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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1118

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21961 Posts
June 05 2018 18:35 GMT
#22341
On June 06 2018 03:31 SoSexy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2018 03:28 TheDwf wrote:
By the way, is it true that your new Minister of Family said some homophobic stuff?


As far as I understood, I think he referred to the fact that in our Constitution there is no distinction between hetero and homosexual people. He precisely said 'gay families don't exist'. Public opinion interpreted in two ways: gays went crazy about this is Germany 1933 again, the others said that he simply stated what is written in the Constituion. You decide.
Surely the words you want to use are along the lines of "The constitution doesn't care about the makeup of your family" rather then "X does not exist".
A public servant should know better.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-05 18:40:25
June 05 2018 18:36 GMT
#22342
Plansix, I've also seen plenty of the opposite. Every political party blames the other. It has always been this way.

Edit: and after Conte's speech, the spread jumped to 236 points. In few minutes we will know the result of the Senate, which is voting the start of the government. Should be an easy 'yes' given the numbers.
Dating thread on TL LUL
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 05 2018 18:40 GMT
#22343
On June 06 2018 03:36 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I've also seen plenty of the opposite. Every political party blames the other. It has always been this way.

Populism isn’t a toggle that turns on or off. There are elements of populism in all politics. People called Obama a populist for his campaign about Hope and “Yes we can”. But the anti-immigrant and nationalist nature of the current wave is what is causing the populist label to stick.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
June 05 2018 18:42 GMT
#22344
On June 06 2018 03:40 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2018 03:36 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I've also seen plenty of the opposite. Every political party blames the other. It has always been this way.

Populism isn’t a toggle that turns on or off. There are elements of populism in all politics. People called Obama a populist for his campaign about Hope and “Yes we can”. But the anti-immigrant and nationalist nature of the current wave is what is causing the populist label to stick.


I think it is a blurred line. The last minister of internal affairs (Marco Minniti, from PD) enabled measures to control immigration that Salvini now said 'were quite a good step'. Never in my life I would have thought of hearing Salvini agreeing with a PD member. But one has been called populist, the other not. There's quite some hypocrisy in my opinion.
Dating thread on TL LUL
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
June 05 2018 18:42 GMT
#22345
The ruling class elites are governing for their own interest at the expense of the working public and average man. That’s the first and biggest foundation for whether this or that movement is populist. The immigration and rest may be common fellow travelers. Hell, maybe the country has an immigration problem that elites are ignoring! But this sounds like more slur than definition.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10811 Posts
June 05 2018 18:46 GMT
#22346
To be fair. Italy was/is pretty let down when it comes to the refugee/african immigration crysis by the EU.

Most other stuff? Ridiculous populist bullshit. I'm just waiting until a party runs on "more for everyone! And cheaper too!"
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 05 2018 18:46 GMT
#22347
On June 06 2018 03:42 SoSexy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2018 03:40 Plansix wrote:
On June 06 2018 03:36 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I've also seen plenty of the opposite. Every political party blames the other. It has always been this way.

Populism isn’t a toggle that turns on or off. There are elements of populism in all politics. People called Obama a populist for his campaign about Hope and “Yes we can”. But the anti-immigrant and nationalist nature of the current wave is what is causing the populist label to stick.


I think it is a blurred line. The last minister of internal affairs (Marco Minniti, from PD) enabled measures to control immigration that Salvini now said 'were quite a good step'. Never in my life I would have thought of hearing Salvini agreeing with a PD member. But one has been called populist, the other not. There's quite some hypocrisy in my opinion.

Regarding immigration, Salvini has also said: "Macron is partially doing what I intend to do."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 05 2018 18:50 GMT
#22348
On June 06 2018 03:42 SoSexy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2018 03:40 Plansix wrote:
On June 06 2018 03:36 SoSexy wrote:
Plansix, I've also seen plenty of the opposite. Every political party blames the other. It has always been this way.

Populism isn’t a toggle that turns on or off. There are elements of populism in all politics. People called Obama a populist for his campaign about Hope and “Yes we can”. But the anti-immigrant and nationalist nature of the current wave is what is causing the populist label to stick.


I think it is a blurred line. The last minister of internal affairs (Marco Minniti, from PD) enabled measures to control immigration that Salvini now said 'were quite a good step'. Never in my life I would have thought of hearing Salvini agreeing with a PD member. But one has been called populist, the other not. There's quite some hypocrisy in my opinion.

All politics is a blurred line. We label the harmful political parties after they have done the harm, not before. All of those parties seemed reasonable at the time they took power. Even in my country. The KKK was just a political group before it became what we know it to be today. That does not mean I am saying the current party in power is going to be this horrible, racist group that is going to hurt immigrant. Only that people have concerns with the language and rhetoric that is surrounding their rise to power. And dismissing those concerns as hypocrisy does little to calm people who see reflections of past mistakes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9250 Posts
June 05 2018 18:51 GMT
#22349
From certain perspective, the situation seems almost ideal for those populist baddies in Italy. They can be tough on immigration just like their supporters want it, their country will get more funds from the next EU budget (guess who's losing them) and the worst period of post crisis trouble is already over. They'll have to try really hard to mess this up. Or maybe not even that, they may just win by walk-over if their opponents from used-to-be-mainstream parties focus on total non-issues (in the eyes of average voter) like shaking Putin's hand or imaginary attempts to quit the EU.
You're now breathing manually
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21961 Posts
June 05 2018 19:00 GMT
#22350
On June 06 2018 03:51 Sent. wrote:
From certain perspective, the situation seems almost ideal for those populist baddies in Italy. They can be tough on immigration just like their supporters want it, their country will get more funds from the next EU budget (guess who's losing them) and the worst period of post crisis trouble is already over. They'll have to try really hard to mess this up. Or maybe not even that, they may just win by walk-over if their opponents from used-to-be-mainstream parties focus on total non-issues (in the eyes of average voter) like shaking Putin's hand or imaginary attempts to quit the EU.
They have to fix the economy better then previous government have done. Hardly a trivial thing.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 05 2018 19:02 GMT
#22351
On June 06 2018 03:51 Sent. wrote:
From certain perspective, the situation seems almost ideal for those populist baddies in Italy. They can be tough on immigration just like their supporters want it, their country will get more funds from the next EU budget (guess who's losing them) and the worst period of post crisis trouble is already over. They'll have to try really hard to mess this up. Or maybe not even that, they may just win by walk-over if their opponents from used-to-be-mainstream parties focus on total non-issues (in the eyes of average voter) like shaking Putin's hand or imaginary attempts to quit the EU.

Their situation is not ideal since their program is not compatible with the euro
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9250 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-05 19:05:31
June 05 2018 19:05 GMT
#22352
On June 06 2018 04:00 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2018 03:51 Sent. wrote:
From certain perspective, the situation seems almost ideal for those populist baddies in Italy. They can be tough on immigration just like their supporters want it, their country will get more funds from the next EU budget (guess who's losing them) and the worst period of post crisis trouble is already over. They'll have to try really hard to mess this up. Or maybe not even that, they may just win by walk-over if their opponents from used-to-be-mainstream parties focus on total non-issues (in the eyes of average voter) like shaking Putin's hand or imaginary attempts to quit the EU.
They have to fix the economy better then previous government have done. Hardly a trivial thing.


Yeah, that's the other perspective. Italy is in much better shape than Greece, so I think they have a chance to make it work.
You're now breathing manually
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5296 Posts
June 05 2018 19:37 GMT
#22353
http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2018/06/05/italy-visegrad-axis-leads-to-rejection-of-dublin-reform_707892b6-daa9-4ef1-8e6c-ec0300f648ae.html
(ANSAmed) - LUXEMBOURG, JUNE 5 - Italy and Visegrad nations have rejected a reform of the Dublin regulation that had been formulated by Bulgaria during its six-month EU presidency. The rejection came during an EU-28 interior ministers meeting in Luxembourg and is the latest halt to the process after two and half years of work on the reform.
...
Italy is no longer alone in Europe.'' Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte, in his first speech in Parliament, called for EU asylum reform that sets in place a relocation system for asylum seekers that is ''automatic and obligatory''. But herein lies the problem. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia (allies now) have always rejected redistribution mechanisms with the criteria indicated by Italy. The hardline approach is expanding and getting stronger and will do so even more starting in July, when far-right Austrian minister Herbert Kickl (FPOE) will be the six-month president of the EU's interior ministers council. (ANSAmed).


on the Dublin reform - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-towards-a-new-policy-on-migration/file-revision-of-the-dublin-regulation (refugees, responsibilities for, legal framework etc)

sides men, there are forming sides within the EU; get the frenches on board and germans will get the boot.
stop thinking of exits and populists and political discourse as if it means something; it's a power struggle within the EU and the up and comers have backers, international backers.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 05 2018 22:03 GMT
#22354
France's fake news law leaves media experts uneasy

Paris (AFP) - France is the latest country attempting to fight the scourge of fake news with legislation -- but opponents say the law won't work and could even be used to silence critics.

The draft law, designed to stop what the government calls "manipulation of information" in the run-up to elections, will be debated in parliament Thursday with a view to it being put into action during next year's European parliamentary polls.

The idea for the bill came straight from President Emmanuel Macron, who was himself targeted during his 2017 campaign by online rumours that he was gay and had a secret bank account in the Bahamas.

Under the law, French authorities would be able to immediately halt the publication of information deemed to be false ahead of elections.

Social networks would have to introduce measures allowing users to flag up false reports, pass their data on such articles to authorities, and make public their efforts against fake news.

And the law would authorise the state to take foreign broadcasters off the air if they were attempting to destabilise France -- a measure seemingly aimed at Russian state-backed outlet RT in particular.

- Censorship? -

European governments have struggled to work out how to respond to the fake news phenomenon, not least after accusations of Kremlin meddling in France and the US presidential vote that brought Donald Trump to power.

The British government has set up a "fake news" unit, while Italy has an online service to report false articles and the European Union is working on a "code of practice" that would provide guidelines for social media companies.

France wants to go further -- though not as far as neighbouring Germany, where social networks face fines of up to 50 million euros ($58 million) under a controversial law which critics say is overly draconian.

Some opponents fear French authorities could use powers in the new law to block embarrassing or compromising reports.

"It's a step towards censorship," said Vincent Lanier, head of France's national journalists' union, the SNJ. He labelled the bill "inefficient and potentially dangerous".

The government insists measures will be built into the law to protect freedom of speech, with only reports that are "manifestly false" and that have gone viral -- notably with the help of bots -- taken down.

"Reducing freedom of expression is not the idea at all. On the contrary, it's to protect it," said Culture Minister Francoise Nyssen.

Leaving fake news to spread would be a "direct attack" on journalism, she argued.

But for Jerome Fenoglio, editorial director of Le Monde newspaper, the legislation carries too big a risk of suppressing information in the public interest.

"Elections should be a time of great freedom -- these are periods when important information emerges," he said, noting as an example the fake jobs scandal that torpedoed the campaign of presidential frontrunner Francois Fillon last year.

"We should be worried about an authoritarian regime winning power in France in the future and the methods it might use," he said.

- Arbiters of truth -

Others worry the law could backfire by giving extra credibility to reports labelled "fake" by the authorities amongst those convinced the government is out to hide the truth.

Fabrice Epelboin, who teaches media studies at Sciences Po university in Paris, predicts "catastrophic consequences" of the legislation which he says "is already seen as a law of censorship".

"It will only reinforce a sense of defiance towards the press and politicians who are already very discredited," he warned.

Far-right leader Marine Le Pen, whose followers stand accused of spreading fake news, is among those who have spoken against the bill, asking: "Is France still a democracy if it muzzles its citizens?"

The EU, for its part, has said it does not want to create an Orwellian "ministry of truth" and will not legislate on fake news.

In France, there are also questions about how the law will work in practice.

Judges will have just 48 hours to rule on an urgent request to take down a report.

Legal expert Vincent Couronne says the law is "not only imperfect and unnecessary, but also dangerous for the peace and diversity of public debate".

It will turn judges into "arbiters of true and false", said Patrick Eveno, a media history professor at the Sorbonne university.

As for potentially kicking out foreign media, Fenoglio is deeply uncomfortable with the idea, not least given that Le Monde is blocked in China.

"I cannot defend measures under which it's considered normal to block all kinds of information because it's considered close to a foreign government," he said.

Source


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zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 05 2018 22:11 GMT
#22355
Please don't meme post like that.
as to the substance of the matter; it's a tricky issue with no good answers. While it's unfortunate and problematic to put restrictions/censorship on things, it's also the case that intentional disinformation campaigns can cause real damage, and something does need to be done about those. and it's not like we can rely on the myth that the "marketplace of ideas" will cause the truth to come out on top.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 05 2018 22:12 GMT
#22356
It's not a meme
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10132 Posts
June 05 2018 22:25 GMT
#22357
On June 06 2018 07:11 zlefin wrote:
Please don't meme post like that.
as to the substance of the matter; it's a tricky issue with no good answers. While it's unfortunate and problematic to put restrictions/censorship on things, it's also the case that intentional disinformation campaigns can cause real damage, and something does need to be done about those. and it's not like we can rely on the myth that the "marketplace of ideas" will cause the truth to come out on top.

I prefer the marketplace of ideas over blatant censorship that can be easily abused.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-05 22:34:38
June 05 2018 22:32 GMT
#22358
I dislike the "there are no good answers" response when it comes to the internet. People built the internet and designed it so we could freely share ideas. It was only recently when social media companies turn over all moderation to the "community" that this problem of peddling false information reached such a scale. In a lot of ways, we turned over our ability to govern the internet to huge companies. They still decide what is removed. They just let us press the report button.

A free exchange of ideas is the goal, but the market place of ideas has to be maintained by some governing body. Otherwise the lies and false information will win by sheer attrition and volume.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
June 05 2018 22:35 GMT
#22359
The State cannot decree what is true and what is false...
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-05 22:47:51
June 05 2018 22:45 GMT
#22360
That French measure is a good idea or else we'll be overrun by garbage tier news and live in Baudrillard's hyperreality.

On June 06 2018 07:35 TheDwf wrote:
The State cannot decree what is true and what is false...


No, nobody can decree what is true or false, facts simply are true or false, that's what makes them facts, it doesn't matter what anybody believes about them, they don't vanish. The state can however decide how it sanctions people or organisations who intentionally spread falsehoods.
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