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On August 08 2013 10:33 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 10:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:16 Caihead wrote:On August 08 2013 10:09 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:00 Caihead wrote:On August 08 2013 09:46 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 09:37 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 09:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 09:34 Caihead wrote:On August 08 2013 09:20 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
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That also assumes inebriation and not just a lack of education. How many standards do we put on people of sound mind and body before we deem them engaging in sexual behavior "adequately informed" and moral? I would assume as many standards as physically possible, at all times. In reality you want to maximize communication in relationships and raise the bar constantly. If you are talking about standards as in the line you draw from immoral and moral actions that's entirely up to debate, but the current consensus at least is to disclose what specific gender you are, I don't think that's remotely debatable. I don't really see any rationality against disclosing your gender either, purely from a communication and consensual relationship point of view. That's easy. My gender is "woman". Obviously he meant trans status there. No, not "obviously". There are as many genders as there are people who experience them. The binary of man and woman is merely a very vague way of communicating a complex idea. Any assumptions made after that are biased and unfounded. If someone wants to make clarifications as to what a person's identified gender means to them, they are more than free and welcome to. If they don't, then they have accepted the label and any assumptions they make about that person's identity based off of that are just that: assumptions. Thus, it is their own fault for not clarifying and potentially having their expectations not met. If your social agenda is to communicate complex ideas and a non-binary sexuality and promote that communication be my guest, millions of people around the world are doing that, including myself. But while we don't have that system yet you have to disclose because it's not understanding that can be taken for granted. If the general population doesn't have specific knowledge to be responsible then it becomes your responsibility to specifically disclose that knowledge to them, especially if you want to engage in a mutual relationship. Is that fair? No. But it's no different from what we expect from people with knowledge beyond the current state of others, educators, elders, parents, partners, etc, we are all expected to disclose information which we have the understanding that the other party might need to function properly. We have both moral and legal codes and laws which penalizes those who do not disclose information when they have the necessary oversight and knowledge to understand a situation to the party that doesn't, this is no different. I don't have a social agenda other than maybe personal freedom and responsibility - maybe. Secondly, my gender has no influence on another person's ability to function. Thirdly, you're conflating one-night-stands and relationships. I'm talking from the perspective of one-night-stands. Another person's ability to function includes their own will and personal preference in how they interact with other human beings. One night stands just decrease the duration of your responsibility, it doesn't change the fundamentals of it at all, so I don't see why you need to make that distinction. I don't think the attitude that one-night-stands are exempt from interpersonal responsibility has any real philosophical basis aside from hedonism. Maybe I'm a hedonist? When I agree to sexual activity with someone, I do so lovingly and unconditionally (which might be why I often get phone numbers slipped my way afterwards). When I have sex, I am open, receptive and vulnerable and I accept my partners for everything they are. I do not take responsibility for who they are and I definitely do not take responsibility for who they are afterwards, I'm not sure what you are getting at exactly, whether you are in the dominant or submissive position in any interaction doesn't exempt you from responsibility, the dominant party might in some cases carry more responsibility but there is never a perfectly dominant situation so it's never complete. Some of us might want such situations to exist where one party is solely responsible for themselves, or solely responsible for others, but reality is always in between. Regardless of what philosophy you subscribe to I think this is more an issue of interpretation of personal responsibility, I think you would agree that were your philosophy to include the consent of others as a high priority, then you would disclose any and all information regarding sexuality with moral obligation.
How much you choose to be responsible for someone else is a choice. I can deal with reasonable responsibility when it comes to physical safety, but when it comes to ethereal things, I can not and will not take responsibility for them.
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I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class.
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On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class.
Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway.
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On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway.
Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing.
I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently.
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are you using the wrong pronoun on purpose?
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On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently.
No, I identified myself as female.
You're using male pronouns.
You are denying my identity that I disclosed.
Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am.
I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity.
Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being.
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On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently.
Well said. It's important to make sure that that your view on that subject are a least similar, so no one is surprised.
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On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being.
But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it.
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On August 08 2013 11:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being. But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it.
I'm glad that you've arrived at my level.
Does this mean you concede?
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On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently.
i hope everyone feels this way one day.
but i believe those whom are pro disclosure argue that it is reasonable to assume that the person you are hooking up with is a transphobe
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On August 08 2013 11:22 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:21 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being. But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it. I'm glad that you've arrived at my level. Does this mean you concede? never, I will always refer to you as a her. I'm just pointing out that your point of view makes you a heartless bitch.
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In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings.
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United States42973 Posts
On August 08 2013 11:27 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings.
That's not how consent works. That's how predators with an entitlement complex believe consent should work.
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On August 08 2013 11:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:22 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:21 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being. But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it. I'm glad that you've arrived at my level. Does this mean you concede? never, I will always refer to you as a her. I'm just pointing out that your point of view makes you a heartless bitch.
A "heart" in your context is not necessary for a casual fuck.
A "heart" in your context is not even present in a casual fuck setting.
A "heart" in your context is choosing fear over love.
In your context, I am ok not having a heart in those situations.
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On August 08 2013 11:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:27 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings. That's not how consent works. That's how predators with an entitlement complex believe consent should work.
KwarK, I'm sorry, but you have long since become irrelevant in this discussion. All you do is try to make logical arguments for inequality and prejudice. I don't know how many more ways I can say that I reject your misplaced sense of morality.
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United States42973 Posts
On August 08 2013 11:30 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:27 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 11:27 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings. That's not how consent works. That's how predators with an entitlement complex believe consent should work. KwarK, I'm sorry, but you have long since become irrelevant in this discussion. All you do is try to make logical arguments for inequality and prejudice. I don't know how many more ways I can say that I reject your misplaced sense of morality.
All predators do, they believe they deserve the rules to not apply to them.
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On August 08 2013 11:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:30 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:27 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 11:27 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings. That's not how consent works. That's how predators with an entitlement complex believe consent should work. KwarK, I'm sorry, but you have long since become irrelevant in this discussion. All you do is try to make logical arguments for inequality and prejudice. I don't know how many more ways I can say that I reject your misplaced sense of morality. All predators do, they believe they deserve the rules to not apply to them.
You're like a broken record.
All oppressors believe that they are right for oppressing others.
Regardless of what you say or what you try to label me as, I'm not going to accept that there's special "rules" for me because you say so.
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United States42973 Posts
On August 08 2013 11:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:31 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 11:30 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:27 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 11:27 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
In case it went by you too fast:
If you all are agreeing that this is the attitude that I should be expecting from the vast majority of hetero cis men (THE NUMBERS), I don't think you have any right to demand that I owe them (or you) anything when it comes to feelings. That's not how consent works. That's how predators with an entitlement complex believe consent should work. KwarK, I'm sorry, but you have long since become irrelevant in this discussion. All you do is try to make logical arguments for inequality and prejudice. I don't know how many more ways I can say that I reject your misplaced sense of morality. All predators do, they believe they deserve the rules to not apply to them. You're like a broken record. All oppressors believe that they are right for oppressing others. Regardless of what you say or what you try to label me as, I'm not going to accept that there's special "rules" for me because you say so.
There are not. It just amounts to "try not to fuck people who don't want to fuck you, even if you can come up with an excuse". It's not a special rule, you just believe it shouldn't apply to you because "wah, wah, trans oppression, wah".
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On August 08 2013 11:28 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:26 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:22 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:21 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being. But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it. I'm glad that you've arrived at my level. Does this mean you concede? never, I will always refer to you as a her. I'm just pointing out that your point of view makes you a heartless bitch. A "heart" in your context is not necessary for a casual fuck. A "heart" in your context is not even present in a casual fuck setting. A "heart" in your context is choosing fear over love. In your context, I am ok not having a heart in those situations.
Sure, however you justify it to yourself. It is all about you after all.
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On August 08 2013 11:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 11:28 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:26 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:22 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:21 Plansix wrote:On August 08 2013 11:16 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 11:12 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 11:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 10:55 DoubleReed wrote:
I gotta say, this is rather confusing to me. I don't really see what the big deal is with trans people disclosing their gender, but if anything, Raspberry is making me think that it's a serious issue. His arguments are exactly the ones of an unrepentant predator. I don't know why you keep trying when he clearly doesn't understand consent. I don't see this issue exactly as Kwark does, but then I haven't really thought about it at all.
I suppose it's just another reason why consent should be covered in sex ed class. Disclosing gender status isn't important. I figured that'd be easy for you to understand since you so casually disregard it anyway. Coming from you, Mr. "It's not my responsibility," this means nothing. I just don't consider trans and cis to be such massively huge parts of identity that the difference between them is equivalent to different people. That counts as "casually disregard" for it, apparently. No, I identified myself as female. You're using male pronouns. You are denying my identity that I disclosed. Why should I take any of this seriously when you say that i should disclose and when I do, you say that I'm not who I say I am and I am only what you say I am. I don't know of any other appropriate time that someone deserves to be told to fuck off than when they strip someone else of their identity. Hopefully, you'll just come to understand how horrible you are being. But we are not required to care how you feel. We can say things and how you feel afterwords is up to you. Much like you don't care if someone is hurt by your actions, we are not required to care if you are hurt ours. At the end if the day, you willingly engaged in discussion and are responsible how you after it. I'm glad that you've arrived at my level. Does this mean you concede? never, I will always refer to you as a her. I'm just pointing out that your point of view makes you a heartless bitch. A "heart" in your context is not necessary for a casual fuck. A "heart" in your context is not even present in a casual fuck setting. A "heart" in your context is choosing fear over love. In your context, I am ok not having a heart in those situations. Sure, however you justify it to yourself. It is all about you after all.
Do you disclose to your partners before you put your dick in them how emotionally invested you are in them?
Do you even have partners?
Maybe they don't want someone as clingy as you sound.
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EPT
