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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6169

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-10 08:05:15
November 10 2016 08:04 GMT
#123361
On November 10 2016 13:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 13:53 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Unsurprisingly, Trump supporters have become emboldened with Trump's win and are assaulting people non-stop. When you vote for a candidate who supports assaulting women, insulting minorities, and attacking people who disagree with you, this is the shit you get...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


I suppose you're going to report with equal fervor on the Hillary supporters setting fire to things in protest as well?


Are you really comparing sexual assault and physical violence against people to setting fire to a few garbage cans and spraying some graffiti? Vandalism takes a back seat to hate crimes, sorry.


Your handful of anecdotes mean absolutely nothing to me, there isn't an epidemic of Trump inspired hate crimes. If you think differently, show so by credible statistics rather than internet stories. Generalizing from simple anecdotes is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to argue.


It's been one day, so I doubt that statistics have already been compiled. However, there are tons of articles about crazy behavior from Trump supporters, from the sexual assault and hate crimes previously mentioned, to Nazi/ anti-Semitic graffiti (https://trofire.com/2016/11/09/trumps-fascist-hate-already-spreading-cross-burning-nazi-vandalism-hate-crimes/). It's very disappointing when people really don't care about this kind of enabled chaos.

Looking at UK statistics, there were severe spikes in hate crimes due to Brexit: http://instinctmagazine.com/post/lgbt-hate-crimes-expected-skyrocket-trumps-presidential-win That's definitely comparable to our election situation, although Trump's rhetoric was even more toxic than the rhetoric across the Atlantic.


Have you seen this video of Hillary supporters beating up an older Trump voter, then stealing his car after dragging him along for a bit?

No, probably not, it wouldn't be featured in the media you read.

+ Show Spoiler +


Probably NSFW.

Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12169 Posts
November 10 2016 08:05 GMT
#123362
On November 10 2016 16:57 CAPSLOCKED wrote:
Shout-out to the liberal education juggernaut successfully corrupting an entire generation of our nation's youth. Nazis attempted to do it and failed. USSR attempted to do it and failed. But these unapologetic Marxists pulled it off, an entire generation of useful idiots out in the streets protesting a man most left-wing outfits regarded as the most progressive GOP candidate there has ever been just a year ago.


This is the kind of post that makes me think I won't have much interest posting under a Trump thread. It proudly doesn't make any sense.
No will to live, no wish to die
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 10 2016 08:09 GMT
#123363
On November 10 2016 17:01 Wolfstan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 16:18 LegalLord wrote:
Well we couldn't risk nominating Bernie, we have to go with a the candidate who has a better chance of winning this election.

I would also like to hear more about how he wasn't enough of a friend to the establishment so it is justified for the DNC to conspire against him.

The coalition he built though, I divide them into three main camps, the deplorables, the hurting blue collar workers, and the brick throwers who are very angry. Bernie shreds two of those pillars of his support. He even had the audacity to suggest a 50 state strategy, not the 7 state strategy Hillary's campaign ran.

I know this much: he seems unlikely to be under FBI investigation, and he has a devotion to principles that even hardcore Republicans can respect. And his Republican challenger would have been the least liked candidate in history. In a lot of people, he would not inspire confidence, but he would provide a choice that wouldn't make people feel viscerally sick about voting for. Where he was weak (with independents), Hillary was even weaker. Where he was strong (Democrats who called themselves independents), Hillary was not. I know enough people who were Bernie > Trump > Hillary, who liked none of the candidates, who really epitomize how the Hillary coalition really just tossed everything aside for the one-track goal of electing a nominee less popular than anyone who preceded her.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 10 2016 08:30 GMT
#123364
On November 10 2016 17:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 16:57 CAPSLOCKED wrote:
Shout-out to the liberal education juggernaut successfully corrupting an entire generation of our nation's youth. Nazis attempted to do it and failed. USSR attempted to do it and failed. But these unapologetic Marxists pulled it off, an entire generation of useful idiots out in the streets protesting a man most left-wing outfits regarded as the most progressive GOP candidate there has ever been just a year ago.


This is the kind of post that makes me think I won't have much interest posting under a Trump thread. It proudly doesn't make any sense.

If only controversy was equatable to interesting you would be in for a lovely 4 years.
It's gonna be hard for America to unite under a guy a lot of people really despise as a person and simply don't respect, regardless of his stature. It's gonna be a real shitshow, as if we hadn't had enough of it already.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9118 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-10 08:36:44
November 10 2016 08:32 GMT
#123365
On November 10 2016 17:04 Laurens wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 13:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:53 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Unsurprisingly, Trump supporters have become emboldened with Trump's win and are assaulting people non-stop. When you vote for a candidate who supports assaulting women, insulting minorities, and attacking people who disagree with you, this is the shit you get...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


I suppose you're going to report with equal fervor on the Hillary supporters setting fire to things in protest as well?


Are you really comparing sexual assault and physical violence against people to setting fire to a few garbage cans and spraying some graffiti? Vandalism takes a back seat to hate crimes, sorry.


Your handful of anecdotes mean absolutely nothing to me, there isn't an epidemic of Trump inspired hate crimes. If you think differently, show so by credible statistics rather than internet stories. Generalizing from simple anecdotes is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to argue.


It's been one day, so I doubt that statistics have already been compiled. However, there are tons of articles about crazy behavior from Trump supporters, from the sexual assault and hate crimes previously mentioned, to Nazi/ anti-Semitic graffiti (https://trofire.com/2016/11/09/trumps-fascist-hate-already-spreading-cross-burning-nazi-vandalism-hate-crimes/). It's very disappointing when people really don't care about this kind of enabled chaos.

Looking at UK statistics, there were severe spikes in hate crimes due to Brexit: http://instinctmagazine.com/post/lgbt-hate-crimes-expected-skyrocket-trumps-presidential-win That's definitely comparable to our election situation, although Trump's rhetoric was even more toxic than the rhetoric across the Atlantic.


Have you seen this video of Hillary supporters beating up an older Trump voter, then stealing his car after dragging him along for a bit?

No, probably not, it wouldn't be featured in the media you read.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/796545047915331586


Probably NSFW.


Probably because we've seen so many videos like that posted here that turned out to be acted or have nothing to do with the presumed context. In this particular case, even the person tweeting it doesn't claim it has anything to do with the election (only that it had a joke caption), could be a video from years ago.

Some skepticism would surely help you instead of jumping straight to assuming it's a huge media conspiracy to not feature these super legitimate social media posts.

edit: searched more about it and found one with the original sound instead of that music and they are indeed talking about Trump in the video
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
November 10 2016 08:35 GMT
#123366
On November 10 2016 17:32 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 17:04 Laurens wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:53 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Unsurprisingly, Trump supporters have become emboldened with Trump's win and are assaulting people non-stop. When you vote for a candidate who supports assaulting women, insulting minorities, and attacking people who disagree with you, this is the shit you get...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


I suppose you're going to report with equal fervor on the Hillary supporters setting fire to things in protest as well?


Are you really comparing sexual assault and physical violence against people to setting fire to a few garbage cans and spraying some graffiti? Vandalism takes a back seat to hate crimes, sorry.


Your handful of anecdotes mean absolutely nothing to me, there isn't an epidemic of Trump inspired hate crimes. If you think differently, show so by credible statistics rather than internet stories. Generalizing from simple anecdotes is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to argue.


It's been one day, so I doubt that statistics have already been compiled. However, there are tons of articles about crazy behavior from Trump supporters, from the sexual assault and hate crimes previously mentioned, to Nazi/ anti-Semitic graffiti (https://trofire.com/2016/11/09/trumps-fascist-hate-already-spreading-cross-burning-nazi-vandalism-hate-crimes/). It's very disappointing when people really don't care about this kind of enabled chaos.

Looking at UK statistics, there were severe spikes in hate crimes due to Brexit: http://instinctmagazine.com/post/lgbt-hate-crimes-expected-skyrocket-trumps-presidential-win That's definitely comparable to our election situation, although Trump's rhetoric was even more toxic than the rhetoric across the Atlantic.


Have you seen this video of Hillary supporters beating up an older Trump voter, then stealing his car after dragging him along for a bit?

No, probably not, it wouldn't be featured in the media you read.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/796545047915331586


Probably NSFW.


Probably because we've seen so many videos like that posted here that turned out to be acted or have nothing to do with the presumed context. In this particular case, even the person tweeting it doesn't claim it has anything to do with the election (only that it had a joke caption), could be a video from years ago.

Some skepticism would surely help you instead of jumping straight to assuming it's a huge media conspiracy to not feature these super legitimate social media posts.


I realised too late that I uploaded the longer version which doesn't have the ppl shouting about Trump.

Here's a shorter version with audio, indulge yourself.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://streamable.com/6nwo
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
November 10 2016 08:42 GMT
#123367
On November 10 2016 15:21 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
also in what I hope we can all agree on is good news

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/09/501388042/maricopa-sheriff-joe-apraio-loses-reelection-fight

Heh, depends how you view things.
Put it this way - now he is free from his current position Trump could make him a member of his cabinet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 10 2016 08:46 GMT
#123368
So, I'm not sure if it's reached this thread (I skimmed through a lot of pages), but here's a twit that includes Bernie's full statement on the Trump victory.

http://twitter.com/gdebenedetti/status/796495549134438400/

I suppose it's a pretty good commentary. A little loaded in its identity politics statement but he qualifies it enough that I don't think he's going to piss anyone off.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28475 Posts
November 10 2016 08:58 GMT
#123369
On November 10 2016 17:46 LegalLord wrote:
So, I'm not sure if it's reached this thread (I skimmed through a lot of pages), but here's a twit that includes Bernie's full statement on the Trump victory.

http://twitter.com/gdebenedetti/status/796495549134438400/

I suppose it's a pretty good commentary. A little loaded in its identity politics statement but he qualifies it enough that I don't think he's going to piss anyone off.

".. of billionaires not paying federal income taxes.. - all while the rich become much richer."

Isn't Trump proposing specifically tax cuts for the rich?

I Protoss winner, could it be?
KT_Elwood
Profile Joined July 2015
Germany933 Posts
November 10 2016 08:58 GMT
#123370
Is it true that Clinton got 300k more votes, but lost because of the system?
Maybe you should adress this. Last time the guy with lesser votes started war in Afghanistan, Irak, Lybia and enabled Isis rise to Power...
"First he eats our dogs, and then he taxes the penguins... Donald Trump truly is the Donald Trump of our generation. " -DPB
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16697 Posts
November 10 2016 08:59 GMT
#123371
Trump supplants Reagan as the oldest elected President. By age 72 less than 3 years into Reagan's 1st term he was showing signs of decreased mental capacity; the running joke was that Nancy was running the country.

How long will Trump last? who will take over as the de facto Prez when he starts to decline?( if the decline has not already begun)

a key factor in decreased mental capacity due to aging is height and Trump is 6'2". the taller u r the higher the probability you'll lose your marbles as you age.

User was warned for this post
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Thax
Profile Joined July 2014
Belgium1060 Posts
November 10 2016 08:59 GMT
#123372
On November 10 2016 17:46 LegalLord wrote:
So, I'm not sure if it's reached this thread (I skimmed through a lot of pages), but here's a twit that includes Bernie's full statement on the Trump victory.

http://twitter.com/gdebenedetti/status/796495549134438400/

I suppose it's a pretty good commentary. A little loaded in its identity politics statement but he qualifies it enough that I don't think he's going to piss anyone off.


Yes, good commentary, right on the nose. To bad all the middle class people who actually voted Trump didn't realize Trump is the very personification of the rich becoming richer that they are so railing against. They got suckered hard.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6209 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-10 09:12:13
November 10 2016 09:09 GMT
#123373
On November 10 2016 17:30 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 17:05 Nebuchad wrote:
On November 10 2016 16:57 CAPSLOCKED wrote:
Shout-out to the liberal education juggernaut successfully corrupting an entire generation of our nation's youth. Nazis attempted to do it and failed. USSR attempted to do it and failed. But these unapologetic Marxists pulled it off, an entire generation of useful idiots out in the streets protesting a man most left-wing outfits regarded as the most progressive GOP candidate there has ever been just a year ago.


This is the kind of post that makes me think I won't have much interest posting under a Trump thread. It proudly doesn't make any sense.

If only controversy was equatable to interesting you would be in for a lovely 4 years.
It's gonna be hard for America to unite under a guy a lot of people really despise as a person and simply don't respect, regardless of his stature. It's gonna be a real shitshow, as if we hadn't had enough of it already.

This would've happened regardless of who would've won. Clinton was despised by half of the population as well.

On November 10 2016 17:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Trump supplants Reagan as the oldest elected President. By age 72 less than 3 years into Reagan's 1st term he was showing signs of decreased mental capacity; the running joke was that Nancy was running the country.

How long will Trump last? who will take over as the de facto Prez when he starts to decline?( if the decline has not already begun)

a key factor in decreased mental capacity due to aging is height and Trump is 6'2". the taller u r the higher the probability you'll lose your marbles as you age.

This is useless speculation. Waren buffet is running Berkshire Hathaway while he's 86. Every individual is different and we'll just have to wait and see what happens. Its like all the 'Clinton isn't healthy enough due to her age' bullshit which flew around.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
November 10 2016 09:13 GMT
#123374
On November 10 2016 17:04 Laurens wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 13:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:53 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:40 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On November 10 2016 13:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Unsurprisingly, Trump supporters have become emboldened with Trump's win and are assaulting people non-stop. When you vote for a candidate who supports assaulting women, insulting minorities, and attacking people who disagree with you, this is the shit you get...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]


I suppose you're going to report with equal fervor on the Hillary supporters setting fire to things in protest as well?


Are you really comparing sexual assault and physical violence against people to setting fire to a few garbage cans and spraying some graffiti? Vandalism takes a back seat to hate crimes, sorry.


Your handful of anecdotes mean absolutely nothing to me, there isn't an epidemic of Trump inspired hate crimes. If you think differently, show so by credible statistics rather than internet stories. Generalizing from simple anecdotes is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to argue.


It's been one day, so I doubt that statistics have already been compiled. However, there are tons of articles about crazy behavior from Trump supporters, from the sexual assault and hate crimes previously mentioned, to Nazi/ anti-Semitic graffiti (https://trofire.com/2016/11/09/trumps-fascist-hate-already-spreading-cross-burning-nazi-vandalism-hate-crimes/). It's very disappointing when people really don't care about this kind of enabled chaos.

Looking at UK statistics, there were severe spikes in hate crimes due to Brexit: http://instinctmagazine.com/post/lgbt-hate-crimes-expected-skyrocket-trumps-presidential-win That's definitely comparable to our election situation, although Trump's rhetoric was even more toxic than the rhetoric across the Atlantic.


Have you seen this video of Hillary supporters beating up an older Trump voter, then stealing his car after dragging him along for a bit?

No, probably not, it wouldn't be featured in the media you read.

+ Show Spoiler +
https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/796545047915331586


Probably NSFW.


I kind of wish I hadn't seen that.... Assuming it's real and not some 'hilarious' youtube retards idea of how to make a living, that's fucking disgusting.

Makes one sympathetic to the whole right to bear arms deal.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
November 10 2016 09:21 GMT
#123375
On November 10 2016 14:50 Nyxisto wrote:
Dunno if this has been posted as the thread is moving pretty fast, but here's Trump's first 100 day plan.

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

Looks like he's going full Trump more or less.


Nuts, lol

I like what he does to lobbyists and congress limits (end of career politicians), though stuff like the wall and UN climate stuff is less good

coal and pipelines suck
maru lover forever
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
November 10 2016 09:45 GMT
#123376
I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in.
What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.

How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.

Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.

Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Thax
Profile Joined July 2014
Belgium1060 Posts
November 10 2016 09:51 GMT
#123377
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in.
What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.

How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.

Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.

Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.


Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people.

User was warned for this post
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4541 Posts
November 10 2016 09:52 GMT
#123378
On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in.
What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.

How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.

Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.

Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.


Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people.


Well done proving his point lol.

The DNC is to blame, not Sanders supporters, and certainly not "racist white people".
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-10 10:08:28
November 10 2016 10:05 GMT
#123379
I mean if someone preferred Hillary to Trump but wasted their vote on a third party, they kind of are to blame. So is everyone who stayed home because they assumed there was no way she could lose. So is the DNC.

That's the thing about blame. There's no reason it has to be restricted to a single one person or entity.

Any number of decisions or events could have changed the outcome. None of them happened, and a lot of people screwed up to make it so.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18401 Posts
November 10 2016 10:08 GMT
#123380
On November 10 2016 18:51 Thax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2016 18:45 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I'm seeing a huge number of people on social media angry with Trump and "racist" white people that voted him in.
What I'm not seeing so much of is democratic supporters giving the DNC a grill over their shocking treatment of Sanders.The primaries were rigged against Sanders, who was destroying Trump in all the polls.

How about instead of protesting against Trump protest against the corrupt DNC and try to get some real change in that organisation.Then you've got a chance of getting a good candidate instead of an establishment shill like Clinton and with a decent chance of Trump being impeached in his first term the outlook could be good.

Personally i still think too many people are uninformed and just get their news from mainstream outlets who are completely discredited to anyone who is awake to the game.

Sites like HuffPo are hyperbolic right now, channel that anger toward positive change in your own party instead of this negativity.


Clinton also destroyed Trump in the polls. Every Sanders-fanboy who has taken this election to vote Trump or even third party as some sort of big fuck you to the establishment has blood on their hands. Trump is going to destroy lives and it's as much their fault as it is of racist white people.


But then those fanboys would have to accept that they screwed up. Better to blame other things than yourself
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