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Vul
United States685 Posts
I'm so tired of feminist writers ignoring context and information when it doesn't fit into their arguments and paradigms. Academically, they still ignore evolutionary science in explaining cultural patterns. Online, they are masterful when it comes to taking something out of context to prove a point, or ignoring the obvious entirely. I am generalizing, but I have seen this over and over again. IMO a lack of integrity it is a definite trend in that field. Why that is, I don't know. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On September 21 2011 22:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a lot of this is guys not fully through puberty still developing their full compliment of social skills. amongst the "gang" i hung out with when i was 15 every time any guy did anything wrong he was a "fag". if a situation arose that we didn't like it was labelled "gay". When aggression was performed on any object it was being "raped". now at the ripe old age of 24 and having completed a pretty tough post secondary education and now professionally employed i never speak in this manner. it is funny watching guys like DJ Wheat stuck in a protracted adolescence still continue to talk like this though. its like watching Ric Flair continue to be a pro wrestler at 55 years old. Most guys follow my path though. Basically most of the guys who have these word issues need to spend 50% of the social time with females in order to better balance their personalities. Also, if this were a problem that impacted "gamers" to their core then Red Alert 3 would've been an all time best seller and Starcraft2 would've fallen flat. The common marketing slogan "sex sells" did not apply in this case. The Blizzard theme of "game play first" sure did. The use of profanity doesn't necessarily reflect maturity of thought. It's merely a component of expression which is rendered more popular by the brief, impersonal nature of online media. In public forums it's important to communicate clearly and appropriately, but realistically, the case is quite different in the casual atmosphere of gaming. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On September 22 2011 04:52 Vul wrote: Day9 has said bitch before, but who cares. I think these feminist authors need to show actual harms that come from tossing the word "bitch" around, especially when it's used in jest. Context is so important here. There is a big difference between calling someone a bitch jokingly and saying it with meaning. 93% of communication is non-verbal! I'm so tired of feminist writers ignoring context and information when it doesn't fit into their arguments and paradigms. Academically, they still ignore evolutionary science in explaining cultural patterns. Online, they are masterful when it comes to taking something out of context to prove a point, or ignoring the obvious entirely. I am generalizing, but I have seen this over and over again. IMO a lack of integrity it is a definite trend in that field. Why that is, I don't know. I agree, to a point. However I don't think they do it purely out of a desperate and unwavering need to get their way, notwithstanding many come off that way. They essentially fail to communicate the view that gender-biased language, behaviors and institutions are still arguably wrong regardless of the plausible explanations for their historical and ongoing ubiquity. That is to say, biological, deeply subtle causes for current gender behavior (that they construe as prejudice) may exist but it is hard to articulate why or why not that has any bearing on "fairness" or "right and wrong" either ethically or pragmatically. On September 22 2011 04:36 Loodah wrote: You were flaming someone for basically saying you have to take it slowly and the culture will change. That's how civil rights have progressed throughout history - very rarely do things happen quickly without a slow, deliberate process in the history of civil rights. No, I was imploring a self-described thoughtful person to reconsider their standpoint about speaking out about sexism in online gamer culture. [edit] typo | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On September 21 2011 19:58 jacen wrote: Oh wow. Just in case you didn't notice: IT WAS JUST A DATE. It's actually that simple. Why would you write about it (well i guess she does it for money), why would you comment on her writing, why would you write a commentary article about the comments? This is a giant circlejerk of stereotyping. I am actually appaled that the thread has 40+ pages and everyone keeps arguing about such puny issues. There will always be people who are not compatible ... get over it. If you want something to rage against, or shame yourself, please join the discussion on rational thinking in the western world and it's enemies. That would actually be a worthy cause to invest your energy in. People invest their time in discussing whatever interests them. Considering that teamliquid is a place where we discuss (and rage about) Starcraft, it's somewhat ridiculous to assert that the state of online gender interaction is somehow "beneath" discussing. | ||
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jmbnm
24 Posts
Fact is you weren't intelligent - and by the looks of your poor writing, still aren't - despite some borderline-irrelevant IQ test you took in kindergarten. No one cares you got an A in English class, English in high school was and is easy as fuck. From attempting to seem intelligent by constructing nonsensical phrases like "synaptic pep" to downright using the wrong words like "special education teacher" (though perhaps in your case, you really were in special ed?), you really come off as just plain pathetic. Nothing was squandered in your case, Geordie, because there was nothing to squander. User was warned for this post | ||
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Estel
33 Posts
I'll weigh my own experience in to this rather... heated... thread. I was watching the Monobattle daily livestream with my mother. My mom really likes Sean; she thinks what he does is cool, doing what he loves and making it work and such, and she thinks Funday Monday is really funny, so she watches it sometimes, when I am. When Sean called his ex a bitch, I immediately recoiled from it as a gendered insult. I recoiled from it because, well, I was watching it with my mother, who I thought might interpret it beyond Sean's harmless (maybe not kind, but harmless) intent. If I can pick up on it as a gendered insult, I have no doubt that she could, even if she didn't show it. It's like making racist jokes. I can suffer to be around those who make racist comments offhandedly -- I won't "get all butthurt", as the saying goes. That doesn't mean the comment, or word, is any less demeaning or degrading. I choose to ignore it to avoid becoming a social pariah. Hope that's useful to someone. -- Edited for clarity | ||
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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Estel
33 Posts
That'd be like saying "Why do fags hate being called fags, fag just means cigarette". -EDIT- Actually, I didn't read your post carefully. Are you making a joke? I'm not sure a dog would be insulted. Dogs love being called names, they can't tell what's going on aside from that they're receiving attention... | ||
semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On September 22 2011 04:52 Vul wrote: I'm so tired of feminist writers ignoring context and information when it doesn't fit into their arguments and paradigms. Academically, they still ignore evolutionary science in explaining cultural patterns. Online, they are masterful when it comes to taking something out of context to prove a point, or ignoring the obvious entirely. I'm pretty sure that's everybody, not just feminists. People have a difficult time in seeing or admitting that they are wrong or in understanding why an argument that they make is illogical. For all of the people here criticizing the article/author for misquoting or taking Sean's quote out of context, which is in fact true; most of you are taking that portion of the article out of context yourselves from the rest of the article and the issues it addresses in your own criticism of the article. From your own points of view, does that make your points invalid as well? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On September 22 2011 07:55 Estel wrote: Yikes. Day[9] wasn't misquoted, there is no lack of integrity regarding the quote. The author says a lot of nice things about Day[9]. I'll weigh my own experience in to this rather... heated... thread. I was watching the Monobattle daily livestream with my mother. My mom really likes Sean; she thinks what he does is cool, doing what he loves and making it work and such, and she thinks Funday Monday is really funny, so she watches it sometimes, when I am. When Sean called his ex a bitch, I immediately recoiled from it as a gendered insult. I recoiled from it because, well, I was watching it with my mother, who I thought might interpret it beyond Sean's harmless (maybe not kind, but harmless) intent. If I can pick up on it as a gendered insult, I have no doubt that she could, even if she didn't show it. It's like making racist jokes. I can suffer to be around those who make racist comments offhandedly -- I won't "get all butthurt", as the saying goes. That doesn't mean the comment, or word, is any less demeaning or degrading. I choose to ignore it to avoid becoming a social pariah. Hope that's useful to someone. -- Edited for clarity Day9 was horribly misquoted. What Day9 says is "Seriously, 'gg', it's a sign of resignation and respect... you young bitch." And the misquote is actually important because anyone looking at that can see that it is hypocritical humor. He's being disrespectful after the word "respect." That's the whole point of the joke. If he had quoted him accurately, it wouldn't look bad for Sean at all. | ||
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effervescent
United States47 Posts
I found the article poorly written and exhausting to read. It was just too much to absorb and he was pretty hypocritical and verbose. He had a ridiculous, "you either agree with me and feel guilty for your actions or you're a sexist, misogynistic jerk." Really? Those are the only two options? It seemed like he was accusing every single gamer of being just like him when he was growing up (poor luck with the ladies, played lots of video games, etc.), when in reality, he was just making wide, generalizations about male gamers. The solution is quite simple. Men need to be more tolerable of female gamers and give them a chance to prove themself or just leave them alone to enjoy the game, and women need to a) grow a freaking spine b) stop making a big deal about their gender and c) learn to put up with the shit they were surely receive from the interwebs. Not everyone is going to act mature on the internet, and that will probably always be true. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
On September 22 2011 08:39 semioldguy wrote: I'm pretty sure that's everybody, not just feminists. People have a difficult time in seeing or admitting that they are wrong or in understanding why an argument that they make is illogical. For all of the people here criticizing the article/author for misquoting or taking Sean's quote out of context, which is in fact true; most of you are taking that portion of the article out of context yourselves from the rest of the article and the issues it addresses in your own criticism of the article. From your own points of view, does that make your points invalid as well? That is a good point. His misquote (and I say Misquote not to suggest day 9 didn't say those words but just that he provided 0 context which is essentially tabloid journalism and is laughable by journalistic standards) of day 9 was more important than you imply, however. He used it as a basis to include Starcraft 2 in the argument. He went from the Magic Community, one he knows quite well (despite the fact that even within that community it's impossible to make the assumptions he made without completely making his argument irrelevant) - and transitioned into generalizations about male gamers in general. This pattern continues - in fact the Anderson article was completely out of context, too. He clearly misleads the readers (at least those who don't actually read the link) - in fact Anderson replies in the comments basically saying that the article was good, but that he completely misconstrues the article. Overall, the out of context quote was one problem among MANY in the article. From the standpoint of debate, his argument is weak. He doesn't support it with facts at all - just quotes from blog comments / twitter. He could have used psychology to help support his points - some of which are worthy of discussion - but instead he chose to generalize the gaming community by quoting immature comments on blog posts. He also makes some direct insults which doesn't really help his argument at all. The biggest issue here is that there is a huge inconsistency between what he claims to want to achieve - and the way he goes about trying to do it. If he really wanted to help male gamers become more tolerant of women in the scene - or improve the treatment of women in the scene - he would allow for some interaction and discussion. Instead he pigeonholes people who disagree with him before they even finish reading the article. There is no room for discussion at all. His attitude implies that if you don't agree, you are a sexist. There is no room for this kind of tone, direct insults, false assumptions, or generalizations in an intelligent discussion. | ||
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ChiffonAngel
43 Posts
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
In fact, I find that approach to sexist in some way discriminating against men too. It objectifies women but it also perpetuates the stereotype that men are after one thing really, only. Same as above refers to "booth babes" at game cons. I was a gaming journalist while at university and I often clashed with that. I'm pleased to find that this kind of thing is minimal in SC2, close to absent. Feels so much more mature this way, too. Kudos to Blizzard. IMHO nothing wrong with failing to pretend that you aren't surprised by a female being interested or successful in a male-dominated field or the other way round. Just express it with kindness. Reciprocally, be similarly kind to people who were just normal people and failed to be ubersensitive to your sensitivities. | ||
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itstheTB
61 Posts
Women are like women are, and they are not going to change. Learn their ways and learn to talk to them in a smooth and loving voice, or dude might be better off marrying his computer. Not directed toward day9 thou, I don't believe one second that Sean Plott is rude toward women or toward anyone for that matter, <3 day9 great caster smart guy! | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:25 NewbieOne wrote: What I see as sexism is gaming shows especially in RPGs. Female armours are so ridiculously skimpy that it's hard to assign any real protective value to them and other kinds of garments are also typically made to be sexually enticing rather than anything else. I particularly dislike that kind of thing, no matter that sometimes it may actually be pretty on some aesthetical level. Most of the time it's just gratuitous innuendo in visual form. I love seeing character models that feature normal, real clothes. In fact, I find that approach to sexist in some way discriminating against men too. It objectifies women but it also perpetuates the stereotype that men are after one thing really, only. Same as above refers to "booth babes" at game cons. I was a gaming journalist while at university and I often clashed with that. I'm pleased to find that this kind of thing is minimal in SC2, close to absent. Feels so much more mature this way, too. Kudos to Blizzard. IMHO nothing wrong with failing to pretend that you aren't surprised by a female being interested or successful in a male-dominated field or the other way round. Just express it with kindness. Reciprocally, be similarly kind to people who were just normal people and failed to be ubersensitive to your sensitivities. Sex sells :/ Using attractive women to appeal to men has existed since... oh forever. | ||
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itstheTB
61 Posts
On September 24 2011 00:01 buhhy wrote: Sex sells :/ Using attractive women to appeal to men has existed since... oh forever. Since, about 15-20 years ago when USA started with the sexual revolution turning music videos into softcore porn, then the marketing generally took the same approach of commercializing sex. Before that, women were dressed up. Ask your mother how things where when she was young. Learn your history, before posting and making a fool out of yourself. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On September 26 2011 02:55 itstheTB wrote: Since, about 15-20 years ago when USA started with the sexual revolution turning music videos into softcore porn, then the marketing generally took the same approach of commercializing sex. Before that, women were dressed up. Ask your mother how things where when she was young. Learn your history, before posting and making a fool out of yourself. And every family in the 50's lived like in Leave it to Beaver, right? Rofl edit: That last sentence is particularly ironic. | ||
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cvlsfts
Canada17 Posts
On September 26 2011 02:55 itstheTB wrote: Since, about 15-20 years ago when USA started with the sexual revolution turning music videos into softcore porn, then the marketing generally took the same approach of commercializing sex. Before that, women were dressed up. Ask your mother how things where when she was young. Learn your history, before posting and making a fool out of yourself. Hey guess what? Sex sells, and it sold. http://idsgn.org/images/now-and-then-sex-still-sells/1960s.jpg (<mildly NSFW?) It's perfectly normal analyzing it from a psychoanalytic point of view, where we are all driven by our not-so-socially-acceptable desires of the id. Which straight man isn't attracted to beautiful young women? Companies who aren't afraid to utilize that seem to be getting the upper edge, if you look at ads from big names like Dolce&Gabbana and Guess. Point is, the public, as individuals, like it, albeit how sexist or derogatory it is to the female population. And sex will keep on selling as long as testosterone flows through the veins of men. About Day9's quote, I don't think it was meant to insult anyone at all. We all know that he's a perfectly respectful guy. : ) No need to overreact. | ||
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