the only one legally available, i'll PM you if I find them. There's just marginal differences between the military and civil variants. E.g. .223 Remington (civil) and 5.56mm NATO. Pic: + Show Spoiler + Indeed, few differences, however I think the experts are able to distinguish the 2 calibers. Moreover, I have an hard time loading them since my student connection is really bad, but the videos of the shooting are quite easy to find online, according to the rate of fire on them, if you know weapons, you should be able to deduce whether they're automatic or not. Of course, but on some photos? You can fire automatic weapons in semi-auto, which is always preferred for accurate shooting. Full auto is for rare situations (supressive fire) or the movies. In the beginning of the events they even took it as evidence for military training of the attackers that they fired their AK's single shot. From the info we have, you can not know for sure atm. It might be real AK's or "legal" conversions.
I think the tight groupings and double tapping is more significant than single fire when it comes to their skill set.
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Seriously who cares if they got their weapons legally or not. It's not that hard to get military rifles on the black market, so French laws about weapon regulation are not at fault here.
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On January 08 2015 06:24 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 06:08 Ishentar wrote:On January 08 2015 06:03 r00ty wrote:On January 08 2015 05:56 Ishentar wrote:
@zatic : Well I've seen on french news websites photos of ammunition and loaded magazines. I think it doesn't look like hunting caliber which is the only one legally available, i'll PM you if I find them. There's just marginal differences between the military and civil variants. E.g. .223 Remington (civil) and 5.56mm NATO. Pic: + Show Spoiler + Indeed, few differences, however I think the experts are able to distinguish the 2 calibers. Moreover, I have an hard time loading them since my student connection is really bad, but the videos of the shooting are quite easy to find online, according to the rate of fire on them, if you know weapons, you should be able to deduce whether they're automatic or not. Some sources I'm finding are saying the terrorists used AK47's. Which are obviously military weapons which are outright banned in France. The videos clearly sound like semi-automatic fire, which corroborates that. The AK47 is capable of both semi-automatic and fully automatic fire.
Just checked some french armories online, AK variants are available if you have have been allowed to own one.
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Seriously why do you keep thinking that it's legally acquired weapon while :
1) Black markets weapons and ammo are at least 5 times cheaper.
2) They were already known for terrorism, no one would have ever sold them any weapon.
3) Black markets weapons are easier to obtain, especially when you are part of a terrorist group.
4) The caliber is confirmed to be 7,62, then the civilian obtained AKs would have needed a rework to use this caliber.
Previously, in some shooting between criminals, AK were used in France by organized crimes, they were from black market for these reasons, easier to obtain when you're a criminal, cheaper...
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On January 08 2015 06:31 OtherWorld wrote:
Seriously who cares if they got their weapons legally or not. It's not that hard to get military rifles on the black market, so French laws about weapon regulation are not at fault here.
Of course. I didn't mean to argue in any way. There was just some discussion about how they could acquire those weapons and I tried to be of assistance.
Most likely black market, or someone with a license bought them for them. Of course they shouldn't be able to acquire them themselves legally being known for ties to extremism already.
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to me it just seems like a huge overreaction to kill 12 people because you're upset about some drawings
according to danish media the french police know who the perpetrators are and where to find them and hopefully they'll get caught very soon
RIP 12 people at charlie
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Zurich15306 Posts
On January 08 2015 06:31 Ishentar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 06:24 Millitron wrote:On January 08 2015 06:08 Ishentar wrote:On January 08 2015 06:03 r00ty wrote:On January 08 2015 05:56 Ishentar wrote:
@zatic : Well I've seen on french news websites photos of ammunition and loaded magazines. I think it doesn't look like hunting caliber which is the only one legally available, i'll PM you if I find them. There's just marginal differences between the military and civil variants. E.g. .223 Remington (civil) and 5.56mm NATO. Pic: + Show Spoiler + Indeed, few differences, however I think the experts are able to distinguish the 2 calibers. Moreover, I have an hard time loading them since my student connection is really bad, but the videos of the shooting are quite easy to find online, according to the rate of fire on them, if you know weapons, you should be able to deduce whether they're automatic or not. Some sources I'm finding are saying the terrorists used AK47's. Which are obviously military weapons which are outright banned in France. The videos clearly sound like semi-automatic fire, which corroborates that. The AK47 is capable of both semi-automatic and fully automatic fire. Just checked some french armories online, AK variants are available if you have have been allowed to own one.
Meaning you need to sign up to a club, go shooting 3 times a year and ask your GP for a doctor's note. It's really not that hard. Probably anyone French of legal age on this forum could do it.
Again I am not saying those jihadists where shooting club members and used legally bought guns. Given their history I highly doubt it. But I hate this misinformation that they used "military grade" guns which are supposedly banned in France. It's simply false. The same thing happens again and again in Germany after guns are used in violent crime. The officials then tell us all is well because military weapons are banned anyway when in reality the shooting was committed with guns that are readily accessible for anyone with a license (and that licenses aren't really that hard to come by).
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I think this is just the beginning. More islamist attacks will happen. And more non-muslimic people will think that the Islam in general is dangerous, which will lead to more demonstrations against the Islam and maybe to attacks against muslims, too. With the arabic world in its current state and the western democracies slowly devolving, the 21st century might become something nobody would have thought of.
I hope I'm exaggerating. I hope I'm wrong.
But it looks grim.
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On January 08 2015 06:38 prplhz wrote:
to me it just seems like a huge overreaction to kill 12 people because you're upset about some drawings
according to danish media the french police know who the perpetrators are and where to find them and hopefully they'll get caught very soon
RIP 12 people at charlie
It seems ? :p
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France16890 Posts
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Apparently the terrorists have been identified because one of them forgot his ID card in the stolen car. Confirmed idiots.
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I wanted to requote myself because I would like to hear other's point of view regarding freedom of speech and blasphemy:
My opinion is that as long as it is not hate speech or an incitation to violence there is no problem about criticising any person. However we should be able to bash Religions and systems of ideas as harshly as we like.
I think that in the case of religion, putting it back to its place should be mandatory. It's a secular state, if people can't get used to have their own ideas challenged, these ideas should be trashed even more.
These sacro saint beliefs must not have any kind of impunity, it isn't up to a whole society, a whole country that has always fought for freedom of speech and secularism to change itself and go backwards.
I thought we were already behind this, behind the political correctness as regards to religion.
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My God...and Italy goes to take these people directly from the mediterranean..wonder how many terrorists in disguise arrived already
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Canada13378 Posts
On January 08 2015 07:00 Acertos wrote:
I wanted to requote myself because I would like to hear other's point of view regarding freedom of speech and blasphemy:
My opinion is that as long as it is not hate speech or an incitation to violence there is no problem about criticising any person. However we should be able to bash Religions and systems of ideas as harshly as we like.
I think that in the case of religion, putting it back to its place should be mandatory. It's a secular state, if people can't get used to have their own ideas challenged, these ideas should be trashed even more.
These sacro saint beliefs must not have any kind of impunity, it isn't up to a whole society, a whole country that has always fought for freedom of speech and secularism to change itself and go backwards.
I thought we were already behind this, behind the political correctness as regards to religion.
This thread isn't about that. Please do not keep trying to derail the thread with this comment.
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On January 08 2015 07:00 Boucot wrote:
Apparently the terrorists have been identified because one of them forgot his ID card in the stolen car. Confirmed idiots.
It is almost comical that is how they ID'd one of them considering most media I consumed today was discussing the proficient, calm manner in which the attack was executed. I cannot think of a way for them to get out of the way of Interpol now.
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On January 08 2015 07:04 SoSexy wrote:My God...and Italy goes to take these people directly from the mediterranean..wonder how many terrorists in disguise arrived already
Well, the terrorists aren't mostly coming in the west by that way, when Italy rescue people from the mediterranean sea, they mostly save hundreds of people, childrens...
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
it is much easier for potential terrorists who are "homegrown" to just smuggle their way across the Syrian-Turkish border and then get a flight to the country, whose nationality you already have...
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On January 08 2015 07:04 SoSexy wrote:My God...and Italy goes to take these people directly from the mediterranean..wonder how many terrorists in disguise arrived already
You really can't think too much like that, though I can't imagine this positively affecting EU immigration policy.
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On January 08 2015 05:28 -Zoda- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 05:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I hope they capture or kill these guys quickly before they murder anyone else.
This has been the case of Merah, another terrorist acting alone around 2 years ago iirc. He then became a martyr, a hero of radical islamism. So yeah i'd say no, I hope they are captured alive and judged as they should be. It's not Ben Laden's or Saddam Hussein's or Kadhafi's fucking execution. As of the potential other victims I'm not too concerned, their attack was very specifically aimed at the journal.
It isn't a revenge thing, it's a they're heavily armed and extremely dangerous thing. I want them stopped before they murder anyone else. If that means they have to be killed then that's what it means. If it doesn't I'm fine with that too as long as they're stopped.
On January 08 2015 07:11 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 07:04 SoSexy wrote:My God...and Italy goes to take these people directly from the mediterranean..wonder how many terrorists in disguise arrived already You really can't think too much like that, though I can't imagine this positively affecting EU immigration policy.
Infiltration through refugees and immigrants is something that has gone on for thousands of years, it is something that people very much should think about.
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EPT
