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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
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4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
I mean sure, the times of princesses were really romantic - Marrying a 9y old Virgin you've never met you've been given. The breakup talks must have been real fun too fun too "Sorry babe, it's not working out between us" And pull out a sword because there was no divorce.
But in the real western world where you have free choice and abundant opportunity to meet women telling someone you barely know you want a relationship with them from the get go basically communicates that you don't care who they are, she might as well be a goat that's nice to you.
There is nothing wrong with saying that you are after a serious relationship in general, that you fooled around banging models enough. But to say you're sure it's with the person you barely know is pretty strange if you think about it. Unless she's like the one last female in the world.
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I think you're misreading things Lem0n, nobody is saying or has said you should say "I want a relationship with you", just that you can (and in some people's opinion, should) be upfront about the fact that you're dating with the intent of getting into a relationship rather than anything casual.
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Yeah sure, that's communicating your values, and that's a really good thing, I did misunderstand indeed!
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I have been reading this thread from time to time, not posting often, but it seems good advices can come out of it so this time, I'll write something a bit longer and more personal...
This is not a story I have shared with many people so please, don't laugh at me too hard 
When I was a kid, I was your typical nerd, glasses, good grades, a bunch of friends, super shy and not talking to other girls at all and that pretty much continued until college... Nothing too unusual up until now, right?
It got better with college, started maturing a lot, not being an ass anymore and realized I had some sort of a sense of humor even if I stayed the more shy type of guy. Also, beer is always a good way to socialize :D Thing is, I did not went to some huge campus like there is in the U.S. In France, we have what we call engineering schools and mine was small. I graduated in computer science with a bunch of other nerds and very few girls. Also, I was probably playing a bit too much WoW at that time
Then I started to work. And I love my job. I by no means spend my time at the office (duh, how could I achieve the extraordinary feat of reaching 3k mmr in dota2 otherwise :p) but it's still taking me a fairy large amount of time. So I figured online dating would be a good idea... Took me a long while to understand how to make it work... I believe I stayed a year or so with a shitty written profile and no decent photo to speak off wondering why I had zero matches... It's fixed now. Met a few cool ladies and it almost worked for 4 or 5 of them (a bit more on that later...) but not quite to the extent I would have hoped to...
I guess you can see where this is leading to... Here I am, turned 28 a couple months ago and I have never had a real relationship with a woman in my life...
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with my life. I have a very cool job, good salary, the best friends you could ever ask for (although they're all getting married and having kids, seriously, who does that?  ) and I'm no longer the nerd kid I used to be. Obviously I'm no model but I take care of myself, exercise regularly, dress well and am all around happy with how I look, getting older has generally been kind to me I'm just missing that one little thing…
Now, you may ask, what's your issue then? Just keep doing what you've been doing and you'll be fine eventually!
I kinda agree... But I'm not 100% sure...
Also, I said earlier that it almost worked a few times... For the last 3 I thought something serious could begin, It went to the point where, after a few dates, we end up making out like crazy on her couch then go to her bedroom then I'm like "hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing"... Then the rest of the evening is more or less awkward and I never hear from her again... So obviously I'm messing up... So, your opinion? What's the best time to talk about it? Also, keep in mind my range of matches is 25 – 30 yo.
Hmmm, and that's about it, this post has gone long enough... Not sure what I really expect but hey, thanks for reading at least
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On November 26 2015 04:47 Merany wrote:
Also, I said earlier that it almost worked a few times... For the last 3 I thought something serious could begin, It went to the point where, after a few dates, we end up making out like crazy on her couch then go to her bedroom then I'm like "hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing"... Then the rest of the evening is more or less awkward and I never hear from her again... So obviously I'm messing up... So, your opinion? What's the best time to talk about it? Also, keep in mind my range of matches is 25 – 30 yo.
Do you mean you are terrible in bed and they ditched you because of that? If that is the case I feel like some of those girls were not looking for something long term.
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On November 26 2015 04:54 bloodwhore~ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 04:47 Merany wrote:
Also, I said earlier that it almost worked a few times... For the last 3 I thought something serious could begin, It went to the point where, after a few dates, we end up making out like crazy on her couch then go to her bedroom then I'm like "hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing"... Then the rest of the evening is more or less awkward and I never hear from her again... So obviously I'm messing up... So, your opinion? What's the best time to talk about it? Also, keep in mind my range of matches is 25 – 30 yo. Do you mean you are terrible in bed and they ditched you because of that? If that is the case I feel like some of those girls were not looking for something long term.
That is not what I assumed but let me rephrase that...
It was not "terrible". If you've read the rest of my post, it should be obvious that for a first time, with a woman you're not especially comfortable with yet (cause you know, you barely know each other), it's not going to be great. By more or less awkward, I meant that, 2 were just happy with me kissing them a lot and doing a fine job going down on her and the other a lot less, I just could not understand what would please her.
Back to my original question... I assumed the issue was "it's way too late to talk about it, if you can't even be upfront about it before we're naked in my room, I don't know I can trust you" but then again, I could be very wrong 
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On November 26 2015 05:12 Merany wrote:That is not what I assumed but let me rephrase that... It was not "terrible". If you've read the rest of my post, it should be obvious that for a first time, with a woman you're not especially comfortable with yet (cause you know, you barely know each other), it's not going to be great. By more or less awkward, I meant that, 2 were just happy with me kissing them a lot and doing a fine job going down on her and the other a lot less, I just could not understand what would please her. Back to my original question... I assumed the issue was "it's way too late to talk about it, if you can't even be upfront about it before we're naked in my room, I don't know I can trust you" but then again, I could be very wrong
Yeah I'm not sure I still quite fully understand what you mean. To me everything you say points towards that the sex was not up to par and for some reason shit got awkward and they never talk to you again, yet you say "that is not what I assumed.". What exactly did you assume then?
Did you actually say "hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing" before you had sex? Seems like an unnecessary thing to say and doesn't really excude confidence, regardless if it was before or after.
Other than that, if shit got awkward afterwards, I would just try to joke about it a bit and make it sound like it wasn't a big deal. If it was not great sex I would go "we really have to practice this more ". I am literally the lord of failures among sex in this thread. Didn't manage to get it up twice with one girl and blew my load in my boxers 1 minute in to the foreplay. Yet they still wanted to see me again, so maybe it is because you guys are really awkward after? I don't know, someone else probably has a better answer.
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On November 25 2015 05:06 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:Show nested quote +
i would only say anything if she said anything like ' i am def looking for a relationship' to you already. but then again, i generally find anyone that is dead set on having a bf/gf to be odd. i dont get how you can say that after the first few dates when you barely know a stranger. that feels more like any port in a storm kind of deal.
taking it slow is ambiguous enough that i wouldn't take it as that. taking it slow can just mean i am not committing for a whole aka i want to fuck around.
There is nothing wrong about being upfront about wanting a relationship from the get-go. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was the most common way people get into relationship worldwide, not exactly arranged marriage, even though it includes it, but also just common agreement. And those marriages have a lower rate of divorce, partly because it's also in countries where divorce is not taboo-less yet, but also because it's easier to honour a contract/agreement than keeping your "feelings" (whatever you think that is lol). Obviously relationship can fail but there is a difference between "hey i will date you for 6 months and then bye bye !" and "i will see you for as long as it works" This mentality of "hey let's go with the flow, no promises" and avoiding to talk about anything remotely serious is so "trendy" nowadays I just don't get it. It's in the same vein as micro-aggression bullshit going on in the US where people need to be extra careful about anything they say so that they don't somehow offend someone.
Don't hate the player, hate the game 
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On November 26 2015 04:47 Merany wrote:
"hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing"... Then the rest of the evening is more or less awkward and I never hear from her again... So obviously I'm messing up...
Your confidence seems really low
"They were happy with me kissing them a lot"
"Doing a fine job going down on her"
Trying to please her
Even saying explicitly verbalizing "hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing"
Women are used to bad sex. They are even conditioned to have bad sex by society (results orientation on performance and orgasms especially is especially prevalent. ). So it's the way you come across more than what you do first and foremost I'd say, your mentality is a huge turn-off. Just like you say you are comfortable with your identity at work etc. you should work on being comfortable with your identity in other areas, and overall. And if you natural confidence levels are low then just get more practice and increase your competence in this particular area. I.E. if being good with women is important to you, start dating and having sex with lots and lots of women, put in the effort, read some books, listen to podcastsm get practice, get competent. Because you don't seem to be confident from within. And I doubt you have a shot at a proper healthy relationship before you are.
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@LemOn and bloodwhore~
Ok, ok, I see where you guys are coming from. Apologize for not being explicit enough. I guess English not being my mother tongue is not helping me there
hey, btw, I have no freaking clue what I'm doing
That is obviously not what I said More, my feeling about it. I do have confidence in myself but you know, when you have no experience, confidence has its limits too.
All 3 times were a lot more "natural". Can't quite remember the exact words but along the lines of "I probably should let you know, haven't got much experience, you'll probably need to help me a bit... If you wanna talk about it, I'm fine with it, etc, etc".
In fact, I really thought the issue was the timing of it, the "you should really have mentioned that before". And again, none said it, just had that feeling.
And about your advice. I'm dating as much as I can, the sex part is a bit more complicated to set up
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On November 26 2015 21:36 Merany wrote:@LemOn and bloodwhore~ Ok, ok, I see where you guys are coming from. Apologize for not being explicit enough. I guess English not being my mother tongue is not helping me there That is obviously not what I said More, my feeling about it. I do have confidence in myself but you know, when you have no experience, confidence has its limits too. All 3 times were a lot more "natural". Can't quite remember the exact words but along the lines of "I probably should let you know, haven't got much experience, you'll probably need to help me a bit... If you wanna talk about it, I'm fine with it, etc, etc". In fact, I really thought the issue was the timing of it, the "you should really have mentioned that before". And again, none said it, just had that feeling. And about your advice. I'm dating as much as I can, the sex part is a bit more complicated to set up
The "you should really have mentioned that before" is such bullshit to me. Kinda sound like they wouldn't have wanted to have sex knowing that you were inexperienced. You have no obligation to tell them before or after in my opinion. However if they get butthurt over stuff like that you can probably find someone better for you anyway.
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On November 26 2015 21:36 Merany wrote:
Can't quite remember the exact words but along the lines of "I probably should let you know, haven't got much experience, you'll probably need to help me a bit... If you wanna talk about it, I'm fine with it, etc, etc".
That sounds even worse, something an injured puppy would say, not a lover - this will be a giant turn off for most women! And not just when you say it, when you come across that way with your body language etc.
Before sex you're way better off just whispering things in her ear like "You're driving me so crazy, can't wait to fuck you later tonight" i.e. when you're on a dinner date, and then after several hours of foreplay when you're down to being inside her or you're on the clit just give her A or B options like, do you want it fast like this (go fast) or slow like this(go slow) right now?
Basically this is A, This is B, which feels better to you. Test stuff out, have fun with it, talk dirty see what she likes.
The best time to ask by far what she likes really openly is right after sex when you're both lying there tired, then you can be really open. You just got laid so you don't care about lowering her attraction. She should be the most open too and drop her inhibitions. You can talk about what you just did and what you and her would prefer next time. It's really important to express what you like - both from your own satisfaction standpoint, and you just come across as a lot more confident + allow her to be more comfortable about opening up.
On November 26 2015 21:36 Merany wrote:And about your advice. I'm dating as much as I can, the sex part is a bit more complicated to set up
Like how many dates on average does it take you to have sex with a girl? Or get to at least hand in pants territory.
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On November 26 2015 23:54 LemOn wrote:
Like how many dates on average does it take you to have sex with a girl? Or get to at least hand in pants territory.
I have to say, I feel like that if you are in 'hands in pants territory' you should be like 2 seconds away from fucking her.
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Well that happens outside quite a often so not really.
And a lot of girls actually are open to hands stuff but not go further at first, you'd be surprised, especially the younger ones!
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On November 26 2015 23:54 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 21:36 Merany wrote:
Can't quite remember the exact words but along the lines of "I probably should let you know, haven't got much experience, you'll probably need to help me a bit... If you wanna talk about it, I'm fine with it, etc, etc".
That sounds even worse, something an injured puppy would say, not a lover - this will be a giant turn off for most women! And not just when you say it, when you come across that way with your body language etc.
Yeah, figured too that it was a bad idea. That's what I tried to express in my very first post and I agree with you.
Saying it like that, at that time is a mistake.
On the other hand, I feel like this is something I should mention. Maybe some girl don't really care but I know for sure some do. Also, for me, this is just basic honesty. So, maybe casually mention it around date 2 - 3? Like if she bring up her ex or something, just mention that I have none or something like that?
On November 26 2015 23:54 LemOn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 21:36 Merany wrote:And about your advice. I'm dating as much as I can, the sex part is a bit more complicated to set up Like how many dates on average does it take you to have sex with a girl? Or get to at least hand in pants territory.
I'd say 4 dates on average is pretty accurate.
On a different note:
Went on a date yesterday evening with absolutely zero expectations.
Her photo on the dating site was very blurry, her messages were very mixed: one liner answers, just responding to my questions and not being curious at all, SMS style all around (I barely find that acceptable on a teenager, for a woman that is 30 years old, that's a pretty big turn off). She seemed to enjoy my jokes so I asked if she was up for a drink figuring that, at least, I'd get to drink a beer in my favorite bar downtown.
Turned out the date was absolutely amazing. For one, she was hooooooooot. Very smart girl also, extremely interesting. And the sportive type, biker, horse rider, boxing teacher. We stayed almost 4 hours in the bar, chatting and laughing non stop. And finally, first time ever I receive a "hey, thx for the evening, would love to see you again" message, instead of sending it.
I'll try to not fuck up this time! And keeping dating in the meantime, obviously
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On November 25 2015 18:56 LemOn wrote:
I mean sure, the times of princesses were really romantic - Marrying a 9y old Virgin you've never met you've been given. The breakup talks must have been real fun too fun too "Sorry babe, it's not working out between us" And pull out a sword because there was no divorce.
You're describing 21st century Saudi Arabia.
24h hours until my "double date", excited and frightened at the same time.
The first girl frightens me a bit but seems like a proper badass, the second one is super easy to get along with and is exceedingly nice.
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On November 26 2015 23:54 LemOn wrote:
Like how many dates on average does it take you to have sex with a girl? Or get to at least hand in pants territory.
One, or it's probably not going to happen.
There's two lessons I've learned in 100+ dates:
1. No physical contact during the first date probably means no second date.
2. The less you like them, the more they are attracted to you (and, alas, vice versa).
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Got a message from Annika:
"Sorry for being cold thursday. Blabal you're a really nice guy but I have been thinking and I think I see you more as a friend. Feels bad telling you this over facebook but I felt I had to say something."
My response?
"SCORE! I didn't have to be the one rejecting . No worries, I felt the same thing."
You are wise beyond words Lem0n, however I did see it coming as well.
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I don't think that was the best response, but it seems in line with the rest of your personality so I suppose it's pretty good.
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On November 28 2015 17:37 WarSame wrote:
I don't think that was the best response, but it seems in line with the rest of your personality so I suppose it's pretty good.
Depends on how you look at it in my opinion. The "SCORE!" made it seem like I honestly did not give a fuck, which I don't. It should take away some of the bad feels she had about rejecting me as well.
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EPT
