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On October 22 2011 04:10 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:08 wBsKillian wrote:
Seemed to me that the situation got better in Iraq, but leaving this early? I don't have a good feeling about this, it could become worse if they leave...
my impression is that Afghanistan was going better then Iraq. To me seems like cutting losses in iraq and still focusing on Afghanistan the one close to iran. ofc i could have that backwards imma go check...
I'm sorry but this is just so far from the truth. It seems to me a lot of people's thoughts about the Middle East have stagnated since 2008. I've even heard people claiming the US is losing the war in Iraq.
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as much as its good that we won't be in iraq, he'll just send those troops to Iran or Afghanistan by February. obama is just another puppet doing what the "advisors" tell him to. same as the last dozen presidents. the u.s. needs a leader that isn't interested in empire building and is interested in fixing real issues instead of creating them.
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On October 22 2011 04:25 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 04:10 semantics wrote:On October 22 2011 04:08 wBsKillian wrote:
Seemed to me that the situation got better in Iraq, but leaving this early? I don't have a good feeling about this, it could become worse if they leave...
my impression is that Afghanistan was going better then Iraq. To me seems like cutting losses in iraq and still focusing on Afghanistan the one close to iran. ofc i could have that backwards imma go check... I'm sorry but this is just so far from the truth. It seems to me a lot of people's thoughts about the Middle East have stagnated since 2008. I've even heard people claiming the US is losing the war in Iraq.
Haha yup about 2008 was the last time i listened to reports on a regular basis which is also why my memory is fuzzy on it. Sad truth is outside of small segments the news doesn't cover it much,
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Well, good news doesnt make news, so the fact that Iraq has been doing very well (relatively) means alot of people just think it still sucks.
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Before departing we were treated to the excessive hospitality of the USO crew. Tables of items free for the taking were set up; snacks and food, cards, toothpaste, and various assorted novelties to appease the occasionally suspended fear and reluctance of soldiers preparing for war. We were given a quick briefing. They collected all lighters and knives before allowing us to board the plane with our semi-automatic rifles in hand. On the way to the plane we were ambushed by eagerly patriotic Americans handing out and waving American flags, and chanting the feel-good cliché mantras of "Thank you, Good luck, Thank you for serving, Take care..." As though the enlistment bonus were not sufficient compensation.
Life on a cot in a large tent with three inches of personal space in every direction is surprisingly palatable contrasted with the vicious heat outside. Some soldiers even quit smoking to avoid standing in the heat. What for years tobacco cessation campaigns, classes, and laws failed to do, the Kuwaiti sun accomplished in less than a week. While in the grasp of the heat, all desires are leveled and replaced with a singular purpose: to escape it.
We flew over the Iraqi desert. Upon first sight, a landscape devoid of mountains or trees, only plumes of black smoke rising from a barren, yellow wasteland. This is a land forsaken by God. An inhospitable and tortured land, who returns the suffering it has received upon its inhabitants. Upon first sight of this wasteland, extremism did not appear so extreme. Here, extremes are the norm. Extreme temperatures, disparity between worthless dust and black gold, religious and political civil war.
The FOB was a world of dust, concrete, and machinery, a constant hum of generators and the percussion of rotor blades chopping through the air. My only connection to the past was the cloudless blue sky. I walked into the first portable toilet I found and saw graffiti and words scrawled across the walls. “I hate this place!” It was a warm welcome. As I walked back to the tent, a soldier spoke to me.
“Welcome to Kalsu. Hey, it could be worse man. Just keep lying to yourself everyday and tell yourself you are doing great things.”
Who the hell is this guy talking to me? I just ignored him and walked on.
The next day we rested in the tent. One of the air conditioners was broken, and we lay on our bunks sweating, the noon sun beating down on the heavy tarps above us. Finally, the stereotypically recourseful Gutierrez managed to get the air working again, and we had a few minutes of cool air, until the power went out and we had to sweat it out again.
This is going to be rough, I thought. This is going to be a very long deployment. We walked to chow and counted the craters in the ground where mortars had struck. Back in the tent, the silence of the night was periodically broken by the loud crack of artillery. Bright red flares lit up the sky and slowly floated down, faded away and returned the darkness for only a moment.
You didn't admit things were bad. You were an inferior person if you ever complained. If you were macho-tough, nothing bothered you, and you never thought bad thoughts. It was a brilliant system of self-deception. It was a cliché to repeat over and over again; “When something needs to be done, I don’t complain, I just do it. Because complaining doesn’t change anything.”
The first time I was shot at, it was by British soldiers. As their convoy rode by in the distance, someone on the FOB did a test fire. Apparently they didn't know the FOB was there, so they fired back. The military was like any other goverment institution: it exemplified incompetence.
The Iraqis hit us at noon every day. It was like clockwork. They were trying to hit the dining facility at lunch time, killing as many of us as they could. Luckily, they were a horrible shot. And still, we lined up every day and crowded into the building, playing russian roulette in exchange for a meal. It wasn't like we could go to McDonalds instead. You hear the whistling crescendo, and wait for the dart to hit the board. We know when and where they plan to attack every day, and yet we can't stop them? What the fuck is this?
Finally they succeeded. You walk into the DFAC, and a huge gaping hole sits where the wall and roof used to be. Sunlight pours in, the flourescent lights flicker, and the tiles on the ceiling hang down in disarray. The mirrors in the gym next door were all shattered. But of course, it wasn't the loss of infrastructure we cared about.
The West lives in a bubble. A stable, calm, bubble, green with well-watered lawns. A convenient bubble, where they can be free to make laws and rules and worry themselves with moral indignation at all they see wrong with the world. All values and morals and ethics had been drilled into me since birth, but in truth such things were nothing more than wishful thinking, human delusions to contrast reality. At bottom, life is survival, and nothing more. That is part of growing up, in a way, parting with all of the well intentioned bullshit that society stuffs into the youth. They all want their children to believe in Santa Claus. But here, I was seeing life and the world as it truly was outside of the bubbles: imperfect, messy, violent, ruthless, dirty, poor. It was almost liberating.
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On October 22 2011 04:28 Dbla08 wrote:
as much as its good that we won't be in iraq, he'll just send those troops to Iran or Afghanistan by February. obama is just another puppet doing what the "advisors" tell him to. same as the last dozen presidents. the u.s. needs a leader that isn't interested in empire building and is interested in fixing real issues instead of creating them.
Iran is a real issue. In my opinion, the US never should have meddled with Iraq and attacked it's real enemies, Iran and/or Saudi Arabia.
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Iraq could easily fragement into 3+ separate tribal states. Kurd/Sunni/Shia
Look at a map. Draw circles around the major oil fields. And that would be pretty darn close to being a very likely scenario how things shake out.
Each state would have 2+ pipeline or tanker routes to get their oil out of their region.
Playing favorites with Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia pulling at those 3 minor states is really no-win.
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I'm expecting us to maintain a base in Iraq tho as we've done in the past with other potential threat governments.
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Convenient timing....
Still thrilled to hear it ^_^
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We're pulling out of Iraq, but we still have troops in Afghanistan..
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Gotta let Iraq run its course just like Libya is going to.
Having troops in Afghanistan can still be justified.^
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I do believe this is the third time Barack Hussein Obama has said he will pull the troops out of Iraq.
My bets are on war with Syria and Iran before this comes to pass.
On October 22 2011 02:04 Newbistic wrote:
Hmm, time will tell what kind of nation Iraq will become.
A Sunni muslim dicatorship (edit: with sharia law theocracy).
jus' sayin'.
GL HF
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Well we kind of overstayed, I feel like we wasted a good 6-7 years doing nothing. I mean i don't agree with the initial invasion, and not clear on all the details of what we have done, and honestly i don't care, but this is really late. It's good that it's finally done though.
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I wonder what Fox News will make of this...
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On October 22 2011 02:09 AcuWill wrote:
Trying to win an election.
This still makes Obama a liar to his base. He ran on the ticket of getting out and outlined how he was going to do it and never once proceeded with what he said.
My god, some of you are so pessimistic it makes me hope we never have to meet in person. I'd probably commit suicide from all of the negativity.
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Yay for this....too bad Obama wasn't up for election this year or the year prior...
Hate to say it, but this is part of Obama's bid to get re-elected. I'm not saying that the troops should be there and this is a bad thing, but its political. I'm truly happy they are coming home.
Obama getting troops home = happy homeland = votes...
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Funny. 2012 was the date Bush gave for a complete withdrawal to begin with.
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I just hope it doesn't leave Iraq really unstable... I don't know enough about it though, that kind of stuff is difficult to find out.
If it is indeed it all coming to an end, then great!
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On October 22 2011 04:52 Coraz wrote:I do believe this is the third time Barack Hussein Obama has said he will pull the troops out of Iraq. My bets are on war with Syria and Iran before this comes to pass. Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:04 Newbistic wrote:
Hmm, time will tell what kind of nation Iraq will become. A Sunni muslim dicatorship (edit: with sharia law theocracy). jus' sayin'. GL HF
A sunni muslim dictatorship with ties to the US, which makes it completely alright!
Supporting the US by buying their obsolete fighters for absurd prices (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15083193) and likely by outsourcing the reconstruction of basic infrastructure and oil exploration of their country to US companies.
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On October 22 2011 04:56 Mortality wrote:
Funny. 2012 was the date Bush gave for a complete withdrawal to begin with.
Bush only signed a status of forces agreement that said the US would withdraw by 2011 with no real plan for how it would be done. The general expectation with the signing among officials in both countries was that some way would be found to extend the presence of American forces, as the Iraqi military was not yet developed enough to defend its borders and because levels of violence and turmoil within Iraq remained high. It was basically signed with a wink and a nod.
Now, the Iraqi government wanted the US to stand past that date since they still had the same general expectation as during the signing. Obama and the military, however, didn't want to stay past the agreed upon deadline since they had already had a plan for how to get out of there. The only way they would agree to stay is if the soldiers were given legal immunity. This led to lengthy negotiations that broke down as expected. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top brass have repeatedly said any deal to keep U.S. troops in Iraq beyond the withdrawal deadline would require a guarantee of legal protection for American soldiers.
So yeah, this WAS Obama's victory, not Bush's.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/iraq/status-of-forces-agreement/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/world/meast/iraq-us-troops/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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EPT
