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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:28 HappyChris wrote: The US electoral system is not really a democracy anymore. More like legalised corruption. Its sad really what has happend to US. I bet somebody said that same exact thing in 1912. Actually, probably every year since George Washington left office... | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:39 ampson wrote: We vote so that we don't elect people like Santorum and Bachmann. We seem to be failing then. | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:39 ampson wrote: We vote so that we don't elect people like Santorum and Bachmann. The fact that the possibility exists says a lot about the state of things. fuckin a | ||
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preZzle
Germany223 Posts
What's really missing is an option on the ballot paper that says "none of the above". I think atleast in Germany you can just mark two options to make your vote invalid, so your vote gets counted, but not for any politician/party; could be wrong though. Isnt that possible in the U.S. ? | ||
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lithiumdeuteride
96 Posts
1) First-past-the-post voting system The first-past-the-post voting system means that the presence of a popular 'spoiler' candidate reduces the chance that the spoiler candidate's nearest rival will be elected. The solution is to use a different voting system, such as Runoff or Schulze. 2) The electoral college There is no good reason why this should exist. The sooner it is eliminated, the better. It renders giant swathes of votes irrelevant, and also incentivizes shady practices like temporarily moving to a different state to vote. It's just like gerrymandering, except it was set once and never changed. 3) Political parties The Founders made no provisions for political parties. However, they couldn't have forseen that the first-past-the-post voting system they chose makes a two-party system almost inevitable. Once the voting system is changed, the grasp of political parties should weaken. 4) Campaign funding When the largest campaign donors dictate the pool of candidates, it's highly unlikely those candidates will be representative of the majority of voters. A dramatic reformation is needed in this area to make funding both limited and transparent. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
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Smat
United States301 Posts
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:04 Uranium wrote: edit: Holy shit, idiocracy is real. There was even a book written on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve#Policy_recommendations That book has been pretty hotly criticized, it assumes that ("genetic") intelligence correlates with income, among other things. Before stats start getting thrown about that indicate that people that score higher on IQ tests generally have higher education and statistically higher income, the point in the book was about 'genetic' IQ, or the supposed genetic basis for IQ without reference to any sociological factors, so the evidence doesn't really exist to support the conclusions. | ||
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sixfour
England11062 Posts
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Competent
United States406 Posts
I will just set back and wait to see the collapse of the American economy and be the asshole to say, "I told you so". | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:45 Smat wrote: All of you people saying "voting doesn't matter, the president is elected by the electoral college anyway" need to go take a class in US government. Where do you think I got my government hating ideas in the first place? | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:48 mynameisgreat11 wrote: Where do you think I got my government hating ideas in the first place? This. Was funny as shit in my AP class when my teacher would say things like "Now this is illegal, the government can't do this" and I would say "So you're saying that beacuse it's illegal, then they won't do it and haven't done it? That's that saying it's illegal to kill someone so no one ever does it" | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
Not voting is a vote for extreme partys | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
Here's the problem: if everyone has that mentality nothing will ever change. I'd consider myself fairly cynical. However, I'm not so cynical as to say that all the elections are rigged, no one actually counts votes, and it is all a big conspiracy. So if our votes actually do matter, it is up to us to change the system. While I certainly agree that the people in power make it hard to do this (this is how it has ALWAYS been, and ALWAYS will be. People in power always use their power to resist change, because change will usually result in a loss of their power. It is nothing new, people have always been that way and probably always will be. I don't even really blame them for it). The system is screwed up because people did nothing and let it get to this state. So doing nothing is going to fix it? Bullshit. Get out there and at least vote. It is the least you can do. And really you (and I) should be doing much more than that. Last presidential election was the first I voted in, and the state I lived in actually came surprisingly close to going to Obama (it still went red, but it was closer than it had been in years). I'm not saying my vote did that, but I think enough people stopped being cyncial to actually turn out and vote, at least for a small time. Change isn't easy. People give up because it doesn't rain twenties the second they go vote for someone and that someone wins. The people resisting change have a lot at stake and a lot of power to resist change. That doesn't mean change can't happen, however, and if history has taught me anything, it is that change is inevitable. What that change means is up to us to shape. | ||
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HappyChris
1534 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:35 DannyJ wrote: I bet somebody said that same exact thing in 1912. Actually, probably every year since George Washington left office... Not really but you hole political system has changed. Dwight D. Eisenhower would have been a democrat today since you political views has gone so fare right its allmost insane. USA was an amasing country from 1940 to 60 but then something happend. And well you middleclass will continoue to die unless something drastic happend I just dont see it considering the elite controls everything from media to the art of printing money! | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
I think Marco Rubio is a perfect example of a politician using his means and effort to change the political leaning of a state/population in a positive way. If you aren't familiar Rubio is Cuban American republican senator from Florida with influence NEVER seen in a freshman senator. He was the one who told the R Primary candidates to chill out with the offense Immigration talk, and they all listened. He's given the conservative Cuban population (which is massive and previously not represented because they all voted Dem, because the old FL republican guard was pretty anti Cuban) If you are upset that your 1 single vote isn't having a big enough impact, then put some effort into it. I think the amount of effort it takes to vote (none) is perfectly equal to the amount of power in a single vote (none). Now if you can use the effort of 1 person (you) and work hard, then the amount of change you create should be pretty equal to the effort you put in (Rubio put in a ton of effort and changed the entire landscape of Florida Politics) Maybe I'm just missing your point, but if you think ONLY the super rich can play in state/federal politics I think you are very incorrect. Yes you need probably close to a 7 figure budget to win a senate seat, and probably 50x that to win a presidential race, but that doesn't mean your net worth has to be in the ultra rich/mogul category, or even that you need them in your pocket to win. And State senator/representative campaigns can be run on a tenth or less than a federal senate campaign. I see money and effort as more or less analogous (as does the supreme court lololol citizens united joke). So if you are dissatisfied with your impact on the political system, put more effort into it. If you're ultra rich its easy because you already put in effort to get tons of cash , just pay 50k to watch Obama eat dinner. If you aren't then you need to put some man hours in campaigning; going door to door, making phone calls, setting up town hall meetings, whatever. But to think there is a way to eliminate money from politics, and that that would somehow increase the weight of any 1 individual vote, is a pretty naive point of view, and not one that fruitful discussion can come from Imo. | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:52 HardlyNever wrote: I used to have a similar view as the OP. I lived in the South, and the south will basically always vote republican no matter what. Why bother voting? Here's the problem: if everyone has that mentality nothing will ever change. I'd consider myself fairly cynical. However, I'm not so cynical as to say that all the elections are rigged, no one actually counts votes, and it is all a big conspiracy. So if our votes actually do matter, it is up to us to change the system. While I certainly agree that the people in power make it hard to do this (this is how it has ALWAYS been, and ALWAYS will be. People in power always use their power to resist change, because change will usually result in a loss of their power. It is nothing new, people have always been that way and probably always will be. I don't even really blame them for it). The system is screwed up because people did nothing and let it get to this state. So doing nothing is going to fix it? Bullshit. Get out there and at least vote. It is the least you can do. And really you (and I) should be doing much more than that. Last presidential election was the first I voted in, and the state I lived in actually came surprisingly close to going to Obama (it still went red, but it was closer than it had been in years). I'm not saying my vote did that, but I think enough people stopped being cyncial to actually turn out and vote, at least for a small time. Change isn't easy. People give up because it doesn't rain twenties the second they go vote for someone and that someone wins. The people resisting change have a lot at stake and a lot of power to resist change. That doesn't mean change can't happen, however, and if history has taught me anything, it is that change is inevitable. What that change means is up to us to shape. I think change will require some sort of catalyst, like an addict hitting rock-bottom before recovery can begin. Maybe something along the lines of Great Depression, 2nd edition? I don't think voting, protesting, or any other thing an individual can do will make a difference. | ||
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partisan
United States783 Posts
Democracy is not a passive system, you have to be involved for it to work correctly. The reason that interest groups and the monied class are having such an easy time pursuing their agenda is because they have no counter balance. If you think the system isn't working for you then you have a responsibility to change it. Go vote. Start a petition. Do something other than create a forum post for something that has been discussed ad nauseum. | ||
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Apocalyptic
United States131 Posts
*Edit* Guy above me nailed it on the head | ||
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