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Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 60

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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.

If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post.
sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-18 17:29:26
May 18 2012 17:21 GMT
#1181
You are not allowed to initiate a fight with someone and then shoot them in self defense... lol.

I don't know how anything else after that police report is relevant, tbh... the injuries to Zimmerman don't matter because he approached Martin in the first place. It was only a "life or death" fight because Zimmerman chose to engage him, he could have stayed in his car with the windows rolled up. I don't doubt he was scared personally but he chose the only action that could have resulted in injury to either party
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-18 17:31:44
May 18 2012 17:26 GMT
#1182
On May 19 2012 02:08 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2012 23:25 heliusx wrote:
You seem to have serious writing/reading comprehension problems.


nice ad hominem. thats really ironic considering youre the one who infact is having trouble understanding the law which is clearly written.

How do you interpret an act which is imminently dangerous to another?. What did Zimmerman do that was 'imminently' dangerous to Martin, before being beaten down to a pulp?


ive already made this clear you can go back and read what i said or not I really dont care at this point. I dont think you want to actually respond to what ive said.


the evidence seems to indicate he wasn't carrying the gun in his hand and he didn't throw the first punch.


irrelevant where he had the gun, it was on his person and thats all that matters.

As I said it's not enough to proof irrationality or depravity, you have to show clear aggressive, physical, dangerous behavior prior to the confrontation


as ive told you 3 times, what youre claiming has to be proved is inconsistent with florida law. Im not sure why you keep repeating obvious false information after ive clearly shown what needs to be proved as provided by FLORIDA LAW.

on that note im not sure whats the point of your argument, youre trying to tell me what the law says is wrong is what it all comes down to. pardon me if i believe whats written on the books over what someone on a sc forums claims.

both of you dont appear to be particularly informed on the facts or law of this case (both of which are laid out to some extent in the op, but it appears neither of you have looked at it). mind taking your back and forth "discussion" to PMs?

you want to point out where i am incorrect? all i did was reiterate what the law specifically states. im pretty sure its correct no matter what your op states. the instructions to jurors on 2nd degree are literally a dumbed down version of the statutes. they mean the same thing. you can disagree with me that is fine, yet i dont see the point in saying "youre wrong" and nothing else. if the mods think im out of place they will tell me, its not for you to worry.
dude bro.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
May 18 2012 17:37 GMT
#1183
On May 19 2012 02:26 heliusx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 02:08 dAPhREAk wrote:
On May 18 2012 23:25 heliusx wrote:
You seem to have serious writing/reading comprehension problems.


nice ad hominem. thats really ironic considering youre the one who infact is having trouble understanding the law which is clearly written.

How do you interpret an act which is imminently dangerous to another?. What did Zimmerman do that was 'imminently' dangerous to Martin, before being beaten down to a pulp?


ive already made this clear you can go back and read what i said or not I really dont care at this point. I dont think you want to actually respond to what ive said.


the evidence seems to indicate he wasn't carrying the gun in his hand and he didn't throw the first punch.


irrelevant where he had the gun, it was on his person and thats all that matters.

As I said it's not enough to proof irrationality or depravity, you have to show clear aggressive, physical, dangerous behavior prior to the confrontation


as ive told you 3 times, what youre claiming has to be proved is inconsistent with florida law. Im not sure why you keep repeating obvious false information after ive clearly shown what needs to be proved as provided by FLORIDA LAW.

on that note im not sure whats the point of your argument, youre trying to tell me what the law says is wrong is what it all comes down to. pardon me if i believe whats written on the books over what someone on a sc forums claims.

both of you dont appear to be particularly informed on the facts or law of this case (both of which are laid out to some extent in the op, but it appears neither of you have looked at it). mind taking your back and forth "discussion" to PMs?

you want to point out where i am incorrect? all i did was reiterate what the law specifically states. im pretty sure its correct no matter what your op states. the instructions to jurors on 2nd degree are literally a dumbed down version of the statutes. they mean the same thing. you can disagree with me that is fine, yet i dont see the point in saying "youre wrong" and nothing else. if the mods think im out of place they will tell me, its not for you to worry.

your argument with s4life has boiled down to meaningless babble.

here are the issues i had with your posts (and I am not going to go back and read them all): (1) you keep saying he stalked trayvon; read the jury instructions, law or whatever else you want and you will realize that he did not "stalk" him; if you are using it in a layman's sense instead of a legal sense then the fact that he followed him really isn't all that meaningful; this has been discussed before in this thread, so i would suggest you go back and read; (2) you keep calling him a vigilante, which is an inappropriate application of that term; this has been discussed to death in this thread; you are new here, so please go back through the thread and find the discussion; and (3) this statement is ridiculously wrong:

proving zimmerman started the fight does not need to be proved and im not going to argue with you on something you could easily google

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324498&currentpage=58#1156

the government has the burden of disproving his self defense claim. if they cannot prove that zimmerman even started the fight then they almost auto-lose.
CaptainCrush
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States785 Posts
May 18 2012 17:37 GMT
#1184
On May 19 2012 02:21 patzernuk wrote:
You are not allowed to initiate a fight with someone and then shoot them in self defense... lol.

I don't know how anything else after that police report is relevant, tbh... the injuries to Zimmerman don't matter because he approached Martin in the first place. It was only a "life or death" fight because Zimmerman chose to engage him, he could have stayed in his car with the windows rolled up. I don't doubt he was scared personally but he chose the only action that could have resulted in injury to either party


Thats not true at all...

If his story is true, and it certainly seems like it is now, then Trayvon chose to make it physical by throwing the first punch and continuing to bash his head into the ground. Sure, you're right that he could have stayed in his car but Trayvon could have called him a name and left or simply gone home without saying anything at all....

Or he could have just said he was cutting through someones yard since it was raining and left it at that. There were plenty of decisions made by both of these men that lead to the situation. Just becuase Zimmerman got out of the car does not mean that he is still guilty, its kind of a last ditch effort to say that he's a racist cold-blooded killer in my opinion.
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
May 18 2012 18:14 GMT
#1185
Just a few things in the thread that arose:
Cannabis does not just make people more peaceful. What it does is make people paranoid, which could have easily affected Trayvon's mindest into thinking that he was in grave danger. I'm not sure how a mind under the influence would affect the Stand Your Ground law though.
Zimmerman having a gun doesn't matter. If he had not had his gun on him (and was not using the gun to threaten Trayvon), then the exact same thing would have happened. Well, Zimmerman might be dead or in extremely critical condition. Having the gun on him does not suddenly make him an aggressive individual looking for a conflict (especially if he did not show or use the gun until he was being beaten bloody).
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
Esk23
Profile Joined July 2011
United States447 Posts
May 18 2012 18:24 GMT
#1186
Evidence so far supports Zimmerman, that he was approached by Trayvon and attacked, in which he got his ass handed to him before he had to shoot Trayvon. This whole case was presented by the media in a way to create racial divide among people. The case should be thrown out and I think it will be eventually, end of story.
CursedRich
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom737 Posts
May 18 2012 18:28 GMT
#1187
On May 18 2012 22:04 Silvertine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2012 21:53 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
On May 18 2012 21:44 Silvertine wrote:
It's a shame that THC was found in his system because we all know the ridiculous response that your typical American jury would have: "A drugged-up black kid, he must have been dangerous or at least in a bad state of mind." When in actuality cannabis would make you less confrontational or violent.

A prime example of someone hypnotized by the media, and doing everything in their power to go with what most of the media says and other people say.

The media hypnotizes people into thinking that cannabis is harmless? What? I'm pretty sure the media as a whole has given the absolute opposite impression for roughly 50 years.

Show nested quote +
Sorry to tell you bro, but not everyone has the same mindset after smoking cannabis. Especially the varieties of kinds you may smoke....

I never claimed that people have the exact same reaction. But cannabis generally makes someone far less confrontational and more peaceful, that is a very well understood fact. Good luck finding any serious study that goes against that notion. And if you think there is a strain of cannabis that makes people violent then you are not familiar with the drug.

Show nested quote +
You have no idea what your talking about and im glad Zimmerman is free'd. The evidence shows very clearly that he was doing nothing but defending himself.

That's not true at all. If you think this is an open-and-shut case then you know nothing about it. Why do you think it's gone to trial in the first place?

Show nested quote +
Sadly, without this evidence people like you would have put this innocent mans life in the Death Chair.

That's a ridiculous accusation and you know it. I said absolutely nothing that would even remotely imply that I want Zimmerman to be executed. In reality I don't even believe in the death penalty.


Cannabis has been well documented to cause psychosis and paranoia and also people who are at risk of schizophrenia are likely to have this condition accelerated by its use.

I enjoy the odd joint but don't claim that its harmless, Ive been using it for many years and have seen it myself
Chill Winston......
sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
May 18 2012 18:43 GMT
#1188
On May 19 2012 02:37 CaptainCrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 02:21 patzernuk wrote:
You are not allowed to initiate a fight with someone and then shoot them in self defense... lol.

I don't know how anything else after that police report is relevant, tbh... the injuries to Zimmerman don't matter because he approached Martin in the first place. It was only a "life or death" fight because Zimmerman chose to engage him, he could have stayed in his car with the windows rolled up. I don't doubt he was scared personally but he chose the only action that could have resulted in injury to either party


Thats not true at all...

If his story is true, and it certainly seems like it is now, then Trayvon chose to make it physical by throwing the first punch and continuing to bash his head into the ground. Sure, you're right that he could have stayed in his car but Trayvon could have called him a name and left or simply gone home without saying anything at all....

Or he could have just said he was cutting through someones yard since it was raining and left it at that. There were plenty of decisions made by both of these men that lead to the situation. Just becuase Zimmerman got out of the car does not mean that he is still guilty, its kind of a last ditch effort to say that he's a racist cold-blooded killer in my opinion.


Yeah I see what you mean too. If you're getting your head bashed into the pavement by someone you think is a hoodlum then you're gonna wanna shoot them. Obviously the information available to him wasn't as much as we know now.
Zaqwert
Profile Joined June 2008
United States411 Posts
May 18 2012 18:55 GMT
#1189
I would say the lesson to be learned here is to not trust the media, they have no interest in truth, only in sensationalism. They report the story they want to report, facts be damned.

However this is lesson # 238,191 from this particular curriculum and people never learn and never hold the media accountable.

A few years ago it was the Duke lacross phony rape allegations, now it's this story, and in a few years it will be some other story.

The media will latch onto some imagined salacious angle on some story that turns out to be completely bogus.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
May 18 2012 19:00 GMT
#1190
On May 19 2012 03:14 Dark_Chill wrote:
Just a few things in the thread that arose:
Cannabis does not just make people more peaceful. What it does is make people paranoid, which could have easily affected Trayvon's mindest into thinking that he was in grave danger. I'm not sure how a mind under the influence would affect the Stand Your Ground law though.
Zimmerman having a gun doesn't matter. If he had not had his gun on him (and was not using the gun to threaten Trayvon), then the exact same thing would have happened. Well, Zimmerman might be dead or in extremely critical condition. Having the gun on him does not suddenly make him an aggressive individual looking for a conflict (especially if he did not show or use the gun until he was being beaten bloody).


To follow up with this, does anyone here think that if Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed, brandishing that weapon, that he would have approached him, and started a fist fight ? I think the mere existence of the physical altercation points that Zimmerman's gun had not been revealed. Who in the world, when unarmed, when 'stalked' by a gun-brandishing stranger is going to engage in a fist fight ? Not me, that's for sure, my ass would be hidden behind a bush as I call 911. Trayvon never called 911, did he ?
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
May 18 2012 19:06 GMT
#1191
On May 19 2012 04:00 Kaitlin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 03:14 Dark_Chill wrote:
Just a few things in the thread that arose:
Cannabis does not just make people more peaceful. What it does is make people paranoid, which could have easily affected Trayvon's mindest into thinking that he was in grave danger. I'm not sure how a mind under the influence would affect the Stand Your Ground law though.
Zimmerman having a gun doesn't matter. If he had not had his gun on him (and was not using the gun to threaten Trayvon), then the exact same thing would have happened. Well, Zimmerman might be dead or in extremely critical condition. Having the gun on him does not suddenly make him an aggressive individual looking for a conflict (especially if he did not show or use the gun until he was being beaten bloody).


To follow up with this, does anyone here think that if Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed, brandishing that weapon, that he would have approached him, and started a fist fight ? I think the mere existence of the physical altercation points that Zimmerman's gun had not been revealed. Who in the world, when unarmed, when 'stalked' by a gun-brandishing stranger is going to engage in a fist fight ? Not me, that's for sure, my ass would be hidden behind a bush as I call 911. Trayvon never called 911, did he ?


Bushes don't stop rounds of ammunition, but you're free to hide behind anything you'd like.

From the recent evidence finally being released, it appears that Martin followed the guy, Trayvon attacked Martin, and Martin shot him in self-defense.

I don't see him getting charged with anything as any of the evidence that I have seen posted isn't enough to convict him on anything unless the jury is full of morons and disregards the law.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
GnarlyArbitrage
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
575 Posts
May 18 2012 19:19 GMT
#1192
I was driving yesterday, and usually I catch a glimpse of those little church "billboard" sayings they always change every week. There was one that I saw that really struck me as odd...

"The Christian God is above all other gods"

Sure, Christians might believe in only one god, but to say that other gods do exist?

If it was "avoidable", Trayvon's death, then that's to say that if confronting a black teenager, be prepared for violence. If Zimmerman could've avoided killing Trayvon by staying in his car, doesn't that not mean that black teenagers are always violent when confronted? I'm not saying this as my voice, so don't get the wrong idea. I just find it very funny that it's all up to Zimmerman to make this conflict "avoidable".

Then, Trayvon wasn't invovled in any criminal act at the time? He was stoned! He just took part in a criminal act! Who knows just how long ago, and since he just took part in one, is he going to be taking part in another criminal act? I know that getting stoned isn't a gateway drug, but there's a lot of people who do smoke and do other things.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
May 18 2012 20:07 GMT
#1193
More details emerge in Trayvon Martin investigation

+ Show Spoiler +
Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, talking to him on the telephone, heard the teenager saying "get off, get off," in the moments before his cell phone cut off and he was shot dead, according to a recording of the girl's interview with a prosecutor released Friday.

Another witness, however, seems to put Martin on top of George Zimmerman for at least part of the struggle, according to another recording.

"Where I first walked out there, the black guy was on top, and the only reason I can tell that was because the guy that was on the ground under him at that point wrestling was definitely a lighter color," the witness, whose name has not been made public, said in the interview.

Martin was African-American. Zimmerman is a white Hispanic.
Does new evidence change Trayvon case?
'Still a strong case against Zimmerman'
Video of Martin before he died
Mark O'Mara on new evidence

The recordings provide the most detailed look yet into previously reported witness statements detailing the last moments of Martin's life.

Martin was shot to death February 26 while walking in the Sanford, Florida, neighborhood where he was staying during a visit with his father.

Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, is charged with second-degree murder in the death, which sparked nationwide protests and inflamed public passions over race relations and gun control.

The girl, whose name has not been made public, told Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda that Martin got away from the man, who turned out to be Zimmerman, but only temporarily.

He was out of breath from running away and scared, she said, and decided not to keep running because he was close to the house where he was staying.

And as Zimmerman drew closer, the girl said, Martin called out, "Why you following me for?" according to the recording.

"I hear this man, like this old man, say, 'What are you doing around here?' " the girl said.

The girl said she called out to Martin, asking what was happening, but he didn't answer. The next thing she heard was a bumping sound, followed by what might have been a scuffle.

"I could hear it a little bit, 'Get off, get off,' then the phone just hung up," the girl said.

The other witness said he heard loud noises outside his home that dark, wet night, and when he looked outside, he saw one person in dark clothing over someone who appeared to be wearing a red or white piece of apparel.

"I heard, 'Help, help, help,' and I yelled at them and said, 'Hey, cut it out,' " the witness told police. He then called 911.

Another witness interviewed by police said Zimmerman "looked like he had just gotten his butt whooped," according to a recording released by authorities. The witness also said Zimmerman seemed nonchalant about the shooting, "like it was nothing."

Zimmerman has claimed self-defense in the shooting, saying Martin charged him after the two exchanged words, knocking him to the ground and hitting his head repeatedly against a concrete sidewalk.

Prosecutors say Zimmerman profiled Martin as a criminal and killed him, even though he was doing nothing wrong.

The witness said he couldn't say what sparked the incident.

"I didn't see how it started; I didn't see how it ended. I just saw the part where they were in an altercation on the ground," the witness said.

The recordings and other documents released as part of the court case also touch on the racial component of the case.

In one recording, a former co-worker of Zimmerman's says Zimmerman made him the butt of a long-running office joke, ridiculing his Middle Eastern accent and bullying him in what the witness described as a juvenile but infuriating effort to fit in with other workers. In another, an anonymous caller tells a Sanford police officer that Zimmerman and his family are racists.

"I don't know what happened. I don't know at all, who this kid was or anything else," the woman said. "But I know George. And I know he does not like black people. He would start something. He's a very confrontational person."

Some people have also attributed a racial epithet to Zimmerman during his call with an emergency dispatcher. But an FBI analysis, released Thursday, determined that the word could not be definitively identified "due to weak signal level and poor recording quality."

Zimmerman's former attorneys and an audio expert said in April that they believed Zimmerman used the word "punks," not a slur.
Medical report lists Zimmerman injuries
Report details Zimmerman's injuries
New medical report may help Zimmerman
Firm cashing in with hoodie target

The recordings released Friday are the latest in a series of revelations from the official investigation into the shooting. Authorities are making details of the case publicly available as attorneys prepare for Zimmerman's trial.

Among the documents released was one filed with prosecutors by Sanford police two weeks after the shooting, urging Zimmerman's arrest.

New documents shed light on Trayvon Martin killing

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the police request to arrest Zimmerman said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."

Other documents released this week include Martin's autopsy report, a fire department report on Zimmerman's injuries and an FBI analysis of emergency calls in which someone can be heard screaming in the background.

The autopsy report showed that Martin died of a gunshot wound to the chest fired from within 36 inches and that he had traces of marijuana in his blood and urine.

In his 911 call just before the shooting, Zimmerman had speculated that the teen looked like he was "up to no good or he's on drugs or something."

Martin's blood contained THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, according to autopsy results released Thursday. The autopsy was conducted February 27, the day after the teenager was shot dead.

Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report. There also was a presumed positive test of cannabinoids in Martin's urine, according to the medical examiner's report. It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were.

No precise levels on the urine were released.

Dr. Michael Policastro, a toxicologist, cautioned against reading too much into the blood THC levels, adding that one cannot make a direct correlation between those findings and a level of intoxication.

He also said that levels of THC, which can linger in a person's system for days, can spike after death in certain areas of the body because of redistribution.

And Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addiction specialist who hosts a show on CNN sister network HLN, added that marijuana typically does not make users more aggressive.

Concentrations of THC routinely rise to 100 to 200 nanograms per milliliter after marijuana use, though it typically falls to below 5 ng/ml within three hours of it being smoked, according to information on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website.

While some states have zero-tolerance policies for any drug traces for driving while impaired, others set certain benchmarks, the website of California's Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs notes. In Nevada, that equates to 2 ng/ml for THC and 5 ng/ml for THC-COOH, also known as marijuana metabolite. The cutoff level in Ohio is 2 ng/ml for THC and 50 ng/ml for THC-COOH.

What happened that night?

Martin's father, Tracy, had taken his son with him to Sanford, about four hours away from the boy's home and where the father's fiancee lived, after the teen was suspended for 10 days from Michael M. Krop High School in Miami.

According to records obtained by The Miami Herald, Martin had been suspended from school three times: once for writing graffiti on a door, another time for school truancy and the last time because of drug residue found in his backpack.

Just before the shooting, Zimmerman, 28, called 911 to complain about a suspicious person in his neighborhood.

In the call, Zimmerman said he was following Martin after the teen started to run, prompting the dispatcher to tell him, "We don't need you to do that."

Prosecutors say Zimmerman disregarded the advice, leading to a confrontation between the two.

A screaming voice could be heard on other 911 calls placed by neighbors, with some speculating that those screams came from Martin and others that they belonged to Zimmerman. As part of its analysis released this week, FBI did not make a final determination either way, citing several reasons, including the fact they came during "an extreme emotional state," that there weren't enough words to make a good comparison and that the sound quality was low and distant.

FBI analysis -- Zimmerman's 911 call (pdf -- strong language)

Zimmerman claimed, according a police report released earlier, that he'd been "assaulted (by Martin) and his head was struck on the pavement."

According a report from the Sanford Fire Department, released Thursday, Zimmerman had "abrasions to his forehead," "bleeding/tenderness to his nose" and a "small laceration to the back of his head" when emergency personnel arrived at the scene at 7:27 p.m., six minutes after they were first called.

By that time, Martin had no apparent pulse, according to the fire and EMS report. Emergency personnel attempted mouth-to-mask resuscitation and chest compressions, to no avail. He was pronounced dead at 7:30 p.m.

The case put a spotlight on race relations, spurring protests nationwide and drawing prominent civil rights leaders to central Florida denouncing the actions of Sanford police and calling for Zimmerman's arrest. Special prosecutor Angela Corey announced he'd been charged on April 11, weeks after Sanford police initially declined to do so.

The case also raised questions about gun laws, as well as the merits of the "stand your ground" law in Florida and similar laws in other states that allow people to use deadly force anywhere they feel a reasonable threat of serious injury or death.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
Romantic
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1844 Posts
May 18 2012 20:16 GMT
#1194
On May 19 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
More details emerge in Trayvon Martin investigation

+ Show Spoiler +
Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, talking to him on the telephone, heard the teenager saying "get off, get off," in the moments before his cell phone cut off and he was shot dead, according to a recording of the girl's interview with a prosecutor released Friday.

Another witness, however, seems to put Martin on top of George Zimmerman for at least part of the struggle, according to another recording.

"Where I first walked out there, the black guy was on top, and the only reason I can tell that was because the guy that was on the ground under him at that point wrestling was definitely a lighter color," the witness, whose name has not been made public, said in the interview.

Martin was African-American. Zimmerman is a white Hispanic.
Does new evidence change Trayvon case?
'Still a strong case against Zimmerman'
Video of Martin before he died
Mark O'Mara on new evidence

The recordings provide the most detailed look yet into previously reported witness statements detailing the last moments of Martin's life.

Martin was shot to death February 26 while walking in the Sanford, Florida, neighborhood where he was staying during a visit with his father.

Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, is charged with second-degree murder in the death, which sparked nationwide protests and inflamed public passions over race relations and gun control.

The girl, whose name has not been made public, told Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda that Martin got away from the man, who turned out to be Zimmerman, but only temporarily.

He was out of breath from running away and scared, she said, and decided not to keep running because he was close to the house where he was staying.

And as Zimmerman drew closer, the girl said, Martin called out, "Why you following me for?" according to the recording.

"I hear this man, like this old man, say, 'What are you doing around here?' " the girl said.

The girl said she called out to Martin, asking what was happening, but he didn't answer. The next thing she heard was a bumping sound, followed by what might have been a scuffle.

"I could hear it a little bit, 'Get off, get off,' then the phone just hung up," the girl said.

The other witness said he heard loud noises outside his home that dark, wet night, and when he looked outside, he saw one person in dark clothing over someone who appeared to be wearing a red or white piece of apparel.

"I heard, 'Help, help, help,' and I yelled at them and said, 'Hey, cut it out,' " the witness told police. He then called 911.

Another witness interviewed by police said Zimmerman "looked like he had just gotten his butt whooped," according to a recording released by authorities. The witness also said Zimmerman seemed nonchalant about the shooting, "like it was nothing."

Zimmerman has claimed self-defense in the shooting, saying Martin charged him after the two exchanged words, knocking him to the ground and hitting his head repeatedly against a concrete sidewalk.

Prosecutors say Zimmerman profiled Martin as a criminal and killed him, even though he was doing nothing wrong.

The witness said he couldn't say what sparked the incident.

"I didn't see how it started; I didn't see how it ended. I just saw the part where they were in an altercation on the ground," the witness said.

The recordings and other documents released as part of the court case also touch on the racial component of the case.

In one recording, a former co-worker of Zimmerman's says Zimmerman made him the butt of a long-running office joke, ridiculing his Middle Eastern accent and bullying him in what the witness described as a juvenile but infuriating effort to fit in with other workers. In another, an anonymous caller tells a Sanford police officer that Zimmerman and his family are racists.

"I don't know what happened. I don't know at all, who this kid was or anything else," the woman said. "But I know George. And I know he does not like black people. He would start something. He's a very confrontational person."

Some people have also attributed a racial epithet to Zimmerman during his call with an emergency dispatcher. But an FBI analysis, released Thursday, determined that the word could not be definitively identified "due to weak signal level and poor recording quality."

Zimmerman's former attorneys and an audio expert said in April that they believed Zimmerman used the word "punks," not a slur.
Medical report lists Zimmerman injuries
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The recordings released Friday are the latest in a series of revelations from the official investigation into the shooting. Authorities are making details of the case publicly available as attorneys prepare for Zimmerman's trial.

Among the documents released was one filed with prosecutors by Sanford police two weeks after the shooting, urging Zimmerman's arrest.

New documents shed light on Trayvon Martin killing

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the police request to arrest Zimmerman said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."

Other documents released this week include Martin's autopsy report, a fire department report on Zimmerman's injuries and an FBI analysis of emergency calls in which someone can be heard screaming in the background.

The autopsy report showed that Martin died of a gunshot wound to the chest fired from within 36 inches and that he had traces of marijuana in his blood and urine.

In his 911 call just before the shooting, Zimmerman had speculated that the teen looked like he was "up to no good or he's on drugs or something."

Martin's blood contained THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, according to autopsy results released Thursday. The autopsy was conducted February 27, the day after the teenager was shot dead.

Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report. There also was a presumed positive test of cannabinoids in Martin's urine, according to the medical examiner's report. It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were.

No precise levels on the urine were released.

Dr. Michael Policastro, a toxicologist, cautioned against reading too much into the blood THC levels, adding that one cannot make a direct correlation between those findings and a level of intoxication.

He also said that levels of THC, which can linger in a person's system for days, can spike after death in certain areas of the body because of redistribution.

And Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addiction specialist who hosts a show on CNN sister network HLN, added that marijuana typically does not make users more aggressive.

Concentrations of THC routinely rise to 100 to 200 nanograms per milliliter after marijuana use, though it typically falls to below 5 ng/ml within three hours of it being smoked, according to information on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website.

While some states have zero-tolerance policies for any drug traces for driving while impaired, others set certain benchmarks, the website of California's Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs notes. In Nevada, that equates to 2 ng/ml for THC and 5 ng/ml for THC-COOH, also known as marijuana metabolite. The cutoff level in Ohio is 2 ng/ml for THC and 50 ng/ml for THC-COOH.

What happened that night?

Martin's father, Tracy, had taken his son with him to Sanford, about four hours away from the boy's home and where the father's fiancee lived, after the teen was suspended for 10 days from Michael M. Krop High School in Miami.

According to records obtained by The Miami Herald, Martin had been suspended from school three times: once for writing graffiti on a door, another time for school truancy and the last time because of drug residue found in his backpack.

Just before the shooting, Zimmerman, 28, called 911 to complain about a suspicious person in his neighborhood.

In the call, Zimmerman said he was following Martin after the teen started to run, prompting the dispatcher to tell him, "We don't need you to do that."

Prosecutors say Zimmerman disregarded the advice, leading to a confrontation between the two.

A screaming voice could be heard on other 911 calls placed by neighbors, with some speculating that those screams came from Martin and others that they belonged to Zimmerman. As part of its analysis released this week, FBI did not make a final determination either way, citing several reasons, including the fact they came during "an extreme emotional state," that there weren't enough words to make a good comparison and that the sound quality was low and distant.

FBI analysis -- Zimmerman's 911 call (pdf -- strong language)

Zimmerman claimed, according a police report released earlier, that he'd been "assaulted (by Martin) and his head was struck on the pavement."

According a report from the Sanford Fire Department, released Thursday, Zimmerman had "abrasions to his forehead," "bleeding/tenderness to his nose" and a "small laceration to the back of his head" when emergency personnel arrived at the scene at 7:27 p.m., six minutes after they were first called.

By that time, Martin had no apparent pulse, according to the fire and EMS report. Emergency personnel attempted mouth-to-mask resuscitation and chest compressions, to no avail. He was pronounced dead at 7:30 p.m.

The case put a spotlight on race relations, spurring protests nationwide and drawing prominent civil rights leaders to central Florida denouncing the actions of Sanford police and calling for Zimmerman's arrest. Special prosecutor Angela Corey announced he'd been charged on April 11, weeks after Sanford police initially declined to do so.

The case also raised questions about gun laws, as well as the merits of the "stand your ground" law in Florida and similar laws in other states that allow people to use deadly force anywhere they feel a reasonable threat of serious injury or death.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html


She is saying Trayvon ran away, but bumped in to Zimmerman again, at which point Trayvon was the first to initiate verbal contact by asking why he (Zimmerman) was following him?

Zimmerman's call does have a part where Zimmerman says, "He ran off" and he proceeds to say he is scared Trayvon might be hiding near him so he doesnt want to give out his address aloud or whatever it was. They might be describing the same thing.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
May 18 2012 21:11 GMT
#1195
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
May 18 2012 21:16 GMT
#1196
On May 19 2012 06:11 Crushinator wrote:
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?

usually, the defendant has to prove it because its an affirmative defense, but Florida has the weird law that puts the burden on the prosecutor to disprove it. also, the defendant has the option to file a motion before trial to dismiss the case because the prosecutor can't meet their burden to disprove the self defense claim. Florida has a very strong law allowing self defense, which is why its getting so much attention.

as for "culpa in causa," Florida does have something similar. if you are the initial aggressor, you can't claim self defense EXCEPT if you meet the following requirements:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

in simpler terms, if you start a fist-fight and they pull out a gun, you can respond in kind if you don't have the option to retreat, or, after they pulled out the gun, you said "hey man, im sorry, i'll stop" but they come at you anyways.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
May 18 2012 21:39 GMT
#1197
On May 19 2012 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 06:11 Crushinator wrote:
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?

usually, the defendant has to prove it because its an affirmative defense, but Florida has the weird law that puts the burden on the prosecutor to disprove it. also, the defendant has the option to file a motion before trial to dismiss the case because the prosecutor can't meet their burden to disprove the self defense claim. Florida has a very strong law allowing self defense, which is why its getting so much attention.

as for "culpa in causa," Florida does have something similar. if you are the initial aggressor, you can't claim self defense EXCEPT if you meet the following requirements:

Show nested quote +
a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

in simpler terms, if you start a fist-fight and they pull out a gun, you can respond in kind if you don't have the option to retreat, or, after they pulled out the gun, you said "hey man, im sorry, i'll stop" but they come at you anyways.


Thanks for clearing that up.

The Dutch culpa in causa principle is quite loosely defined, and many forms of confrontational behavior can potentially fall under it. Want I'm getting at is, even if the court finds that Zimmerman did not iniate the physical altercation, can he still be found at fault if his behavior was unnecessarily confrontational?
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
May 18 2012 21:51 GMT
#1198
On May 19 2012 06:39 Crushinator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:
On May 19 2012 06:11 Crushinator wrote:
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?

usually, the defendant has to prove it because its an affirmative defense, but Florida has the weird law that puts the burden on the prosecutor to disprove it. also, the defendant has the option to file a motion before trial to dismiss the case because the prosecutor can't meet their burden to disprove the self defense claim. Florida has a very strong law allowing self defense, which is why its getting so much attention.

as for "culpa in causa," Florida does have something similar. if you are the initial aggressor, you can't claim self defense EXCEPT if you meet the following requirements:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

in simpler terms, if you start a fist-fight and they pull out a gun, you can respond in kind if you don't have the option to retreat, or, after they pulled out the gun, you said "hey man, im sorry, i'll stop" but they come at you anyways.


Thanks for clearing that up.

The Dutch culpa in causa principle is quite loosely defined, and many forms of confrontational behavior can potentially fall under it. Want I'm getting at is, even if the court finds that Zimmerman did not iniate the physical altercation, can he still be found at fault if his behavior was unnecessarily confrontational?

here is the jury instruction (some at least, the full instruction is in the op.

+ Show Spoiler +
A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent
1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or
2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.

However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:
1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of (applicable forcible felony); or
2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:
a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.


to answer your question (i hope): if zimmerman initiated the confrontation, he can still claim self defense if either (1) he didn't provoke force against himself (e.g., he went up to trayvon and said "what are you doing here?" as opposed to going up to trayvon and pushing him); or (2) he provoked force against himself (he was the initial aggressor), but one of the two factors (discussed above) are met.

what makes zimmerman an "initial aggressor" is not defined (as far as i know), but you can clearly set some black-white comparisons: yelling at him from 20 feet away is probably not an initial aggressor, pulling a gun on him definitely is. the gray area is probably pretty large.

does that answer it?
Felnarion
Profile Joined December 2011
442 Posts
May 18 2012 21:53 GMT
#1199
On May 19 2012 06:39 Crushinator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:
On May 19 2012 06:11 Crushinator wrote:
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?

usually, the defendant has to prove it because its an affirmative defense, but Florida has the weird law that puts the burden on the prosecutor to disprove it. also, the defendant has the option to file a motion before trial to dismiss the case because the prosecutor can't meet their burden to disprove the self defense claim. Florida has a very strong law allowing self defense, which is why its getting so much attention.

as for "culpa in causa," Florida does have something similar. if you are the initial aggressor, you can't claim self defense EXCEPT if you meet the following requirements:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

in simpler terms, if you start a fist-fight and they pull out a gun, you can respond in kind if you don't have the option to retreat, or, after they pulled out the gun, you said "hey man, im sorry, i'll stop" but they come at you anyways.


Thanks for clearing that up.

The Dutch culpa in causa principle is quite loosely defined, and many forms of confrontational behavior can potentially fall under it. Want I'm getting at is, even if the court finds that Zimmerman did not iniate the physical altercation, can he still be found at fault if his behavior was unnecessarily confrontational?


Yeah, I'd think so. But bear in mind, being a douche isn't necessarily guilt. For instance, I can't imagine anyone convicting him solely on the fact that he said something like "What the fuck are you doing here?"

But if he came up with his gun drawn, or being particularly intimidating, or anyhting like that, I'm sure they could get him with something.

Even the girlfriend's testimony though, doesn't show that he approached in that manner.
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-18 21:59:58
May 18 2012 21:56 GMT
#1200
On May 19 2012 06:51 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2012 06:39 Crushinator wrote:
On May 19 2012 06:16 dAPhREAk wrote:
On May 19 2012 06:11 Crushinator wrote:
In US law, if it is proven you have killed someone and you claim self-defense, do you have to prove that it was self-defense, or does the prosecution have to prove that it wasn't self defense? Where does the burden of proof lie, or does that concept not apply?

Also in Dutch law there is the 'culpa in causa' principle, where if you are guilty of causing the violent situation, self-defense does not apply. Does the US have a similar principle?

usually, the defendant has to prove it because its an affirmative defense, but Florida has the weird law that puts the burden on the prosecutor to disprove it. also, the defendant has the option to file a motion before trial to dismiss the case because the prosecutor can't meet their burden to disprove the self defense claim. Florida has a very strong law allowing self defense, which is why its getting so much attention.

as for "culpa in causa," Florida does have something similar. if you are the initial aggressor, you can't claim self defense EXCEPT if you meet the following requirements:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

in simpler terms, if you start a fist-fight and they pull out a gun, you can respond in kind if you don't have the option to retreat, or, after they pulled out the gun, you said "hey man, im sorry, i'll stop" but they come at you anyways.


Thanks for clearing that up.

The Dutch culpa in causa principle is quite loosely defined, and many forms of confrontational behavior can potentially fall under it. Want I'm getting at is, even if the court finds that Zimmerman did not iniate the physical altercation, can he still be found at fault if his behavior was unnecessarily confrontational?

here is the jury instruction (some at least, the full instruction is in the op.

+ Show Spoiler +
A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent
1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or
2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.

However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:
1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of (applicable forcible felony); or
2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:
a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great 63 bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).
b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.


to answer your question (i hope): if zimmerman initiated the confrontation, he can still claim self defense if either (1) he didn't provoke force against himself (e.g., he went up to trayvon and said "what are you doing here?" as opposed to going up to trayvon and pushing him); or (2) he provoked force against himself (he was the initial aggressor), but one of the two factors (discussed above) are met.

what makes zimmerman an "initial aggressor" is not defined (as far as i know), but you can clearly set some black-white comparisons: yelling at him from 20 feet away is probably not an initial aggressor, pulling a gun on him definitely is. the gray area is probably pretty large.

does that answer it?


Yes, I think it does. Will be interesting to see if this grey area is explored.

Edit: I did read the jury instruction you put in the OP, thanks for making that easy to find. But the details were not completely clear to me so its nice to get insight from people educated in law.
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