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Recently I've stumbled upon the TL Mens Fashion Thread and found it pretty interesting to see that there is other SC2 nerds that are into fashion, and also what their specific tastes are. I have, however, found a lack of denim specific talk in the thread as well as a lot of misinformation in the denim discussion within. I don't consider myself to be an expert on denim, but having been obsessed with raw/selvedge denim for the last 8-9 years and working with it both in design (as a hobby), ordering (as a retail buyer/contact for brand reps), and selling (as a retail sales person in a high end boutique) has given me some insight that I think I could impart on the TL community and my hope is that there is more people in the TL community with a passion and knowledge greater than my own that I can learn from! Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. The discussion of denim in this thread will primarily be focused around raw and selvedge denim, but other questions are welcomed!
What is Raw Denim?
![[image loading]](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92eh5ycvy1racuivo1_500.jpg)
Raw denim can also be known as dry denim, or unwashed denim and is denim that is basically brand new. It has not undergone any washing or distressing before being put on the store shelf. Raw denim can usually be distinguished from normal denim by it's dark blue coloring, somewhat of a sheen, and often (but not always) a more stiff and rigid feel. Up until the early 70's all denim was raw, and then manufacturing methods and styles changed.
Why do people like raw denim?
http://vimeo.com/40101017#
A great video resource from Baldwin Denim
This answer is going to differ on who you talk to, some people just like the look of it, some people like the feel, and others the fact that it provides you with a great personalized look. Normal denim undergoes man ''pre-washes'' and distressing methods before hitting the store shelves, this allows it to feel softer/thinner/lighter and also gives the look of being worn already. Unfortunately this severely lowers the lifetime of your denim, as well as it's ability to be unique to your body, style, and wearing patterns.
I recently had the chance to meet and spend quite a bit of time talking to the owner and founder of Naked and Famous Denim, one of the most popular high end denim companies in the world, a company which as a side note has never purchased an advertisement of any sort. He gave the brilliant analogy of buying a new sports car: "You're in the Lamborghini dealership and you tell the salesmen you want the newest and best car they have on the lot, he responds by telling you that he has just the thing for you. As you walk back to the private showroom he pulls the tarp off of a 2013 AVENTADOR LP 700-4 but something is wrong... The salesmen begins to talk in his excited voice: "Check out this amazing rust around the wheel well, it looks like this car has been driven for years!! And these rips in the drivers seat, it looks as if someone has sat in this car for years, that's actually Marlon Brando's ass print we have in the seat!!'' What would you do? Probably tell the salesman to go fuck himself.
This summarizes how raw denim enthusiasts feel about buying pre-worn/distressed denim. Raw denim will wear and fade in a way that looks natural and personal to it's wearer. Every pair of raw denim after wear will be 100% unique to it's owner, without another pair looking and fitting like it in the world. Not only this but you're actually buying a higher quality product that will last much longer.
What is selvedge denim?
Selvedge denim is a little more difficult to explain, and quite honestly working in the clothing industry I hear the explanation, origin, and significance of selvedge denim butchered more than any other thing, even by people that are in positions where they should definitely know and understand the concept. To understand selvedge denim you need to learn a bit of denim history.
Believe it or not people did not always wear denim casually. Cotton pants and trousers were much more common and denim was introduced as something for manual laborers. It was perfect for work wear as it was sturdy and durable, didn't absorb stains easily and perhaps most importantly didn't develop an odor or smell (this is really important for later! Please remember this!). The main original denim manufacturers were Levi's and Lee and all denim was manufactured on Shuttle Looms. I want to go into more detail on shuttle looms vs modern manufacturing techniques later, as it's quite interesting, but for the sake of this post I'm going to be brief. Essentially shuttle looms make 1 pair of jeans a time, and they always cut from the edge of the 'roll' for the sake of wasting as little denim as possible. This creates this effect on the inside of the denim pantleg :
![[image loading]](http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e207/mofonyx/fc_0105_vedge_web2.jpg)
Selvedge literally just means ''Self Edge''. Those edges you are seeing with the red line within the white are each natural edge of the denim ''roll''. The looms seal off each piece of fabric automatically and that way it prevents unraveling/fraying (Thanks andyrau). ''Back in the day'' Levi's were characterized by the red line, while Lee's were just white and later changed to yellow.
So why did Levi's and Lee stop making selvedge denim? Eventually pop icons like Marlon Brando and James Dean started wearing denim as a staple part of their wardrobe, people wanted to wear it as a casual piece and not just for work wear. Levi's and thought that this was not a trend that was going to end soon, and to keep up with soaring demand they needed to upgrade their manufacturing process. They got rid of the shuttle looms and manufacturing method and replaced it with new machinery that could manufacture jeans at an exponentially faster rate, but many people claim that this was at the cost of quality. Where did all the shuttle looms go? The Japanese bought them all, and to this day almost all original shuttle looms that are still functioning reside in Japan (just one of the many reasons Japanese denim is considered to be the best in the world; another amazing topic for discussion).
So that's all well and good ..but why is selvedge denim actually better? This one is a bit more controversial but generally there is 3 common answers you'll hear, I'll save the best for last.
1) The ''self-edge'' looks pretty cool when you flip the cuffs of your jeans up, which has become more popular over the last few years. This is not a very solid reason as it's open to opinion.
2) The ''self-edge'' holds up better, makes a stronger bond and is less likely to fray,etc. Again this is somewhat true but a fairly minor reason and not enough to justify paying more a pair of jeans for most people.
3) Lastly, the most important reason, is many (myself included) believe that a lot has been lost in the art of denim manufacturing. For example, people value handmade leather materials and a home cooked meal, but don't give a 2nd thought to mass produced denim that is going to last you 1 or 2 years because someone has already put it through a large amount of artificial wear and tear. The self edge on denim is a way to tell that something has been carefully crafted in an old art form, and more than likely is of higher quality. A good comparison I've heard is a classic automatic watch vs a modern battery powered Casio that can be produced for a fraction of the cost.
COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS :
-Selvedge denim is not ''salvaged denim'', it's not recycled or anything of the sort.
-Selvedge denim is not necessarily always a better quality denim, there is good/bad selvedge denim just like anything else on earth, and there is good quality denim that is not selvedge. It's just a good metric for identifying denim quality.
You said Japanese denim is better, why?
This is subjective (somewhat) but it is pretty much universally accepted that the best denim in the world comes from Japan. Part of this is already mentioned above in regards to Japan having most of the shuttle looms in the world, but there is more to it.
For starters, the dyeing process used in most of Japan is different than the rest of the world. Most of the world has adopted ''vat dyeing'' techniques, which is for all intents and purposes exactly how it sounds, throwing the fabric into vats of indigo and taking them out. Japan on the other hand predominantly uses a different method referred to as ''rope dyeing'' where the threads of the denim yarn are twisted into a rope and then subjected to repeated ''dipping'' in the indigo as well as periods of oxydization.
Why is rope dyeing better? Vat dyeing basically puts the entire thread into a vat for an extended period of time which allows the indigo to fully penetrate the entire fabric, in rope dyeing the indigo never full penetrates the thread and thus the inner most parts of the thread are left white. This creates a denim that will allow an easier fade as well as a more natural and beautiful looking effect on the denim. There are other unique styles and dyeing processes used to create different effects (Hank dyeing for instance) but rope dyeing is considered the best for a good traditional look.
Another reason Japanese denim is considered to be better, which may sound ridiculous, is that the water in Japan (especially in some of the towns/cities that a lot of denim is manufactured in) has very unique properties which over the years have proved to work well for creating beautiful denim, and if you were to ask a Japanese denim worker why Japanese denim is the best their answer would almost assuredly be their water (I have heard this from many people who have been to Japanese denim mills and asked this very question).
Lastly, many denim mills in Japan are very very old, and as such have mastered their craft. The Japanese culture is famous for hard work and the dedication to mastering a craft, and denim is no exception, the Japanese people have truly mastered the art of denim manufacturing. The proof is in the pudding, the term ''Raw Japanese denim'' is used as a selling feature by the majority of high end denim companies in the world.
Ok, I'm sold, I want some good selvedge/raw jeans, what should I get?!
That is entirely up to you, there is such a wide variety of brands, styles, fits, price points, etc. and that's what makes getting into the world of high end denim an amazing and addicting venture. I will compile a list of brands that I have come to appreciate and as the thread / discussion grows hopefully we can build that list as well as have some more information regarding fits/styles. As for now I will only comment on styles that I've owned
Naked and Famous
Naked and Famous is perhaps one of the biggest rising stars in the raw/selvedge denim world despite never buying a single advertisement for their brand, and for good reason. Naked and Famous use only Japanese denim and all the jeans are cut and sewn in Quebec, Canada. Sold all over the world, Naked and Famous are perhaps most reasonably priced denim that you can find with Japanese raw selvedge jeans starting as low as $130.00. N&F is always coming out with new whacky and fun idea's like scented denim, glow in the dark denim, etc. but their staples are good, basic, classic pieces with very minimal design. There is currently 3 basic fits in N&F denim that you can find more info about on their site: Weird Guy, Skinny Guy, Super Skinny Guy with the Weird Guy being the most popular and versatile. Once you find your size in one fit you'll be able to find a million different styles and colors, etc. in that fit making purchasing easy PROS Price is unbeatable, quality, variety. Made in Canada! CONS Some people have issues finding a good fit, really deep front pockets which can at times be annoying but is pretty minor. Personal Pick Skinny guys!
Nudie Jeans Co.
Based in Sweden, Nudie's are often the entry point for a lot of people into the raw denim world. With their simple and iconic pocket stitch and their patented contrast orange stitching Nudies have become a staple in the high end denim world. Nudies will cost you a bit more on average than Naked and Famous but are still pretty reasonable in price, if you want to get into selvedge raw Nudies you'll have to get pretty high, but the basic non selvedge raw denim from Nudie is great and popular. PROS Easier to break in than most raw denim for raw denim newbs, known for their great fits! A lot of organic denim styles/transitioning to be fully organicCONS The inevitable Nudie crotch blowout that happens to everyone usually around the 2 year mark. Have heard reps claim it's because in Sweden people tend to wear their jeans higher and the lower wear of NA people causes an unnatural tension on the crotch when walking. Personal Pick Thin Finn Dry Black coated, Organic Dry Ecru Thin Finn/Slim Jim /w white pocket stitch
Baldwin Denim
A homegrown brand from Kansas City, Missouri. Baldwin is quickly becoming one of my favorite brands. They just make nice stuff and have grown their line a lot over the last few years. A really basic look combined with a good, mature fit collection make this a brand to check out. Prices similar to Nudies but without the same known problem of crotches blowing out as frequently. All jeans made in Los Angeles with materials from primarily White Oak Mills in the USA (very good quality, oldest denim mill in the USA) and Japan. Pros Made in the USA, great fit selection. CONS Still a smaller brand, not as easy to get for some people in the world, priced well but not as cheap as some similar brands.Personal Pick The 77
APC Denim
Neuw Denim
Just got given my first pair of these in the Iggy Skinny fit, extremely comfortable from the beginning with a very minimal but detailed design incorporating things I haven't seen before (darts around leg openings). Almost no breakin time, excited to update with more info. Decent price point
Flathead Denim
Samurai Denim
Ironheart Denim
3sixteen Denim
Momotaro Jeans
Pure Blue Japan
Am going to be adding a lot more! If you want to learn more about denim in the mean time I strongly suggest Rawr Denim ! Really hope we can spark some good discussion and that we can get some people into Raw denim that otherwise wouldn't be
THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, A LOT OF INFORMATION TO ADD SO I'LL SLOWLY BE ADDING/REFINING IT!
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On December 17 2012 17:09 Juliette wrote:
As a suggestion, list the manufacturers by price point and cuts ^^.
Am going to go into more detail on that as I go, but wanted to get it up and start discussion :p
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Naked and Famous, Dark Indigo Weird Guys right here, after 2 years the fades look sick. Most worthwhile clothing purchase I've ever made.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
There's no need to reserve posts.
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Dior Homme imo has the best cut for skinny/tall guys with the 17.5mm and the 19 are great with a bit more muscle/fat on their legs
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On December 17 2012 17:28 excal wrote:
Dior Homme imo has the best cut for skinny/tall guys with the 17.5mm and the 19 are great with a bit more muscle/fat on their legs
I always thought the Dior Homme pricepoint was too high for something that didn't offer enough in terms of fabric quality, etc. but maybe I'm wrong. I've heard before they have a good fit, what else is it you like about them?
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Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted.
So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something.
But nice write up anyway. 
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On December 17 2012 17:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something.
Realistically you probably don't pay as little as $30.00 for jeans, I think even American Eagle and GAP jeans are $50-70 or more now.. how long does a pair of those usually last you ? Before I got into buying high end denim I found myself buying jeans every 6 months and sometimes more often. I've had the same pair of Nudies for over 6 years now, in year 3 I had to do a preventative crotch repair and they cost me $200 Canadian originally. My $140 Naked and Famous I bought in 2009 still look as good as new and have faded beautifully.
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On December 17 2012 17:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something.
Well the best part is that you don't really have to be converted. A few points though:
- 300 is a relatively high price point, especially for those new to buying slevedge. Entry level raw denim can be had for as little as $90 (before sales) and range from $130 (N&F) to $180 (APC).
- http://www.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=889082&locale=en_US&kwid=1&sem=false&sdReferer=
- http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/levis-501-straight-leg-jeans-rigid-selvedge/3351069
- I don't think the OP stresses the denim quality very much. Compared to a lot of cheaper/low quality jeans, raw denim is meant to withstand beatings because its meant to fade. The quality you get for your money is much higher (but as said, not always), and over time you spend less $$ per wear. Which leads into
- It's not for everyone. Not everyone cares about how they look, nor do you have to spend a lot of money to look good. It's just an option. I don't think I need to justify why investing in good clothes is a really good idea, it's not only spending a ton of money on regular things but building a collection. Doesn't make wearing $30 dollar jeans anything less. I still wear my $40 levis pretty often, even though I'm still breaking in my APCs.
^^
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After reading this post, I'll never see a pair of jeans the same way again
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Thanks for an informative post. I'm never excited about clothing, but I'm a little enticed by snobbery, and swayed mightily by quality. Will probably try out some N&F soon.
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On December 17 2012 17:58 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 17:46 JLew wrote:On December 17 2012 17:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something. Realistically you probably don't pay as little as $30.00 for jeans, I think even American Eagle and GAP jeans are $50-70 or more now.. how long does a pair of those usually last you ? Before I got into buying high end denim I found myself buying jeans every 6 months and sometimes more often. I've had the same pair of Nudies for over 6 years now, in year 3 I had to do a preventative crotch repair and they cost me $200 Canadian originally. My $140 Naked and Famous I bought in 2009 still look as good as new and have faded beautifully. Any pics? The form fitting part intrigued me most because I have a weird body for a guy- big ass, girly calves/slim legs while having an athletic body-type overall. Naturally I've had a hard time finding jeans that fit well and oddly enough the two jeans I have that fit me best are from old navy...and they don't last very long lol. Dunno whether to try raw denim after reading this... seems pricy to try.
I sell lots of jeans in a day and every time a guy tells me they have girly calves or skinny legs I refer them to the Naked and Famous skinny guy. I actually have a big waist/ass and relatively normal sized calves/ankles and this fit works for me. Keep in mind because they are raw denim they are going to stretch A LOT (please watch the Baldwin video linked in the OP for information regarding this) You should buy them so that they just barely fit. Another fit I like for this is the Nudie Thin Finn, it's got a bit of a saggier bum but a good fitted leg.
I will try and get pictures of my jeans but they won't be much good without ''before'' pictures as reference. I'm sure you can find lots of before/afters on the internet with an easy search. Any raw denim I get from now on I'm going to do before/after with them. I would find a good boutique/denim store near you and go find a pair that fits for a price you're willing to pay. Like others have said you can start as low as $90-$100 and go up to...whatever price you want really. Naked and Famous is a good brand though cause you can probably stay between $120-$160 which honestly isn't a big jump up from more standard priced denim.
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This was a surprisingly interesting read, thx for that op, I love to learn something new everyday.
These jeans are not for me however, that's some insane prices. I spent 10$ on my last pair and it will probably stay like this. Yes, I do come from a third world country.
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On December 17 2012 18:16 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 18:09 JLew wrote:On December 17 2012 17:58 krndandaman wrote:On December 17 2012 17:46 JLew wrote:On December 17 2012 17:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something. Realistically you probably don't pay as little as $30.00 for jeans, I think even American Eagle and GAP jeans are $50-70 or more now.. how long does a pair of those usually last you ? Before I got into buying high end denim I found myself buying jeans every 6 months and sometimes more often. I've had the same pair of Nudies for over 6 years now, in year 3 I had to do a preventative crotch repair and they cost me $200 Canadian originally. My $140 Naked and Famous I bought in 2009 still look as good as new and have faded beautifully. Any pics? The form fitting part intrigued me most because I have a weird body for a guy- big ass, girly calves/slim legs while having an athletic body-type overall. Naturally I've had a hard time finding jeans that fit well and oddly enough the two jeans I have that fit me best are from old navy...and they don't last very long lol. Dunno whether to try raw denim after reading this... seems pricy to try. I sell lots of jeans in a day and every time a guy tells me they have girly calves or skinny legs I refer them to the Naked and Famous skinny guy. I actually have a big waist/ass and relatively normal sized calves/ankles and this fit works for me. Keep in mind because they are raw denim they are going to stretch A LOT (please watch the Baldwin video linked in the OP for information regarding this) You should buy them so that they just barely fit. Another fit I like for this is the Nudie Thin Finn, it's got a bit of a saggier bum but a good fitted leg. I will try and get pictures of my jeans but they won't be much good without ''before'' pictures as reference. I'm sure you can find lots of before/afters on the internet with an easy search. Any raw denim I get from now on I'm going to do before/after with them. I would find a good boutique/denim store near you and go find a pair that fits for a price you're willing to pay. Like others have said you can start as low as $90-$100 and go up to...whatever price you want really. Naked and Famous is a good brand though cause you can probably stay between $120-$160 which honestly isn't a big jump up from more standard priced denim. Thanks for the info. But I'm a bit wary of identifying as "skinny" cuz I only am below my thighs. My thighs are above average size and upperbody is bigger than lower. Still go for skinny?
You basically just described my body, although it's hard to say for sure if they would fit. Like I said, I would find a local retailer and go try some on. My advice to you though is don't have your traditional jean size too stuck in mind, be willing to try a couple sizes up or down to find what feels best, raw denim is very different and a lot of people change sizes when going into brands like Naked and Famous. Just go in ready to try a bunch of jeans on and leave with one that feels right, Skinny Guy is just my suggestion, you could like a Weird Guy as well for all I know.
Edit : Please let us know how you make out!
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I love jeans but I also love to dance in them so raw doesn't do it for me. The fabric is too stiff and not stretchy enough for me to move around. That's Why I love prewash jeans because they are stretchy enough and also they usually have 2% elastane so even better.
I wear my raw denim when going out though ^^
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What's with the length of the Naked and Famous jeans?
Do they all come in the same and you gotta hem them yourself?
Got 3 pairs of Nudies myself (One's a khaki, though) since I couldn't find any jeans that fit me anywhere else (tall and skinny as fuck)... when I go to a shop they are either too wide or too short. Now that I now the fits and sizes of the nudies I just tend to stick with those...
got one Thin Finn Organic Ecru Embo (i think) which should be about 1,5-2 years now and a Tape Ted organic dry grey which is about 1 year old now.
the fading on them didn't turn out very heavy, though. can't wear them all day since my work requires more formal clothes :/
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On December 17 2012 18:16 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 18:09 JLew wrote:On December 17 2012 17:58 krndandaman wrote:On December 17 2012 17:46 JLew wrote:On December 17 2012 17:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Please don't flood this thread with posts like ''Who pays $300 for a pair of jeans, I can buy mine for $30.00 from American Eagle and look just as good!" , and if you are curious to see WHY people pay that for jeans then read below! You might get converted. So I read the whole thread, you didn't come close to converting me to buy $300 jeans. I don't care if you told me my $30 jeans were made from the skin of fetuses and laced with strychnine. Maybe I will consider it when I become a stock broker in another life or something. Realistically you probably don't pay as little as $30.00 for jeans, I think even American Eagle and GAP jeans are $50-70 or more now.. how long does a pair of those usually last you ? Before I got into buying high end denim I found myself buying jeans every 6 months and sometimes more often. I've had the same pair of Nudies for over 6 years now, in year 3 I had to do a preventative crotch repair and they cost me $200 Canadian originally. My $140 Naked and Famous I bought in 2009 still look as good as new and have faded beautifully. Any pics? The form fitting part intrigued me most because I have a weird body for a guy- big ass, girly calves/slim legs while having an athletic body-type overall. Naturally I've had a hard time finding jeans that fit well and oddly enough the two jeans I have that fit me best are from old navy...and they don't last very long lol. Dunno whether to try raw denim after reading this... seems pricy to try. I sell lots of jeans in a day and every time a guy tells me they have girly calves or skinny legs I refer them to the Naked and Famous skinny guy. I actually have a big waist/ass and relatively normal sized calves/ankles and this fit works for me. Keep in mind because they are raw denim they are going to stretch A LOT (please watch the Baldwin video linked in the OP for information regarding this) You should buy them so that they just barely fit. Another fit I like for this is the Nudie Thin Finn, it's got a bit of a saggier bum but a good fitted leg. I will try and get pictures of my jeans but they won't be much good without ''before'' pictures as reference. I'm sure you can find lots of before/afters on the internet with an easy search. Any raw denim I get from now on I'm going to do before/after with them. I would find a good boutique/denim store near you and go find a pair that fits for a price you're willing to pay. Like others have said you can start as low as $90-$100 and go up to...whatever price you want really. Naked and Famous is a good brand though cause you can probably stay between $120-$160 which honestly isn't a big jump up from more standard priced denim. Thanks for the info. But I'm a bit wary of identifying as "skinny" cuz I only am below my thighs. My thighs are above average size and upperbody is bigger than lower. Still go for skinny?
My only working solution is loose fit. I do want to wear straight fit but I just cant pull it off, or maybe the image I have in my head is way off.
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EPT
