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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Oh, the good old "great white man syndrome". Teaching the uneducated and uncivilized wilds about the achievements of modern humankind. Repeating colonialism again?
How about you let people decide for themselves, what they want? What's wrong with people always feeling the need to look down on other societies and telling them that they are doing it wrong, and that they are just victims of their system?
This is not even just limited to Westerners vs Arabs. It can be seen rather often in this forums in EU vs US discussions, when both sides feel they would hold greatly superior values, it can be seen in discussions between "Freedom democrats" vs. "Strong Leadership for our nation" people. Also I was living for several years in Korea, and it is the same with Asians vs Westerners, and each side believing that the other side lacks modern values, is archaic and people are suppressed, have to be unhappy and just don't know about what shit they are in.
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On January 14 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 07:41 Nyxisto wrote:
What's weird about headscarfs is that people who aren't Muslims have somehow unilaterally decided that the headscarf is a symbol of oppression and thus must be removed, legally or culturally, from the public sphere. I think the fact that plenty of emancipated and educated Muslim women chose to wear one should basically put a stop to the discussion. How do you really measure emancipation really ? Because it's certainly not through education. Many women support the system that dominate them, don't let it fool you. Now the scarf is one thing, the burqa is another. But yeah sure.
I think in terms of gender emancipation I guess family structure is an important indicator. If a woman has a good job, lives on her own, and is not dependent on anybody else I consider her to be emancipated no matter if she wears a headscarf or not. I also think education plays an important role in emancipation, without education you can't organize your own life after all.
Education is also pretty much the first thing people go after who want to push a group into dependency.
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On January 14 2016 08:28 mahrgell wrote:
Oh, the good old "great white man syndrome". Teaching the uneducated and uncivilized wilds about the achievements of modern humankind. Repeating colonialism again?
How about you let people decide for themselves, what they want? What's wrong with people always feeling the need to look down on other societies and telling them that they are doing it wrong, and that they are just victims of their system?
This is not even just limited to Westerners vs Arabs. It can be seen rather often in this forums in EU vs US discussions, when both sides feel they would hold greatly superior values, it can be seen in discussions between "Freedom democrats" vs. "Strong Leadership for our nation" people. Also I was living for several years in Korea, and it is the same with Asians vs Westerners, and each side believing that the other side lacks modern values, is archaic and people are suppressed, have to be unhappy and just don't know about what shit they are in.
You can defend the value you want, the history is history. When you go into some neighborhood and see that most women wear the scarf, in a country with less than 10 % muslim, it's obvious to consider that some kind of social pressure is at play.
This idea that emancipated women wear the scarf is kinda boring. Some people wear it for religious reasons, just like nuns used to wear their outfit for religious reasons, and good for them. Aside from that, when you have a 8 to 15 year old kid with a veil, or women with the burqa like it's becoming the custom in some neighborhood, don't go there and tell me that it's old colonialism and shit. My father was born in an ex colony, his father fighting for independance, he doesn't give a shit about it anymore and I don't give two shit about it. It's history and it is irrelevant : we're talking about french in france, not some people from outside who need to be defended from the big bad white man.
And can we not try to make it seem like the veil is just another outfit ? It is designed to cut communication, to hide yourself to others. The veil in itself is not really a problem, but when it go as far as the burqa, don't make me laugh. There are many type of scarf, some are clearly designed to restrict women social interactions to zero and yes that is a problem to me.
On January 14 2016 08:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 08:04 WhiteDog wrote:On January 14 2016 07:41 Nyxisto wrote:
What's weird about headscarfs is that people who aren't Muslims have somehow unilaterally decided that the headscarf is a symbol of oppression and thus must be removed, legally or culturally, from the public sphere. I think the fact that plenty of emancipated and educated Muslim women chose to wear one should basically put a stop to the discussion. How do you really measure emancipation really ? Because it's certainly not through education. Many women support the system that dominate them, don't let it fool you. Now the scarf is one thing, the burqa is another. But yeah sure. I think in terms of gender emancipation I guess family structure is an important indicator. If a woman has a good job, lives on her own, and is not dependent on anybody else I consider her to be emancipated no matter if she wears a headscarf or not. I also think education plays an important role in emancipation, without education you can't organize your own life after all. Education is also pretty much the first thing people go after who want to push a group into dependency.
I saw more emancipated people in the proletariat than in any other class. Education is worthless from this point of view imo.
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Can you give a definition of emancipation then, because traditional family roles with women in dependency are probably more common among the lower social strata than anywhere else.
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On January 14 2016 09:31 Nyxisto wrote:
Can you give a definition of emancipation then, because traditional family roles are probably more common among the lower social strata than anywhere else.
Do you have any evidence to back that claim up?
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On January 14 2016 09:33 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 09:31 Nyxisto wrote:
Can you give a definition of emancipation then, because traditional family roles are probably more common among the lower social strata than anywhere else. Do you have any evidence to back that claim up?
Well I don't have a study at hand or anything but the wage gap is considerably larger among working class men and women than among their higher educated peers. Birth rates are also higher if I'm not mistaken which probably also means that women on the lower and of the social ladder are occupying traditional family roles.
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On January 14 2016 09:02 WhiteDog wrote:
And can we not try to make it seem like the veil is just another outfit ? It is designed to cut communication, to hide yourself to others. The veil in itself is not really a problem, but when it go as far as the burqa, don't make me laugh. There are many type of scarf, some are clearly designed to restrict women social interactions to zero and yes that is a problem to me.
I'm truely sorry that not everyone wants social interactions with you. This must be very hard for you.
But living in a free country, you will have to accept that some people may choose so.
By the values usually accepted in Europe we have to guarantee every Human being the choice and selfdetermination to pick for themselves. There are quite some issues in the Arab community about that, but as long as they want to live in Europe, they will have to bow to those European ideas of selfdetermination. (And this is obviously an issue for many)
But you are as well overshooting it.
Iif they still, after having the choice, pick that they want to wear scarf/veil or Burqa... it is their damn choice. And yes, I actually met couples with her insisting on the Burqa, and having well explained reasons why they prefer it that way. (that were to my surprise actually not even based on religion) I don't have to share those ideas, but I can accept that those may be reasons for the women to act like they did.
ps: The precentage of freewill burqas is most likely much lower than then number of free will scarfs or veils  So I can see why you ylways try to drag the conversation back to the burqa. But above applies much more to scarfs/veils than burqas, evne though in the end it is the same story. Try to guarantee free choice, but why on earth would you ban/condemn it?
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On January 14 2016 09:31 Nyxisto wrote:
Can you give a definition of emancipation then, because traditional family roles with women in dependency are probably more common among the lower social strata than anywhere else.
Problem is that to me the term emancipation in France heavily linked to the revolution and proletariat - there were many journals named the emancipation for exemple.
As you say, women in the bourgeoisie earn more, but it is often the case because they hire other women to clean the house and do the laundry, something the under class cannot. I'm not sure it is a good way to measure the emancipation.
On January 14 2016 09:45 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 09:02 WhiteDog wrote:
And can we not try to make it seem like the veil is just another outfit ? It is designed to cut communication, to hide yourself to others. The veil in itself is not really a problem, but when it go as far as the burqa, don't make me laugh. There are many type of scarf, some are clearly designed to restrict women social interactions to zero and yes that is a problem to me.
I'm truely sorry that not everyone wants social interactions with you. This must be very hard for you. But living in a free country, you will have to accept that some people may choose so. By the values usually accepted in Europe we have to guarantee every Human being the choice and selfdetermination to pick for themselves. There are quite some issues in the Arab community about that, but as long as they want to live in Europe, they will have to bow to those European ideas of selfdetermination. (And this is obviously an issue for many) But you are as well overshooting it. Iif they still, after having the choice, pick that they want to wear scarf/veil or Burqa... it is their damn choice. And yes, I actually met couples with her insisting on the Burqa, and having well explained reasons why they prefer it that way. (that were to my surprise actually not even based on religion) I don't have to share those ideas, but I can accept that those may be reasons for the women to act like they did.
It's not me, it's everyone. By the values of what ? Isn't that white man values ? lol
If the muslims don't want to have any interactions with people outside of fonctional interactions or familly interactions, then there are no possibility to share anything, and they're not really emancipated. They secluded in their own groups, how is that emancipation I wonder and more than that how can they be part of any nation if they refuse to interact with any of its members.
And France is not resumed to your idea of self determination : what about equality ? Not to mention emancipation largely built itself against the church and the famillial ties. Somehow you manage to mobilize this idea of self determination to defend a practice that consist in reducing the interaction women have to its bear minimum : the familly and people of their own group. Ok
Just saw your PS then I don't know why you even respond to me : the veil is not banned and nobody want to ban it. I am talking about the burqa clearly, which is banned in France.
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You were talking about France, and living in France, one can generally assume those "white man values" to be the common and fundamental idea of the nation.
And if it is a selfdetermined decision to not have certain interactions outside of their friend- and family circle, it is their good right to do so. But I guess you want to force them all to "share and exchange".
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On January 14 2016 10:05 mahrgell wrote:
You were talking about France, and living in France, one can generally assume those "white man values" to be the common and fundamental idea of the nation.
And if it is a selfdetermined decision to not have certain interactions outside of their friend- and family circle, it is their good right to do so. But I guess you want to force them all to "share and exchange".
Yes if they don't want to be part of the collective they should not live in France. Clearly.
That work for rich who don't pay their taxes too.
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Funny how some people (like mahrgell) speaks shit about the same system that is allowing them to have a different opinion and write it on the internet. You might not get so lucky doing that in some other cultures.
If you do not want foreigners to integrate because our values are shit, you might seriously consider moving in some area of the world where our 'colonialist, modern mankind' that you despise so much can't reach you.
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Oh, France is now some modern social community where everyone has to talk to everyone? This is now a national duty like paying taxes. I see. Then I consider myself lucky not living there.
I prefer the interpretation of "live and let live".
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On January 14 2016 10:10 SoSexy wrote:
Funny how some people (like mahrgell) speaks shit about the same system that is allowing them to have a different opinion and write it on the internet. You might not get so lucky doing that in some other cultures.
If you do not want foreigners to integrate because our values are shit, you might seriously consider moving in some area of the world where our 'colonialist, modern mankind' that you despise so much can't reach you.
I actually praised our values and system and wondered why some feel like restricting its universalness and limit the rights stemming from it to certain groups.
I'm far from despising them and very happy (and considering mysel lucky) to live in Germany.
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French share more than papers and laws yes. Like any other nations I might add. We built up institutions, social security, infrastructure on this national solidarity, what happen when groups decide to seclude themselves and do their own thing ?
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On January 14 2016 10:16 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 10:10 SoSexy wrote:
Funny how some people (like mahrgell) speaks shit about the same system that is allowing them to have a different opinion and write it on the internet. You might not get so lucky doing that in some other cultures.
If you do not want foreigners to integrate because our values are shit, you might seriously consider moving in some area of the world where our 'colonialist, modern mankind' that you despise so much can't reach you. I actually praised our values and system and wondered why some feel like restricting its universalness and limit the rights stemming from it to certain groups. I'm far from despising them and very happy (and considering mysel lucky) to live in Germany.
We are not restricting anything - we are simply asking that if you come to my country, you should respect its laws first and foremost. If you don't (I'm using 'you' as figurative), you are free to go.
The moment someone comes into your house and says 'hey these paintings are crap, you must throw them in the trash and buy the same I have' will create problems. I don't understand how people can't see this problem.
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On January 14 2016 10:21 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 10:16 mahrgell wrote:On January 14 2016 10:10 SoSexy wrote:
Funny how some people (like mahrgell) speaks shit about the same system that is allowing them to have a different opinion and write it on the internet. You might not get so lucky doing that in some other cultures.
If you do not want foreigners to integrate because our values are shit, you might seriously consider moving in some area of the world where our 'colonialist, modern mankind' that you despise so much can't reach you. I actually praised our values and system and wondered why some feel like restricting its universalness and limit the rights stemming from it to certain groups. I'm far from despising them and very happy (and considering mysel lucky) to live in Germany. We are not restricting anything - we are simply asking that if you come to my country, you should respect its laws first and foremost. If you don't (I'm using 'you' as figurative), you are free to go. The moment someone comes into your house and says 'hey these paintings are crap, you must throw them in the trash and buy the same I have' will create problems. I don't understand how people can't see this problem.
That's great, I can agree on everything you said :D (This is probably a first)
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On January 13 2016 23:59 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 22:15 kornetka wrote:The European Commission has opened an unprecedented inquiry into whether new Polish laws break EU democracy rules.
The step comes after President Andrzej Duda approved controversial laws enabling the conservative Law and Justice (PiS) government to appoint the heads of public TV and radio, and choose judges for Poland's constitutional court.
Addressing the Polish parliament on Wednesday, Prime Minister Beata Szydlo denied that her government had violated democratic norms. www.bbc.com Regarding the recent changes to public media, I am wondering whether the EU/German politicians criticizing them are aware of how things worked heretofore and of various abuses of the PO-PSL coalition regarding media and free speech (some examples in the quote below). Because as far as I can tell, the changes come down to the fact that previously the heads of public TV and radio were nominated by the government by proxy and now they are going to be nominated directly. When PO-PSL took over, they carried out a thorough cleansing of public media. Public TV and radio under their control were hardly objective, with some channels and journalists being blatantly biased. It did not seem to bother the EU at all. + Show Spoiler [Polish Minister of Justice, Zbigniew Z…] +
Dear Commissioner,
I do not have the habit of responding to unwise comments about Poland coming from foreign politicians, because they are telling about them. However I was provoked by what you didn't tell, and what I expected from you - as from commissionaire.
Public opinion in Germany, and also in Poland, was shocked by mass sexual attacks on females, which happened during NYE in German cities. Events which raise concern, also about safety of Polish people staying in Germany, were hidden for few days by German media. Former German Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich even called it "the cartel of silence". Censoring of this information by the German media dumbfounded public opinion in the world. I waited in vain for a strong reaction from you at such a flagrant violation of citizens' right to information. I came to the unpleasant conclusion that it's easier for you to talk about fictitious threats to media freedom in other countries, rather than condemn censorship in your own homeland.
Mr Oettinger,
a week ago, in an interview for "Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung" you criticized actions of democratically elected Polish parliament and government, which is going to restore the objectivity and independence of the public media in Poland. You demanded to put Poland under supervision.
This kind of words, spoken by a German politician have worst connotations among Poles. Also, me. I am the grandson of a Polish officer who, during World War II fought in the underground Home Army with the "German supervision."
Dear Commissioner,
where you have been when in June 2014. agents of special forces stormed the editorial office of one of the biggest weeklies in Poland "Wprost" and tried to tore from its editor-in-chief, his laptop with recordings compromising the previous government, headed by the current head of European Council - Donald Tusk?! In your own country, similar assault of editorial office, of the weekly "Der Spiegel" in 1962 was a huge scandal and led to the collapse of the government.
Why escaped your mind the fact, which was covered by all Polish media, that more than 80 Polish journalists and lawyers who dealt with the matter of this compromising tapes, were bugged?! The secret services have used undercover operatives for surveillance of independent media.
Will you find an excuse for dismissing of half thousand employees, of the Polish Television, and forcing them to work in the outer company, in humiliating conditions, which happened during a reign of PO-PSL?! These parties are still your coalition partners, in the EPP Group, in the European Parliament. An introduction to the mass purges in public television was the removing of several dozen independent journalists, shortly after previous government took the power.
How do you assess the fact that the previous government, caused the dismissal of the editor-in-chief and journalists of the independent, influential, daily newspaper "Rzeczpospolita" and weekly "Uważam Rze"? Most of the shares that government had of those companies, was passed into the hands of the friendly businessman. Dismissals were a consequence of a single article, which put into question the government investigation of plane crash in Smolensk, which killed Polish President coming from the opposite political camp.
Why are you silent when the German-Swiss publisher Ringier Axel Springer, owner of several media in Poland, including "Newsweek", in a dramatic way denies press independence, and openly supports protests aimed against democratically elected Polish parliament and government?! The authorities of this foreign company approved the behavior of the chief editor of "Newsweek" Tomasz Lis, who came out of the role of a journalist, and during street demonstrations fueled anti-government speech. Would you be silent if the head of the largest German weekly "Der Spiegel" Klaus Brinkbäumer demonstrated in the center of Berlin, demanding the removal, by mass protests, the government of Angela Merkel?!
Dear Commissioner,
in your country, Germany, there is a saying: "cuius regions - eius radio," which means "who have power - have a radio" It boils down to a simple principle that heads of public radio and television are appointed by politicians currently exercising power. The Media Act, which being worked on by Polish government, provides a much more democratic solution. It assumes that the National Media Council will be elected by the president and both houses of parliament.
I don't have your impudence to teach Germans that they should adopt similar principles. I will not call for lowering German flag on masts after NYE attacks, like you proposed with EU flags in countries that are indebted in Germany.
Please - be more restrained, and objective - for the seriousness of your office.
Yours faithfully, Zbigniew Ziobro
The emphasis is mine. Source (the translation appears unofficial, as there are some grammatical errors etc.): https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/408an8/open_letter_from_polish_minister_of_justice_to_ue/
Why you are trying to downgrade what just happened? From 28 countries in EU this happens to Poland. Ziobro focuses so hard on national media, when lets be honest, is not the main thing here.
The night legislation in Sejm, the speed and TIMES (night shifts anyone) at which enactments are pushed. The absolute ignorance of lawyers oppinions when it came to Constitutional Tribunal, the fact that country is basicly ruled at the moment by a old man who dosn't take any constitutional responsibility. This is first time ever i have this disgusting feeling that my Prime Minster and President are nothing more than puppets. It was bad first time with Marcinkiewicz, now it's just hillarious.
That emotional bullshit from Ziobro you just quoted is all that is, emotional bullshit. I hope sanctions don't hit Poland and i hope PiS realizes that it needs to function by rules set by EU (as we are in EU and befefit from that) and most important like a democratic country, not Belorus.
EU representatives also needs to shut the fuck and think few times before they sprout moronics like "putinzation of europpean politics". Yes Schultz, it dosn't hurt to use brain a bit before opening mouth.
Instead of focusing on stopping the Nord Stream 2 now, Poland is now the target of investigation. That will greatly incrase our importance in EU and our political strenght. Great job PiS, took you 2 months.
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On January 14 2016 10:21 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2016 10:16 mahrgell wrote:On January 14 2016 10:10 SoSexy wrote:
Funny how some people (like mahrgell) speaks shit about the same system that is allowing them to have a different opinion and write it on the internet. You might not get so lucky doing that in some other cultures.
If you do not want foreigners to integrate because our values are shit, you might seriously consider moving in some area of the world where our 'colonialist, modern mankind' that you despise so much can't reach you. I actually praised our values and system and wondered why some feel like restricting its universalness and limit the rights stemming from it to certain groups. I'm far from despising them and very happy (and considering mysel lucky) to live in Germany. We are not restricting anything - we are simply asking that if you come to my country, you should respect its laws first and foremost. If you don't (I'm using 'you' as figurative), you are free to go. The moment someone comes into your house and says 'hey these paintings are crap, you must throw them in the trash and buy the same I have' will create problems. I don't understand how people can't see this problem.
The thing is, we're talking about a minority within a minority, a real small part of the immigration (I think the burqa is a good exemple, in France it's what 250 people when the law to ban it was voted). By stressing so much about that very small minority that create a real problem, the risk is to stigmatise the entire muslim group and create exactly what you try to prevent by making them believe they are second class citizens.
It's counter intuitive, by saying "muslims should respect the law of the republic" we in part participate in creating a feeling that the state discriminate this specific population.
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@Narw - you are seeing it to much as a right/wrong, good/evil fight.
roughly, the same thing happened in Romania too(except the suing). for bout 6-8 years we've been having either a left wing government and a right wing president or a left wing president and a right wing government.
since we had more right orientated governments since our revolution, the right ended up controlling most of the public institutions - BCR(national bank), state TV/journals, CSJ/ICCJ(romanian justice courts).
now, when the left came to power they tried to change all of those. thing is, they failed here (for pragmatic reasons mostly: when they tried to change the BCR governor our national currency started going all over the place so in the end business won over politics; as for the judges, they didn't have enough political/international back up to do more than bark at said judges) but that is a normal power struggle.
the left can not actively rule without having the actual power so they do what they can to get it.
if you think you had freedom and democracy and constitutionality and now you don't, then you need to wake up. it has always been a we vs them(in this case left vs right) power struggle, in every aspect of life.
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Point to me at which moment i suggested we don't have freedom or democracy here. I even called Schultz comment that implies that bullshit.
We still of course have freedom and democracy, and there are of course power struggles. I don't really care about our national media, i don't watch em and i think no one should ever listen to em - they are political tube since communism failed. Everytime new government is elected. politicians try to take control of media. Sometimes they succed. sometimes not.
The thing that is woriesome is speed at which new enactments are set and that they basicly cheated on elections by hiding few of the freaks.
Our Defence Minister is batshit crazy, he should't be allowed to play with toy soldiers, let alone be in charge of army of one of NATO countries that shares border with Russia. And in charge of all this is old traumatized man who sees enemies everywhere and dosn't understand that Poland dosn't exists in vacum and there need to be compromises made for it to efficiently function.
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EPT
