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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland.
He gets paid per comment. 30 rubles today buys a lot less than they did in March so what can he do, he has to eat too. TL should really send a care package to zeo.
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On December 06 2014 03:42 Dapper_Cad wrote:
Wow, this thread is worrying.
So you're all aware that European immigration is largely the result of the penury that the international financial system keeps great swathes of humanity in right? You're all aware that it's a British/U.S. lead system which keeps vast flows of illicit finance invisible to scrutiny and that in that melting pot of dirty money you've got cash garnered from tax avoidance, corruption and criminal activity which is financing wars, terrorism and the subversion of Democracy right?
That while Britain and the U.S. have the lions share of "secrecy jurisdictions" -territories whose state structures are captured by financial capital- that European territories such Luxembourg, Switzerland, Holland and Ireland are increasingly acting in the same way?
You're all aware that inequality is increasing at an incredible rate within the boarders of countries world wide as tiny percentages of populations play by a different set of rules from everyone else, avoiding costs or shifting them to others, reaping profits stolen from a shrinking middle class?
That this inequality is resulting in angry populations, populations which have to deal with the fallout of this theft, whose anger is being misdirected at minorities and refugees by a press which is failing in it's function to report a rational narrative as the only rational narrative results in that anger being directed at their customers and owners: International Corporations?
I mean, you're not actually reading Newspapers and taking them at face value are you?
Lets explore this:
Is the implication of your series of rhetorical question that at some point in the past there was less European immigration and penury? If thats true would you care to name a time period we can reference where things were better re inequality, anger and so forth? Are you aware that global inequality has declined, how does that fit into your world view?
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On December 06 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania). I also thought gypsies were just Romanians at some point, probably doesnt help that Romania has I think the highest concentration of them in Europe no? Plus, you look the most like them too. Bulgarians just look like Turks
wrong on all counts
random
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Protest_15_septembrie_Pia%C8%9Ba_Universit%C4%83%C8%9Bii_bgiu.jpg)
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On December 06 2014 06:35 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote:On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania). I also thought gypsies were just Romanians at some point, probably doesnt help that Romania has I think the highest concentration of them in Europe no? Plus, you look the most like them too. Bulgarians just look like Turks wrong on all counts random + Show Spoiler + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
I am genuinely surprised, Bulgaria does have more Roma. But that picture, yea...actually thats the imagine that comes up to mind when I think of Roma. Vaguely Indian-Italian kind of mix.
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On December 06 2014 03:50 nunez wrote:
sense and sensibility from dapper!
yeah.
some dapper posting one might say. preaching to the choir chap, preaching to the choir.
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Few people in this thread said that young Spanish people prefer to migrate to Germany instead of looking for a job in Spain. Can anyone explain why they are choosing Germany and not UK like most of Eastern European immigrants?
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On December 06 2014 08:09 Sent. wrote:
Few people in this thread said that young Spanish people prefer to migrate to Germany instead of looking for a job in Spain. Can anyone explain why they are choosing Germany and not UK like most of Eastern European immigrants?
Because Germany (this name is dumb, we'll have to tell it to anglosaxons one day or another...) or Deutchland for normal brains, offers jobs, not slavery.
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german companies want foreigners to come here and work so they can push down the wages. I dont even blame people who come here to germany because they cant find work anywhere else, I blame our companies and government who made it possible that companies can cut wages this way.
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On December 06 2014 10:04 Skilledblob wrote:
german companies want foreigners to come here and work so they can push down the wages. I dont even blame people who come here to germany because they cant find work anywhere else, I blame our companies and government who made it possible that companies can cut wages this way.
Are the wages not pushed down be Hertz reforms that turned full time, union protected jobs into more mini-job temp worker style ?
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that's another factor yes. With the Hartz 4 reforms to our social security system and job system coupled with the opening of our finance market to hedge funds and similar things, the SPD under Schröder managed to set the whole mess that we have now in motion.
on paper germany has 3 million people without a job. Which sounds good but these 3 million do not count the over 1 million people that are in forced reeducation seminars, it does not count the millions of people in germany that nominally have a job but earn so little money with it that the government has to give them money so they even make it to 800€ per month. It does also not count the people who are already out of the Hartz4 system and are pretty much sitting on the streets now.
at the same time the retirements have been cut so that at least 30-40% of people who retire in 30 years will be in danger of poverty.
but yes the sheeple keep voting for the same shitty parties every time.
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
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skilledblob, dont forget that
*people that are permanent not able to work count as sick, not as unemployed.
*over 1 million is in school and do not count as unemployed.
* people that live on minimum wage and have just a part time job or that have a job that does not provide enough money to live (and i mean live) do not count as unemployed. ofc they get help from the city but they do not count even if they are the stupid ones that try to work for well nothing
* older people do not count as unemployed (over 58 thats around 200k)
and some other bullshit.
we have still have the same amount of unemployment. they just worked hard on the statistics to make it sound lower. Nothing changed.
Well in the end its kind of normal, states get rich others are poor. others get rich old get poor. we are just doomed because we are born 50 years to late ^^
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people move to the UK for work as a lifestyle thing. They go to 'Power & Light' Inc, live & work there for a time & then go elsewhere. My parents went abroad to the EU & were able to study in University, free (they took an entrance exam like the ACT/SAT & qualified for it of course). They used that education in their subsequent work career. UK is still an E.U. nation so it's pretty easy to move around inside the E.U. Passports match, medical care is a flat rate for ~91% of the things people encounter (broken arm, dental work, etc) so health is not an issue. I think it was like 20e or 50e for a tooth filling. Not bad. And it is exotic for other E.U. people because they speak English in the UK & they can practice that. But not too exotic like Africa, which I am against. My girlfriend, who goes to the same church as me, I met through mutual friends at a party in Finland. She went abroad for a semester inside the EU protectorate. A lot of people my age pair up with people they work alongside in an office (Aww).
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thats the same in many other countries in EU. its not likely to have a broken arm and not be able to get help like in the land of the free. but you make it sound like you dont have to be a part of the system in first place. you will get help yes but its not like "hey i showed up welcome to healthcare" you have to pay in too
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On the topic of the Schröder reforms, supposedly Grüne and Die Linke were both in a coalition with the SPD at the time, but did both of those parties need to approve the reforms too?
I thought someone here said Grüne did...but they didn't specifically mention Die Linke doing so despite it being said (I think) that they were part of the coalition.
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Linke didn't exist at that point in time, Schröder ruled 1998-2005 with an SPD-Greens Koalition. Neither PDS nor WASG was in the Bundestag at that point in time. Die Linke later formed in 2007 from PDS and WASG.
Thus, the Greens have also carried all of the Schröder shit, since that was part of their coalition plans.
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On December 06 2014 17:14 Simberto wrote:
Thus, the Greens have also carried all of the Schröder shit, since that was part of their coalition plans. Hence the general public notion that all the major parties (excluding the Left) are basically the same, or more politely: "they tend to gravitate towards the middle of the spectrum". 
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On December 06 2014 09:34 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 08:09 Sent. wrote:
Few people in this thread said that young Spanish people prefer to migrate to Germany instead of looking for a job in Spain. Can anyone explain why they are choosing Germany and not UK like most of Eastern European immigrants? Because Germany (this name is dumb, we'll have to tell it to anglosaxons one day or another...) or Deutchland for normal brains, offers jobs, not slavery.
Ever heard of minijobs? That's as close to slavery as it can get in Europe.
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Yeah, thanks for that, I've previously read the wikipedia pages and some journalistic articles about the events and about Die Linke and their roots and somehow those facts Simberto listed didn't click. 
I guess voters would feel that "at least CDU/CSU don't completely betray their voter base, so maybe we can trust them more! The more honest of two similar parties!"
OK, so back to Moldova: The elections happened, results are in, that page says there's no prime minister yet and we have
- Socialists - 20.51%, 25 Seats (New)
- Liberal Democrats - 20.16%, 23 Seats (-9)
- Communists - 17.48%, 21 Seats (-21)
- Democrats - 15.80%, 19 Seats (+4)
- Liberals - 9.67%, 13 Seats (+1)
I thought someone mentioned the Socialists and Communists were both pro Russia, anti EU and the other three were pro EU and that the election outcome could decide which way Moldova leans and what happens to Transnistria, which would suggest, if true, that we'd have 25+21 (46) vs 23+19+13 (55), in favour of the pro-EU group.
Does the fact that the socialists have the most of any party mean they are more likely to be able to govern, but they have to choose their own coalition? Could they choose to govern with the Communists, or do they need to have over 50% of seats in their Coalition or alternatively, will it need to be a coalition of the other three?
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The development of Die Grüne as a whole is strikingly mirrored in the deleopment of Joschka Fischer. In fact, their change from radical to establishment was directly proportonial to the value of his suits.
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EPT
