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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
The problem with immigration, being north african or anything else, is that we are not supposed to emmigrate. We feel, normally, a strong tie to our land, a feeling of belonging. Every people who emmigrate that I've talked to explain that they were kinda forced to, because of an economic crisis or a political crisis (war, etc.). Only a small minority migrate just because they feel like it.
People from north africa do not come because they want to be rich in europe, they come in europe because their country is in shamble. Just like spanish youngster now migrate to germany because they are unable to find job in spain. If we had a better development, more respectful of the people and less stupidly biased towards some country's well being, like we are right now, then migration would not be the same at all.
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On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily.
No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that.
In short what polish right have against various people.
Germans: wars, partitions.
Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy
Turkish: religion
Arab: religion, culture
The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either.
PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments.
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Ok, i guess i have some selection bias here, as i mostly know people who are in Germany, and if you don't like Germans you probably won't be here a lot.
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And even if You are there a lot no reason to brag about it, dont You think? Still the sentiments towards the Germans is eroding while towards russians and arabs is rising (i dont have data to suport this, its just my perception).
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On December 05 2014 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:Sorry. but "Asian people are so industrious and black people don't really like education" really is borderline racist no matter how hard you try to veil it. It's a terrible stereotype. Show nested quote + Traditionally, education plays a very important part in their lives, so learning the language of the country to reside in is a de facto requirement. This for example, is just wrong. I live near the biggest Japanese community in Germany and virtually no one of them speaks a single word of German. They have their own Japanese kindergartens, schools and stores. No one actually cares because when they immigrated here they were already pretty wealthy and the aforementioned stereotype helps. But if you hear one person speak Turkish on the subway every white person has the "what has this country come to" look on their faces.
North Africans are not black, they are white in fact (brown in actual color, but as far as races go, they are white). And his post did not paint them in really negative light, just that their cultural values are somewhat incompatible with western one. It might be somewhat simplistic (which he actually noted at the start), but I think there is a grain of truth in his post. Specifically that there are differences between different immigrants and there are statistically significant differences between immigrants from different regions that cannot be explained purely as a result of economic standing in the society.
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On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments.
The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years.
Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round.
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On December 05 2014 03:11 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 02:57 Nyxisto wrote:
There is nothing wrong with generalizations if they point to some genuine problem in a way. The problem is that the stereotypes that are being repeated are flatout wrong and politically motivated. There are many groups of immigrants that are not very well integrated, the Japanese here in Germany I mentioned for example. The fact that no one has a problem with that goes to show that this is not really about the level of integration. It's about not liking a very specific culture, often Muslim culture. And although Muslim communities have some very real problems that I have also mentioned already, right wing European populists blow the problems out of proportion and exploit small minorities.
Saying that many native Germans look down on Turkish immigrants is a generalization, but it's also true. Saying that Malmö is currently run under Shariah Law is nothing but populism. It cannot be "Muslim culture" either, American Muslims or Canadian Muslims are well integrated and quite successful here. Pakistani and Bangladashi Americans make the most of all immigrant groups -- including the Belgian guys beloved and highly industrious East Asians (who actually are less industrious than Filipino immigrants to America). The reality is, in the 50's and 60s Europe brought in a bunch of working class people, it didnt plan on keeping them and wanted them to leave. Instead of doing that a bunch of them had kids. Levels of religiosity of the first generation of immigrants were actually lower than their kids: if you Europeans didnt ghetoize them they'd probably be as assimilated as Muslims are in North America.
That is quite a probable explanation, though I think the ghetoization is not a one way street and I doubt it could have been avoided in any practical scenario.
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On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round.
I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland.
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On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland.
yea, it has nothing to do with politics.
here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner.
Ex:
- one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype;
- or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman
...and so on.
the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues).
vs germans we have nothing+ Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here
turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes.
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On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes.
I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies?
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On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies?
becaues you are neighbours.
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On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies?
well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania.
the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border.
(in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania).
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On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania).
When I was a lot younger I thought they were called Roma because they came from Romania. I think a big problem is that our countries don't really know how many gypsies actually live in them. Many, many of them are born and live out their lives without birth certificates, ID's or documents of any kind so its hard for the state to come up with plans.
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It seems gypsies are pretty big problem all over the bolkans. It wont end well.
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On December 06 2014 02:09 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania). When I was a lot younger I thought they were called Roma because they came from Romania. I think a big problem is that our countries don't really know how many gypsies actually live in them. Many, many of them are born and live out their lives without birth certificates, ID's or documents of any kind so its hard for the state to come up with plans.
They come from India actually ! But they took different routes throught europe : those that came through romania are called the roms (in french).
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Wow, this thread is worrying.
So you're all aware that European immigration is largely the result of the penury that the international financial system keeps great swathes of humanity in right? You're all aware that it's a British/U.S. lead system which keeps vast flows of illicit finance invisible to scrutiny and that in that melting pot of dirty money you've got cash garnered from tax avoidance, corruption and criminal activity which is financing wars, terrorism and the subversion of Democracy right?
That while Britain and the U.S. have the lions share of "secrecy jurisdictions" -territories whose state structures are captured by financial capital- that European territories such Luxembourg, Switzerland, Holland and Ireland are increasingly acting in the same way?
You're all aware that inequality is increasing at an incredible rate within the boarders of countries world wide as tiny percentages of populations play by a different set of rules from everyone else, avoiding costs or shifting them to others, reaping profits stolen from a shrinking middle class?
That this inequality is resulting in angry populations, populations which have to deal with the fallout of this theft, whose anger is being misdirected at minorities and refugees by a press which is failing in it's function to report a rational narrative as the only rational narrative results in that anger being directed at their customers and owners: International Corporations?
I mean, you're not actually reading Newspapers and taking them at face value are you?
On December 05 2014 20:44 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:Sorry. but "Asian people are so industrious and black people don't really like education" really is borderline racist no matter how hard you try to veil it. It's a terrible stereotype. Traditionally, education plays a very important part in their lives, so learning the language of the country to reside in is a de facto requirement. This for example, is just wrong. I live near the biggest Japanese community in Germany and virtually no one of them speaks a single word of German. They have their own Japanese kindergartens, schools and stores. No one actually cares because when they immigrated here they were already pretty wealthy and the aforementioned stereotype helps. But if you hear one person speak Turkish on the subway every white person has the "what has this country come to" look on their faces. North Africans are not black, they are white in fact (brown in actual color, but as far as races go, they are white). And his post did not paint them in really negative light, just that their cultural values are somewhat incompatible with western one. It might be somewhat simplistic (which he actually noted at the start), but I think there is a grain of truth in his post. Specifically that there are differences between different immigrants and there are statistically significant differences between immigrants from different regions that cannot be explained purely as a result of economic standing in the society.
Do you think you could expand a little on this? It's pretty confusing.
On November 24 2014 20:18 zeo wrote:Did anyone really believe that a thread started by 40sub would not devolve into Russia-bashing by page 4? About Farage: He is probably the most level headed, visionary politician in the British political scene today. It's just that UKIP needs a lot more people like him, while getting rid of the crazies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the whole world would feel much safer if Britain had an independent foreign policy. Love him or hate him 95% of the time he is right
He's a popular whipping boy in a Liberal press which I actually despise more than the traditional proprietor directed vitriol of the right. That doesn't mean he isn't a complete cunt.
Yes, an policy independent of the U.S. would be a good thing.
Yes, NATO expansion triggered the Ukraine crisis.
But Farage isn't really interested in that, he's pretty much identical to all the main British political parties in that he's a corporatist. His objection to integration into Europe is entirely about protecting the City of London from oversight and regulation with a side order of "increased competitiveness" for the British economy (see shredding workers rights). He's just in a position to more nakedly exploit racist tendencies being foisted onto the population by a popular press which has no other way to explain the position we find ourselves in that a. makes even vague sense and b. won't result in the withdrawal of capital from their coffers.
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sense and sensibility from dapper!
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On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania).
I also thought gypsies were just Romanians at some point, probably doesnt help that Romania has I think the highest concentration of them in Europe no? Plus, you look the most like them too. Bulgarians just look like Turks
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On December 06 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania). I also thought gypsies were just Romanians at some point, probably doesnt help that Romania has I think the highest concentration of them in Europe no? Plus, you look the most like them too. Bulgarians just look like Turks
are you retarded or something?
User was warned for this post
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On December 06 2014 04:08 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote:On December 06 2014 00:06 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 22:10 mdb wrote:On December 05 2014 22:00 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2014 21:11 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 20:45 zeo wrote:On December 05 2014 20:08 Silvanel wrote:On December 05 2014 18:43 Simberto wrote:
Well, they should also learn that Germans are the bad guys and killed their ancestors not even 80 years ago, and people seem to be able to get over that quite easily. No they are not. In Poland the sentiments towards the Russians and Germans are much stronger than towards Turks. And thats despite figthing numerous wars against Ottoman Empire, Golden Horde and various Khanates. Hell, Ottoman Empire was the only country strongly oposing partitioning of Poland and we havent forgot that. In short what polish right have against various people. Germans: wars, partitions. Russions: wars partitions, comunist times, current policy Turkish: religion Arab: religion, culture The sentiments towards the russians and germans are the strongest ones. I am not saying that Poland is welcoming to muslims, quite the oposite. But its not welcoming to russians or germans either. PS. Just for lulz i counted and Poland have fought 46 wars against Mongols, Golden Horde, Crimea Khanate and Ottomans. Not counting solo wars vs Principality of Moldavia which often included some muslim reinforcments. The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for centuries. Literally all of our modern national identities were forged in the struggle to kick the Ottomans out. Poland was never under their occupation, you were occupied by Nazi Germany, then as an independent country under the Soviet sphere of influence for 50 years. Which block you 'hate' more really depends on what nationalist politicians and populists pick as the flavor of the election cycle. One cycle might be 'Oh, Germany is bad our people have been in a titanic struggle since ancient times bla bla, they are out to get us' and when that gets old it becomes 'forget Germany, its the Soviet Union's fault things aren't perfect 25 years after communism. There is no SU so just blame Russia'. And the circle goes round and round. I am not making claims about Serbia, so please dont make stupid claims about Poland. yea, it has nothing to do with politics. here, we have these jokes or sayings that are passed on from generation to generation and people are taught (by example or peer pressure mostly) to react to them in a specific (to that family, group, community) manner. Ex: - one is supposed to laugh at <X> anti-semite joke so he ends up not only laughing at it but also ends up passing on that stereotype; - or we have scare tactics some mothers use on their kids: "if you don't behave i'll give you to/sell you to the gypsies" like they're boogieman ...and so on. the perception of romanians, from my pov, are strongly anti-gypsies(and occasionally we blame bulgarians for them) and anti-hungarians, so-so anti-russians (depends on the region here, in some places you just don't mess with mother Russia!) and anti-jewish (but, BUT they took 'ur business and/or money related issues). vs germans we have nothing + Show Spoiler +minorities that suffered at the hands of nazis are excluded here (we even had a short lived dynasty of german kings/princes from the House of Hohenzollern). turks and tatars remain the greater evil but mostly for historical purposes. I wonder why would you blame Bulgarians for the gypsies? well, it has something to do with their migration route: south-east Asia, south Asia, middle east, then through Turkey into Bulgaria and from there into Romania. the general idea is that bulgarians let them through so the gypsies should just go back across the border. (in a way it's similar to how the west is sending their gypsies back to Romania). I also thought gypsies were just Romanians at some point, probably doesnt help that Romania has I think the highest concentration of them in Europe no? Plus, you look the most like them too. Bulgarians just look like Turks are you retarded or something?
Its not my fault your ancestors were subjugated for 300 years by Turks and look near identical to them at this point.
Not to mention that your historical ancestors were a mixture of Slavs who lived in the Balkans, Thracians and actual Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars)
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EPT
