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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Not sure anyone has posted the actual statement yet
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On September 06 2017 03:02 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 02:23 Lmui wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. I'm left (voted Liberal in last federal, NDP in last provincial election) and pretty firmly against illegal immigration. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning/we-re-allowed-to-stay-here-forever-deportation-order-for-mexican-family-overturned-1.4272700This was in the news recently. Some illegal immigrants from Mexico got into the country, popped out some babies, and since the babies were born in Canada, the kids get citizenship. Kids are now 5, 6 and 9 years old. Because they're citizens, the judge ruled that it'd be in the kids interest to let them stay in Canada since Canada has better healthcare, education etc. than Mexico (not really arguable). They get to bypass the normal immigration process, get access to welfare, etc. whereas people who come legally are on 5+ year waiting lists via the normal immigration process. I would rather deport the parents, and the kids with them, and let the kids keep citizenship. Once the kids grow up or, if they can get parents visas for visiting Canada earlier than that, they can come back, and apply to import their parents in like everyone else. One of the problems with that is that you are deporting your own citizens and depriving them of rights simply because of their parents. I’m not sure citizenship is worth anything when they have to grow up in Mexico or some other nation. There is also the issue that they might not be a citizen of that nation or will have limited ability to prove their citizenship due to being born in another country. And I am not sure this issue is wide spread enough to invoke such a harsh stance. In general, Canada does deport kids with citizenship. The problem here is that they appealed and appealed, and by the time the appeal gets to the point where they decide that yes, they should be deported, the kids have been in our education system for so long that it's seriously detrimental to the kids to deport them. I say fuck the kids if it's early enough in life that they aren't embedded into our education system (I guess this is DACA in the USA). If the kids are less than ~grade 2-3, deport them, have them grow up elsewhere. If the parents can get someone to take care of the kids here, or successfully get a working visa to work while the kids go to school/grow up here, and get citizenship/PR, good for them. Otherwise, get out of the country, take the kids with you, the kids can come back/grow up here if/when someone who's legal in the country can take care of/provide for them here, or the kids are old enough to take care of themselves/provide for people in Canada. The anchor babies thing really needs to be heavily discouraged.
I would need more data on the subject to make my decisions on that one. It seems to be a hot button issue with a lot of people, but I don’t know if is a systemic problem that requires us to take some hard line stance. Unless it is extremely common, leaving it up to the judges is the best way to get a equitable solution.
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United States44197 Posts
So temporary work authorizations are granted 2 years at a time. You can't apply for renewal until 3 months before the current one expires. It takes about a year for a renewal to go through the system but during that time you can get a stamp from ISCIS saying you're awaiting a renewal and are good to work.
Not cancelling current authorizations isn't a two year delay for Congress to work, it's basically a legal requirement for his order, these guys already have the right to work, arbitrarily revoking that would be a nightmare of endless legal challenges. So instead he's opting to let them age out of the system.
The system will almost certainly be immediately flooded with mass renewals of anyone currently in that 3 month window (800,000 DACA * 3/24 = 100,000 people in the window) who are trying to get their paperwork in before the policy changes. After that we're going to have a year or so of people without paperwork who are still good because they're pending in the system and will be approved. Then we'll have another year or so of people without paperwork who are sort of good to work because they're in the renewal system, even though they'll be rejected. Then we'll have a while where people who were good because they're in the system who have now been rejected are working illegally but everyone doing business with them has good reason to think they're legal. And then if Congress actually fixes it we'll have a further clusterfuck where they have to reapply and they're who knows what legality for another year.
This is something that needed to be fixed by Congress before Trump fucked with it. What he is done is effectively create a catastrophe in order to try to force the hand of a legislative that doesn't know what the fuck it wants to do.
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On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people?
Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response.
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Let's see if he manages to foul up this entirely logical reasoning in a day, week, or month.
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On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response.
You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son.
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So typical Trump the polling is so bad he wants to blame Congress.
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On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response.
So, I'm sure everyone here can agree that guns kill people, amirite?
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never mind i think this might come too close to rehashing old crap
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On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son.
I'll try one more time:
On September 06 2017 01:43 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2017 22:34 xDaunt wrote:On September 05 2017 22:30 Danglars wrote:On September 05 2017 22:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
It's rather ironic that when xDaunt asks a question, he recieves a wide variety of answers dicussing the question, the meaning of the question, the politics and means and viability of the question and of poltics and policies, all in good faith. Meanwhile when someone asks xDaunt a yes and no question, he pointedly refuses to answer or skirts around the question. He did get his answer: the left cannot even posit in theory the goal of ending illegal immigration and absolute border control with a sane immigration policy. All attempts to answer different questions or ask the questioner on related topics gave rise to the actual answer. If we don't actually have the same gotals, is it any wonder that the policies meant to come close to achieving those goals are radically different? Bingo. Mind answering the question yourself then? As I see it there's really three questions here, which your question sort of conflates: 1) Assuming that all current illegal immigrants were going to immigrate anyway, would it have been better for them to have instead been able to immigrate legally? 2) Assuming it had been possible, would it have been better if all current illegal immigrants had been successfully prevented from entering by ICE, and/or successfully made to leave when their visa expired? 3) Assuming it were possible, would it be better if we deported all illegal immigrants currently living in the US? For me I'd think 1) is a nearly universal yes, 2) is hard to say, and 3) is an obvious no.
I don't know what "illegal immigration is bad" means specifically, so I don't know how to answer. I suspect most of the liberals you're criticizing are in the same boat.
Edit: and if you think my questions are unfair somehow, how so? If you didn't mean any of these, what did you mean?
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On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son.
No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare.
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On September 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son. No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare.
Once again, look within. Extend people the good faith that you demand we keep extending you.
I responded to your post with “I will also agree that crime is bad and all education should be the best.” What part of that was not agreeing with you?
Correction: I said: "I will also admit crime is bad and education should be the best possible. Cheese cake is just a pie," in response to your question about illegal immigration being a bad thing.
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On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response.
Almost every single dirty leftist replied 'some illegal immigration is good, and we should make that immigration legal while preventing bad illegal immigration' and then you said since you managed to summon up the courage to denounce Nazis, why couldn't the left just do the same but with poor people trying to find a better life. I don't understand what common ground you thought you would create beyond bad stuff = bad.
Unless you just want people to admit that everything illegal is bad, with no exceptions. Otherwise why would it be illegal?
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On September 06 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son. No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare. Once again, look within. Extend people the good faith that you demand we keep extending you. I responded to your post with “I will also agree that crime is bad and all education should be the best.” What part of that was not agreeing with you?
I showed the good faith by asking the fucking question in the simplest form possible rather than presuming the answer. That y'all still refused to make their simplest and easiest of admissions isn't my fault. If y'all want to play dumb or lie, I can't stop you.
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i mean additionally the questions are not the same. aside from the fact that illegal immigrants aren't nazis, he's basically asking us to say 'all crime is bad.' at this point we've lost all perspective of nuance in a fairly nuanced topic. additionally, i don't think it's too outlandish to come out and say not all crime is bad.
frankly i'm surprised anyone's willing to entertain this at all.
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United States44197 Posts
On September 06 2017 04:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son. No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare. Once again, look within. Extend people the good faith that you demand we keep extending you. I responded to your post with “I will also agree that crime is bad and all education should be the best.” What part of that was not agreeing with you? I showed the good faith by asking the fucking question in the simplest form possible rather than presuming the answer. That y'all still refused to make their simplest and easiest of admissions isn't my fault. If y'all want to play dumb or lie, I can't stop you.
The question was dumb as fuck.
I'll give you some examples of other stupid questions in the same format you used.
Are taxes good?
Are drugs bad?
Are chemicals in tap water good?
Student loans?
Debt?
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Edit: Perhaps people's tempers are a bit too high for that comment. Deleted.
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This is some amazing wah wah, everyone is out to get me, you all are bad posters from XDaunt.
Poll: Is xdaunt the new zlefin of the US politics thread?Yes (16) 76% No (5) 24% 21 total votes Your vote: Is xdaunt the new zlefin of the US politics thread? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
User was warned for this post
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On September 06 2017 04:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son. No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare. Once again, look within. Extend people the good faith that you demand we keep extending you. I responded to your post with “I will also agree that crime is bad and all education should be the best.” What part of that was not agreeing with you? I showed the good faith by asking the fucking question in the simplest form possible rather than presuming the answer. That y'all still refused to make their simplest and easiest of admissions isn't my fault. If y'all want to play dumb or lie, I can't stop you.
Put it this way:
Is Trump bad? Bear in mind if you don't answer, or give anything more than yes or no, I can apparently assume you're either playing dumb or lying.
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On September 06 2017 04:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:56 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 03:34 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 03:22 xDaunt wrote:On September 06 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 06 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand all of the handwringing going on here over the questions that I posed about illegal immigration. I gave y'all a very clear opportunity to acknowledge that it's a bad thing. I put it right on the tee, and y'all still wouldn't take it. Even I had the good sense to denounce Nazism while acknowledging that they have a right to protest. So what exactly is a reasonable person supposed to take from this refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is bad? And how about putting this refusal in the context of Democrats obstructing immigration enforcement if not outright encouraging it?
There's nothing inherently wrong with advocating for an open, legal immigration policy. However, where the Left has jumped the shark is in their dogged refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem and a bad thing. Almost every poster agreed with you that it was illegal and bad for everyone. I didn't see anyone here saying it was great. What are you trying to do here? Is this gaslighting for stupid people? Who agreed with me? Just take a look at the shit from here going on forward. I went out of my way to create some common ground, and I get shit like this in response. You should consider these types of responses a reflection on your abject failure to build common ground. Look within my son. No, and to borrow language from zlefin, this very clearly is a function of the lack of soundness in the leftist position on immigration. Y'all are just as vulnerable on immigration as the right is on healthcare. Once again, look within. Extend people the good faith that you demand we keep extending you. I responded to your post with “I will also agree that crime is bad and all education should be the best.” What part of that was not agreeing with you? I showed the good faith by asking the fucking question in the simplest form possible rather than presuming the answer. That y'all still refused to make their simplest and easiest of admissions isn't my fault. If y'all want to play dumb or lie, I can't stop you.
I stand by my original assessment, this is gaslighting for stupid people. You can’t trick us into redefining good faith to allow you to call “the left” stupid all the time.
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EPT
