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On May 29 2017 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:Germany seems to be much more open about it's dissatisfaction with Trump than most other countries: Show nested quote +After summits with Trump, Merkel says Europe must take fate into own hands
Europe can no longer completely rely on its allies, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Sunday, pointing to bruising meetings of G7 wealthy nations and NATO last week.
Merkel did not mention by name U.S. President Donald Trump, who criticized major NATO allies and refused to endorse a global climate change accord, but she told a packed beer tent in Munich that the days when Europe could completely count on others were "over to a certain extent".
"I have experienced this in the last few days," she said. "And that is why I can only say that we Europeans must really take our fate into our own hands - of course in friendship with the United States of America, in friendship with Great Britain and as good neighbors wherever that is possible also with other countries, even with Russia."
"But we have to know that we must fight for our future on our own, for our destiny as Europeans," Merkel said.
The two-day G7 summit in Italy pitted Trump against the leaders of Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Canada and Japan on several issues, with European diplomats frustrated at having to revisit questions they had hoped were long settled.
The American tycoon-turned-president backed a pledge to fight protectionism at the end of the G7 summit on Saturday, but refused to endorse the climate pact, saying he needed more time to decide.
But EU Council President Donald Tusk said on Sunday he was more optimistic now than after the U.S. election last November after EU leaders held talks with Trump in Brussels. "What I am absolutely sure after this meeting is that despite some extraordinary ... expressions, behaviors, etc, etc, our partners in the G7 are much more responsible than the first impression after the election in the United States," Tusk said in the Slovak capital.
At the NATO summit on Thursday, Trump intensified his accusations that allies were not spending enough on defense and warned of more attacks such as this week's Manchester bombing unless the alliance did more to stop militants.
Turning to France, Merkel said she wished President Emmanuel Macron success, adding to applause: "Where Germany can help, Germany will help, because Germany can only do well if Europe is doing well."
France is Germany's second-biggest trading partner and the presidential election victory of the pro-European centrist reformer Macron over far-right protectionist rival Marine Le Pen in early May has sparked hopes that Berlin will ally with Paris in spearheading a broad-based economic revival in Europe. source: www.reuters.comDon't think I'm seeing that anywhere else as strongly. Also at the meeting itself or shortly afterwards, Merkel was the only one who straight up said she was disappointed and annoyed (or whatever it was) while iirc Macron in contrast was more on the postive side of things, highlighting that he was positively surprised in some aspects
oh I'm apparently fake news, just saw in the US thread that Macron did (somewhat) lash out as well by comparing Trump to Putin and Erdogan. Though from my first glance, technically speaking he never said that's a bad thing so only half fake news!
In the interview, Macron went on to compare Trump’s attitude to power with that of Russia’s Vladimir Putin and Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
“Donald Trump, the Turkish president or the Russian president believe in the logic of the trial of strength, which doesn’t bother me. I don’t believe in the diplomacy of public invective, but in my bilateral dialogues, I don’t let anything pass, that is how we are respected,” he said.
source: www.politico.eu
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On May 29 2017 01:33 warding wrote:
That's the beauty of the Trump presidency: uniting Europe and serving as an antidote against nationalist forces in the continent.
In the lingo of the Europhiles, if not so much in reality. The populist prognosis for 2017 was always quite poor, the only difference is that EUers are desperate to be able to claim victory.
Populism comes in waves. This trough was expected but with the self-awareness of pro-EU folk it will peak again within a year or two.
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On May 29 2017 01:36 Toadesstern wrote:
oh I'm apparently fake news, just saw in the US thread that Macron did (somewhat) lash out as well by comparing Trump to Putin and Erdogan. Though from my first glance, technically speaking he never said that's a bad thing so only half fake news!
But isn't their core quality that they manage to be liked at home?
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On May 29 2017 01:51 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 01:33 warding wrote:
That's the beauty of the Trump presidency: uniting Europe and serving as an antidote against nationalist forces in the continent. In the lingo of the Europhiles, if not so much in reality. The populist prognosis for 2017 was always quite poor, the only difference is that EUers are desperate to be able to claim victory. Populism comes in waves. This trough was expected but with the self-awareness of pro-EU folk it will peak again within a year or two.
that's some mighty hindsight 20/20 if I might say so
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On May 29 2017 01:53 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 01:51 LegalLord wrote:On May 29 2017 01:33 warding wrote:
That's the beauty of the Trump presidency: uniting Europe and serving as an antidote against nationalist forces in the continent. In the lingo of the Europhiles, if not so much in reality. The populist prognosis for 2017 was always quite poor, the only difference is that EUers are desperate to be able to claim victory. Populism comes in waves. This trough was expected but with the self-awareness of pro-EU folk it will peak again within a year or two. that's some mighty hindsight 20/20 if I might say so
Said the same things in 2016 too. Le Pen wasn't going to win (not without a last month rally that didn't happen), nor will AfD, and Wilders disappointed but his win would have been less consequential cuz coalitions. I always say 2017 as "the year of the aftermath of 2016 results" which is quite true.
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Labelling what you predicted as a progosis is quite the strech.
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On May 29 2017 02:19 Artisreal wrote:
Labelling what you predicted as a progosis is quite the strech.
Fair. But so are any claims of victory. This is mostly the expected result; more meaningful change is premature.
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I am absolutely fascinated that people still feel the need to respond to Legal's blabbering about how Europe is falling apart.
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Apparently the WannaCry malware was traced back to the South China area, possibly Taiwan or Hong Kong.
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On May 29 2017 04:01 opisska wrote:
I am absolutely fascinated that people still feel the need to respond to Legal's blabbering about how Europe is falling apart.
Europe will be fine. The EU is showing its cracks. I don't see how any of this is not just stating the obvious for the final few that need to see it.
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On May 29 2017 13:57 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 04:01 opisska wrote:
I am absolutely fascinated that people still feel the need to respond to Legal's blabbering about how Europe is falling apart. Europe will be fine. The EU is showing its cracks. I don't see how any of this is not just stating the obvious for the final few that need to see it.
Compared to the start of the US we are doing fabulously. Of course there are different problems than they had but it is still on a path more likely to succeed than they were at the start. We'll see how it turns out.
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On May 29 2017 14:03 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 13:57 Danglars wrote:On May 29 2017 04:01 opisska wrote:
I am absolutely fascinated that people still feel the need to respond to Legal's blabbering about how Europe is falling apart. Europe will be fine. The EU is showing its cracks. I don't see how any of this is not just stating the obvious for the final few that need to see it. Compared to the start of the US we are doing fabulously. Of course there are different problems than they had but it is still on a path more likely to succeed than they were at the start. We'll see how it turns out.
But the start of the US was perceived and known to be an absolute failure and a complete redo of the whole thing a decade later. and even then carried an obvious fault throughout the first hundred years until the civil war.
If the EU wants to learn anything from the US its that they need to be honest with all member states and themselves about what exactly the EU is or what its leading to ie a federation of euro states or just a unified trade/currency zone. One is going to require a war or two to grind out peoples ideas of independence and the other will cause it to be a continued puppet of the real world powers. I don't see anything thats really changed from the end of ww2. LL saying that the EU is failing is beacuse the idea that he has of what the EU is suppose to be is probably different then what the idea half the people in the EU have of what the EU is suppose to be.
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On May 29 2017 15:21 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 14:03 Yurie wrote:On May 29 2017 13:57 Danglars wrote:On May 29 2017 04:01 opisska wrote:
I am absolutely fascinated that people still feel the need to respond to Legal's blabbering about how Europe is falling apart. Europe will be fine. The EU is showing its cracks. I don't see how any of this is not just stating the obvious for the final few that need to see it. Compared to the start of the US we are doing fabulously. Of course there are different problems than they had but it is still on a path more likely to succeed than they were at the start. We'll see how it turns out. But the start of the US was perceived and known to be an absolute failure and a complete redo of the whole thing a decade later. and even then carried an obvious fault throughout the first hundred years until the civil war. If the EU wants to learn anything from the US its that they need to be honest with all member states and themselves about what exactly the EU is or what its leading to ie a federation of euro states or just a unified trade/currency zone. One is going to require a war or two to grind out peoples ideas of independence and the other will cause it to be a continued puppet of the real world powers. I don't see anything thats really changed from the end of ww2. LL saying that the EU is failing is beacuse the idea that he has of what the EU is suppose to be is probably different then what the idea half the people in the EU have of what the EU is suppose to be.
To be fair, people in Europe don't agree on what the EU is supposed to be either.
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How could they, "we" don't even agree with what our own countries should do.
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I just don't see these great problems of the EU in the day to day life. Even the British exited very narrowly and many leave voters admitted they were manipulated into it. Most of the supposed upheaval in EU is manufactured by populist parties to gain in domestic elections. I am not surprised that LL buys into it so much. Living outside the EU, he sees the overblown media picture which fits his pro Russian narrative so he accepts it. Meanwhile the integration continues to benefit the continent regardless of the constant verbal attacks on a gaming forum, to nobody's surprise.
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Funny. During the campaign, as soon as Mélenchon said that talking with Russia was necessary, regardless of what we thought of Putin's actions, some of the mainstream medias bashed him for being “complacent” and “fascinated by a dictator”. Now King Macron welcomes Putin in an emblematic royal location, rolling out the red carpet, and the same medias are licking him.
This press...
https://media1.giphy.com/media/wu29mJA7MXBzG/giphy.gif
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Media is biased, who knew
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On May 29 2017 20:11 opisska wrote:
I just don't see these great problems of the EU in the day to day life. Even the British exited very narrowly and many leave voters admitted they were manipulated into it. Most of the supposed upheaval in EU is manufactured by populist parties to gain in domestic elections. I am not surprised that LL buys into it so much. Living outside the EU, he sees the overblown media picture which fits his pro Russian narrative so he accepts it. Meanwhile the integration continues to benefit the continent regardless of the constant verbal attacks on a gaming forum, to nobody's surprise.
"No one I talk to complains about the EU. Obviously it's not so bad and everyone who disagrees just buys into a bad narrative that the evil media puts forward!"
Oh well. It might take a few years but reality will catch up.
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On May 29 2017 23:50 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2017 20:11 opisska wrote:
I just don't see these great problems of the EU in the day to day life. Even the British exited very narrowly and many leave voters admitted they were manipulated into it. Most of the supposed upheaval in EU is manufactured by populist parties to gain in domestic elections. I am not surprised that LL buys into it so much. Living outside the EU, he sees the overblown media picture which fits his pro Russian narrative so he accepts it. Meanwhile the integration continues to benefit the continent regardless of the constant verbal attacks on a gaming forum, to nobody's surprise. "No one I talk to complains about the EU. Obviously it's not so bad and everyone who disagrees just buys into a bad narrative that the evil media puts forward!" Oh well. It might take a few years but reality will catch up.
I've never said anything about "evil media". Of course the media play what they find catchy, "everything is peachy" isn't the best viewer magnet ... They also just report on what the populists create out of thin air.
I am just annoyed buy your constant repetition of substance-less anti-EU rhetoric. Even when we actually tried to discuss with you, you weren't able to support your disdain for the EU by anything but vague nationalism. Yet, you are still going on and on about it at any suitable occasion. So I have decided that everytime you shit up the thread with yet another empty stab at the EU, I will just counter with an equally pointless declaration how your are wrong. Sounds like a good deal.
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If you find some sort of fulfillment in "proving someone wrong" through pointless repetition of content-less one-liners, far be it from me to care, much less try to stop you. Not that any depth of content ever gets answered with more than that.
And a laugh is all that Merkel's delusional dismissal of the US, much less Britain, as "not allies of Europe", deserves. I guess they are a bit too happy that a pro-EU unprincipled demagogue managed to defeat the daughter of a fascist. I mean sure, the reverse would have been better, but Macron is almost worth it just to see how desperately the Europhiles laud him as something more than a "lesser evil" choice.
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EPT
