|
|
On September 19 2011 06:15 Falling wrote:
Ok, so I think we might have some common ground here? There is a little room for adjustment for gamer lingo? That is the current state, is not necessarily the best state? But as to fairness, how about turning it around a little bit. Is it fair for girls coming into the gamer scene that is rife with words that although not intentionally so are directed against them and very demeaning? (At least according to the primary discourses' shared meaning.)
It's not fair, but there's no appropriate way to regulate it.
People also use 'fag' as an epithet online, and I strongly frown upon that as someone with a disproportionate number of LBGT friends, but it would be insane to try and stop that in order to protect people's feelings. What next, are we going to prohibit discussions of God because religous types might be offended? Ban pictures of Mohammed?
The real problem is that feminists feel entitled to infringe on the rights of others to ensure that women's "right" not to be offended is protected. Sorry, but you're in the same boat as the rest of us who deal with the shit-tons of sexist, racist, homophobic, and otherwise offensive speech. Welcome to the internet, learn to deal with it.
|
I think that women need to just deal with gamer culture.
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin. Is it fair for black people moving to china to totally destroy the hundreds of years of cultural build up because they are offended by a word that realistically there is no intent to be offensive with in the first place? Of course not.
Similarly, it isn't fair for girls to come in and tell gamers to stop being "offensive."
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Sigh...
If even TL gets this hostile to the idea of respecting women I give up. I just give up. It shouldn't be so hard to try being more respectful to others.
You guys win. It's women's fault. You're doing nothing wrong at all. Whatever.
|
On September 19 2011 12:22 iCanada wrote:
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin.
Is this a troll or did one of your Chinese friends play a joke on you? Na ge doesn't sound like nigga at all unless you have terrible pronunciation.
|
On September 19 2011 12:33 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
If even TL gets this hostile to the idea of respecting women I give up. I just give up. It shouldn't be so hard to try being more respectful to others.
You guys win. It's women's fault. You're doing nothing wrong at all. Whatever.
I do respect women all the time, hell, I don't even use terms like rape.
That being said, I don't think it is reasonable to go somewhere and expect to change all the culture to fit your likings. Sure there might have to be some give and take, and it would be one thing if every gamer on the internet literally wanted to go and have sex without consent with every single girl on the internets... this however is not the case.
On September 19 2011 12:42 Bubble-T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 12:22 iCanada wrote:
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin. Is this a troll or did one of your Chinese friends play a joke on you? Na ge doesn't sound like nigga at all unless you have terrible pronunciation.
This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact that people have been offended by chinese people saying na ge. It is an extreme example, but still relevent, imo.
|
On September 19 2011 12:33 lorkac wrote:
Sigh...
If even TL gets this hostile to the idea of respecting women I give up. I just give up. It shouldn't be so hard to try being more respectful to others.
You guys win. It's women's fault. You're doing nothing wrong at all. Whatever.
And your not making it any better, maybe you should come up with an argument good enough to not to be easily refuted. Resorting to guilt shows that you cannot bring any other argument to the table; and any sensible man wont fall for that weak Ethos tactic.
|
On September 19 2011 03:46 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:42 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:35 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:33 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:28 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:23 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:08 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
In theory rape is a sexless term because it can happen to any gender by and gender. However the vast majority of rapes happen where it is men raping women. This mean women tend to find it as more of a sexual threat whereas men tend to see at just another insult. Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit. The nations thing was just to try and explain my point. More simply if Group A does something bad to Group B. Then Person A saying something related to that bad thing is going to offend Person B more than another member of Group A or someone in neither group. Also murder is much more of a gender neutral crime than rape. Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male Male offender/Male victim 65.2% Male offender/Female victim 22.6% Female offender/Male victim 9.7% Female offender/Female victim 2.4% The gender distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide For the years 1976-2004 combined - * Among all homicide victims, females are particularly at risk for intimate killings and sex-related homicides. Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004 Victims Offenders Male Female Male Female All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3% Victim/offender relationship Intimate 36.5% 63.5% 65.3% 34.7% Family 51.7% 48.3% 70.6% 29.4% Infanticide 54.5% 45.5% 61.8% 38.2% Eldercide 58.3% 41.7% 85.3% 14.7% Circumstances Felony murder 78.2% 21.8% 93.3% 6.7% Sex related 18.8% 81.2% 93.6% 6.4% Drug related 90.1% 9.9% 95.6% 4.4% Gang related 94.6% 5.4% 98.3% 1.7% Argument 77.9% 22.1% 85.5% 14.5% Workplace 78.3% 21.7% 91.1% 8.9% Weapon Gun homicide 82.7% 17.3% 91.2% 8.8% Arson 56.3% 43.7% 79.1% 20.9% Poison 55.6% 44.4% 63.3% 36.7% Multiple victims or offenders Multiple victims 63.1% 36.9% 93.5% 6.5% Multiple offenders 85.6% 14.4% 91.7% 8.3% Also, I know exactly what you were doing, you were talking about genders in one line and in the next you moved it to nations. You can't swap it around like that. An I'm sure the numbers for rape are much more gendered. Also as has been said before males don't murder other males because they are males whereas males rape females because they are female. I didn't try to swap it round, I was trying to use a neutral, to this discussion, subject to explain my point better I could have used anything it's just warring nations was the first thing that popped into my head. There isn't anything specific about nations that makes my point stronger or weaker. 66% isn't enough for you. Can you tell me, oh lord and master of the universe at what percentage should murder begin to effect me as a male. At first I thought you were reasonable, but now you come off just as bad as that other person. Also, males don't murder other males because they are males? REALLY? The numbers aren't the most important thing, the intent is. Yes I doubt that happens much. Say for example gun homicide which is 83% male/male. these killing aren't because they are male, it's probably down to gang violence being mainly perpetrated by males. If you look at say murders where it is an intimate relation ship the numbers are much more skewed towards male/female in both directions, this is because there a lot more heterosexual couples. All these murder rates are very circumstantial to the condition they are being perpetrated in. America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The 50 states, the District of Columbia and the federal government held 1,355,748 prisoners (two-thirds of the total incarcerated population), and local municipal and county jails held 665,475 inmates. By midyear 2002, America's jails held 1 in every 142 U.S. residents. Males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,309 inmates per 100,000 U.S. men, while the female incarceration rate was 113 per 100,000 women residents. Source: SourceSeveral studies argue that male-male prisoner rape, as well as female-female prisoner rape, might be the most common and least-reported forms of rape, with some studies suggesting such rapes are substantially more common in both per-capita and raw-number totals than male-female rapes in the general population.[2][15][16] Research from the UK suggests that almost 3% of men reported a non-consensual sexual experience as adults and over 5% of men reported sexual abuse as a child.[17] This does not take into account the possibility of exaggeration or false reports nor of underreporting. Recognition of male on male rape in law has historically been limited; the first successful prosecution for attempted male on male rape in the UK was not until 1995. Male on male rape has historically been shrouded in secrecy due to the stigma men associate with being raped by other men. According to psychologist Dr Sarah Crome fewer than one in ten male-male rapes are reported. As a group, male rape victims reported a lack of services and support, and legal systems are often ill equipped to deal with this type of crime.[18] The rape of men by men has been documented as a weapon of terror in warfare.[19] Statutory female-on-male rape Several widely publicized cases of female-on-male statutory rape in the United States involved school teachers raping their underage students. (See e.g. Mary Kay Letourneau or Debra Lafave) In the case of statutory rape, the victim can be legally bound to pay child support to his rapist.[20] [edit] Non-statutory female-on-male rape Much like female erectile response and contrary to popular opinion, male erectile response is involuntary,[21][22] meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect and be placed in a woman's vagina. Penetration of a man by a woman is possible through use of a strap-on or other object. Rape of a man by a woman could also occur when limited sexual activities are agreed upon and a man's penis is placed in a woman in violation of the limits that had been set. Rape of a man by a woman is thus possible in several ways. However, male victims of sexual abuse by females[23] often face social, political, and legal double standards.[24] While gender-neutral laws have combated the older perception that rape never occurs to men,[25] and other laws have eliminated the term altogether,[26] the double standards still remain. Due to these reasons, it is likely being substantially under-reported, with the probable cause being the double standard, or possibly shame.[27] So, we learned that the most common form of rape is prison rape and it's generally unreported and that a majority of prisoners are male. Therefore we can deduce that a majority of rape is male on male rape and on the rare chance it's female on male rape and the female becomes pregnant the male can be at least in certain cases expected to pay child support. If anything overall rape seems much scarier to me, as a male.Edit: Cleaned it up a bit.
(Underlines and bolding in the quote are mine.) This is a ridiculous use of statistics. You draw no distinction between prison rape, where same sex accommodation is strictly enforced and power differentials are off the scale, then use those vastly inflated numbers to swamp the rest of the cases in society.
Then later on in the thread, you try to use underreporting as the reason why your 'male on male rape is the most common' notion doesn't jive with pretty much every set of statistics ever collected on the general population.
If anything overall rape seems much scarier to me, as a male.
No one is going to take this obviously flawed conclusion seriously. See above for flaws, also note underlined areas.
On September 19 2011 03:49 ChiffonAngel wrote:
It's real simple, people.
Take "sexism" out of it. It doesn't matter. No one is sexist now. Ok? Good.
Do you want more females around? If yes, try to be more mindful of the things you say. If no, keep doing what you're doing.
If you want a community to open up to cultural diversity, not pushing them away with your ugly language is a good place to start. It's offensive. It doesn't matter if *you* think it's offensive. "They" do. And "they" aren't going to want to be around you when you're offending them. "They will go do something else.
That's all there is. Plain. Simple. Real.
This. Advocates of 'men's rights' like HereticSaint (who advocates the dismantling of affirmative action in the corporate world, ignoring the large and growing body of evidence from both transverse and longitudinal studies that find positive effects in organizational function and decreased barriers to further entry by women) don't get it. Increased participation helps everyone and has positive spillover effects. If you want gaming to mainstream into a generally accepted hobby, it's very much in your own interest to contribute to a community where the women don't have to 'just ignore it'.
|
On September 19 2011 12:42 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 12:42 Bubble-T wrote:On September 19 2011 12:22 iCanada wrote:
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin. Is this a troll or did one of your Chinese friends play a joke on you? Na ge doesn't sound like nigga at all unless you have terrible pronunciation. This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact that people have been offended by chinese people saying na ge. It is an extreme example, but still relevent, imo.
I think you're making a slippery slope argument here and you've gone off the cliff at the end of the slope. There is no reasonable logic to the idea that asking people to be aware of how their language impacts on females in the community will lead to something as ridiculous as you're suggesting, and they're not really related except that they involve someone being offended by language.
That's assuming your post was on the topic of the original article or something, sorry if I've misinterpreted.
|
On September 19 2011 13:17 Bubble-T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 12:42 iCanada wrote:On September 19 2011 12:42 Bubble-T wrote:On September 19 2011 12:22 iCanada wrote:
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin. Is this a troll or did one of your Chinese friends play a joke on you? Na ge doesn't sound like nigga at all unless you have terrible pronunciation. This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact that people have been offended by chinese people saying na ge. It is an extreme example, but still relevent, imo. I think you're making a slippery slope argument here and you've gone off the cliff at the end of the slope. There is no reasonable logic to the idea that asking people to be aware of how their language impacts on females in the community will lead to something as ridiculous as your suggesting, and they're not really related except that they involve someone being offended by language. That's assuming your post was on the topic of the original article or something, sorry if I've misinterpreted.
Well, I don't think it is a slippery slope argument at all. I am not saying that if we let x happen, eventually y will. I am saying that people shouldn't be able to change a culture they are not part of because they find something taken out of context offensive.
|
On September 19 2011 12:58 hummingbird23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:46 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:42 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:35 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:33 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:28 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:23 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:18 HereticSaint wrote:On September 19 2011 03:16 imallinson wrote:On September 19 2011 03:10 HereticSaint wrote:
[quote]
Here we go again. Sorry, I don't buy the, "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology and would literally rebel against a government enforcing those ideals if it were trying to rule over me, I'm 100% not even kidding. Killing isn't all of a sudden a term that has more meaning towards males because they kill other people (mostly males) more often. It's not a "I'm a woman, I'm the victim always" ideology at all. It's saying that because most rapes happen to women by men, it has considerably more meaning to women than men. It's a similar situation to say two nations who have been warring and a member of one nation says to another in a competitive game "I'm going to kill you" it will have a much stronger effect on that person than someone from another country, even if that particular person was in no way involved in the war. Wait, so we jumped from sexes to nations? No, I'm sorry you literally contradicted yourself in the same post that is only a few sentences long. It's like saying men should immediately be more offended when another male says they are going to murder them because it's more likely to happen. That's bullshit. The nations thing was just to try and explain my point. More simply if Group A does something bad to Group B. Then Person A saying something related to that bad thing is going to offend Person B more than another member of Group A or someone in neither group. Also murder is much more of a gender neutral crime than rape. Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male Male offender/Male victim 65.2% Male offender/Female victim 22.6% Female offender/Male victim 9.7% Female offender/Female victim 2.4% The gender distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide For the years 1976-2004 combined - * Among all homicide victims, females are particularly at risk for intimate killings and sex-related homicides. Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004 Victims Offenders Male Female Male Female All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3% Victim/offender relationship Intimate 36.5% 63.5% 65.3% 34.7% Family 51.7% 48.3% 70.6% 29.4% Infanticide 54.5% 45.5% 61.8% 38.2% Eldercide 58.3% 41.7% 85.3% 14.7% Circumstances Felony murder 78.2% 21.8% 93.3% 6.7% Sex related 18.8% 81.2% 93.6% 6.4% Drug related 90.1% 9.9% 95.6% 4.4% Gang related 94.6% 5.4% 98.3% 1.7% Argument 77.9% 22.1% 85.5% 14.5% Workplace 78.3% 21.7% 91.1% 8.9% Weapon Gun homicide 82.7% 17.3% 91.2% 8.8% Arson 56.3% 43.7% 79.1% 20.9% Poison 55.6% 44.4% 63.3% 36.7% Multiple victims or offenders Multiple victims 63.1% 36.9% 93.5% 6.5% Multiple offenders 85.6% 14.4% 91.7% 8.3% Also, I know exactly what you were doing, you were talking about genders in one line and in the next you moved it to nations. You can't swap it around like that. An I'm sure the numbers for rape are much more gendered. Also as has been said before males don't murder other males because they are males whereas males rape females because they are female. I didn't try to swap it round, I was trying to use a neutral, to this discussion, subject to explain my point better I could have used anything it's just warring nations was the first thing that popped into my head. There isn't anything specific about nations that makes my point stronger or weaker. 66% isn't enough for you. Can you tell me, oh lord and master of the universe at what percentage should murder begin to effect me as a male. At first I thought you were reasonable, but now you come off just as bad as that other person. Also, males don't murder other males because they are males? REALLY? The numbers aren't the most important thing, the intent is. Yes I doubt that happens much. Say for example gun homicide which is 83% male/male. these killing aren't because they are male, it's probably down to gang violence being mainly perpetrated by males. If you look at say murders where it is an intimate relation ship the numbers are much more skewed towards male/female in both directions, this is because there a lot more heterosexual couples. All these murder rates are very circumstantial to the condition they are being perpetrated in. America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The 50 states, the District of Columbia and the federal government held 1,355,748 prisoners (two-thirds of the total incarcerated population), and local municipal and county jails held 665,475 inmates. By midyear 2002, America's jails held 1 in every 142 U.S. residents. Males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,309 inmates per 100,000 U.S. men, while the female incarceration rate was 113 per 100,000 women residents. Source: SourceSeveral studies argue that male-male prisoner rape, as well as female-female prisoner rape, might be the most common and least-reported forms of rape, with some studies suggesting such rapes are substantially more common in both per-capita and raw-number totals than male-female rapes in the general population.[2][15][16] Research from the UK suggests that almost 3% of men reported a non-consensual sexual experience as adults and over 5% of men reported sexual abuse as a child.[17] This does not take into account the possibility of exaggeration or false reports nor of underreporting. Recognition of male on male rape in law has historically been limited; the first successful prosecution for attempted male on male rape in the UK was not until 1995. Male on male rape has historically been shrouded in secrecy due to the stigma men associate with being raped by other men. According to psychologist Dr Sarah Crome fewer than one in ten male-male rapes are reported. As a group, male rape victims reported a lack of services and support, and legal systems are often ill equipped to deal with this type of crime.[18] The rape of men by men has been documented as a weapon of terror in warfare.[19] Statutory female-on-male rape Several widely publicized cases of female-on-male statutory rape in the United States involved school teachers raping their underage students. (See e.g. Mary Kay Letourneau or Debra Lafave) In the case of statutory rape, the victim can be legally bound to pay child support to his rapist.[20] [edit] Non-statutory female-on-male rape Much like female erectile response and contrary to popular opinion, male erectile response is involuntary,[21][22] meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect and be placed in a woman's vagina. Penetration of a man by a woman is possible through use of a strap-on or other object. Rape of a man by a woman could also occur when limited sexual activities are agreed upon and a man's penis is placed in a woman in violation of the limits that had been set. Rape of a man by a woman is thus possible in several ways. However, male victims of sexual abuse by females[23] often face social, political, and legal double standards.[24] While gender-neutral laws have combated the older perception that rape never occurs to men,[25] and other laws have eliminated the term altogether,[26] the double standards still remain. Due to these reasons, it is likely being substantially under-reported, with the probable cause being the double standard, or possibly shame.[27] So, we learned that the most common form of rape is prison rape and it's generally unreported and that a majority of prisoners are male. Therefore we can deduce that a majority of rape is male on male rape and on the rare chance it's female on male rape and the female becomes pregnant the male can be at least in certain cases expected to pay child support. If anything overall rape seems much scarier to me, as a male.Edit: Cleaned it up a bit. (Underlines and bolding in the quote are mine.) This is a ridiculous use of statistics. You draw no distinction between prison rape, where same sex accommodation is strictly enforced and power differentials are off the scale, then use those vastly inflated numbers to swamp the rest of the cases in society. Then later on in the thread, you try to use underreporting as the reason why your 'male on male rape is the most common' notion doesn't jive with pretty much every set of statistics ever collected on the general population. No one is going to take this obviously flawed conclusion seriously. See above for flaws, also note underlined areas. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:49 ChiffonAngel wrote:
It's real simple, people.
Take "sexism" out of it. It doesn't matter. No one is sexist now. Ok? Good.
Do you want more females around? If yes, try to be more mindful of the things you say. If no, keep doing what you're doing.
If you want a community to open up to cultural diversity, not pushing them away with your ugly language is a good place to start. It's offensive. It doesn't matter if *you* think it's offensive. "They" do. And "they" aren't going to want to be around you when you're offending them. "They will go do something else.
That's all there is. Plain. Simple. Real. This. Advocates of 'men's rights' like HereticSaint (who advocates the dismantling of affirmative action in the corporate world, ignoring the large and growing body of evidence from both transverse and longitudinal studies that find positive effects in organizational function and decreased barriers to further entry by women) don't get it. Increased participation helps everyone and has positive spillover effects. If you want gaming to mainstream into a generally accepted hobby, it's very much in your own interest to contribute to a community where the women don't have to 'just ignore it'.
This is a good point, but I think at some point the regulations on language become so petty and ridiculous. Are people really that sensitive? Why does everyone have to feel so victimized? The real forms of discrimination are institutionalized, and perpetrated by those in power. Broad, sweeping social reform--at the level on online interactions, no less--just seems really trivial in comparison.
I think that most people have a reasonable comprehension of social mores, and that the distinction between malicious language and appropriated vernacular is quite transparent.
|
On September 19 2011 13:21 iCanada wrote:
Well, I don't think it is a slippery slope argument at all. I am not saying that if we let x happen, eventually y will. I am saying that people shouldn't be able to change a culture they are not part of because they find something taken out of context offensive.
Ok, understood. I think gamers should still actually care if women who are not yet 'gamers' but are interested in joining that culture find it offensive though, but that's a personal opinion.
Besides which, it's ok for female gamers to say that this stuff is offensive right?
edit: If this is still about Day[9] using the word 'bitch' I think Geordie's reason for including it as an example in the article was not to say that people should be offended by Day[9]'s story, or to hang him for saying 'bitch' once, but to illustrate how common the use of such words (and bitch is one of the more benign ones) is in gaming circles. The point of his article is not to start a witch hunt but to get people to think about how women who enter gaming feel when they hear things like this all the time. If a female friend of mine said they didn't want to watch the daily because Day[9] said 'bitch' once, I'd try to get them to look past that. That doesn't change that I also think misogynistic words are used much too often and with little to no thought about how this impacts women in gaming or entering gaming.
VVVV Jesus christ look at this post, just look at it.
|
Well majority of gamers are males and we can't deny that discrimination is bound to happen. As a gamer myself, I don't have any problem with genders, sexuality or nationality. Games are suppose to be fun and it should be played in a friendly environment but ofc majority of gamers are TEENS. Some are bound to childish, immature, etc..
As for my experience i seen a lot of problems that made sexism apparent. MALES acting as females which makes a lot of gamers doubtful about female gamers. FEMALES separate themselves from the community. I see a lot of females make their own tourney (females only). In matter of skill, gender doesn't matter I think. It's just the population of female gamers. ALSO i found that female gamers are so emotional or sensitive and take everything the wrong way ie. this article.
|
On September 19 2011 13:42 DarkRise wrote:
Well majority of gamers are males and we can't deny that discrimination is bound to happen. As a gamer myself, I don't have any problem with genders, sexuality or nationality. Games are suppose to be fun and it should be played in a friendly environment but ofc majority of gamers are TEENS. Some are bound to childish, immature, etc..
As for my experience i seen a lot of problems that made sexism apparent. MALES acting as females which makes a lot of gamers doubtful about female gamers. FEMALES separate themselves from the community. I see a lot of females make their own tourney (females only). In matter of skill, gender doesn't matter I think. It's just the population of female gamers. ALSO i found that female gamers are so emotional or sensitive and take everything the wrong way ie. this article.
Yuup.. why should girls expect to get special "girls only clans" and "female tournaments", while expecting guys to stop insulting them as well. It's wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
|
On September 19 2011 12:42 Bubble-T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 12:22 iCanada wrote:
It is a lot like how in Mandarin the phrase 'na ge' (pronounced 'nigga') sounds a lot like a very terrible racial slur, however is just a filler word meaning "that" in mandarin. Is this a troll or did one of your Chinese friends play a joke on you? Na ge doesn't sound like nigga at all unless you have terrible pronunciation.
I'm full Chinese, and I think 那个 sounds close to nigga, especially when said fast. It's said closer to nei ge, instead of ne ge.
|
I have recently discovered there's a whole science behind the "gender/privilege" shebang.
To be honest, I think it's pretty ridiculous.
I'm (probably) sorry if anyone is offended by me saying "cunt", "dick", etc, but that's not gonna stop me from saying it. Insults have their place.
Just try to mostly be nice to people, no need to roll out the sexism hammer 
|
I call people bitches all the time, I don't care. But it's weird, I remember I was playing this random guy. I guess he was trying to be friendly and playful. When my lings harassed him, he wrote: 'you slut' followed by a smiley face. I got so angry by that, even though I know he was not serious, so I killed him ez pz. But anyways, I can attribute to some of my anger by reasoning that I got pissed off in the first place cos this random guy tried to get too friendly with me by calling me names. I do that too- calling people names-, but only with people who I know won't be offended or I'm chill with them. But I guess it's a good alert of what kinda person you're up against because he was QQing sooo hard after the game. Not the sort of person I would wanna hang out with anyhow. Don't call a person a slut on the first game!
I remember I played this other game and the guy wrote 'has left the game!' I start lawlinggggggggg in chat at him, and he was so angry at being figured out he resorted to really dumb sexist remarks saying stuff like what are you doing playing games, you're a girl, do something better with your life, you're ugly blah blah when he was the one who 7 pooled/drone rushed, tried to trick me out of a game, and is playing Starcraft himself. lawl again
It's really pathetic and cringe-worthy. Instead of resorting to the yawnfest kitchen jokes, why can't guys actually try to be witty and come up with something else.
And other guys would chat me and say are you really a girl? you must be a fat dude. Even more sad is that the so-called nicer ones would say, wow you're good! for a girl. Like what the hell. Girls don't have a mental handicap in games... why are there so few high level female players? Look at the ratio of guys to gals playing, it's tiny! you expect that, out of that small number, a huge proportion would decide to invest the time required to be playing at a high level? it's just ridiculous and that is my rant.
|
On September 19 2011 13:54 buhhy wrote:
I'm full Chinese, and I think 那个 sounds close to nigga, especially when said fast. It's said closer to nei ge, instead of ne ge.
Yeah it can be nei ge depending on the grammar but I still don't think it sounds close at all.
He's made it clear that that's not really relevant to his point though so its all good.
|
On September 19 2011 13:32 Bubble-T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:21 iCanada wrote:
Well, I don't think it is a slippery slope argument at all. I am not saying that if we let x happen, eventually y will. I am saying that people shouldn't be able to change a culture they are not part of because they find something taken out of context offensive. Ok, understood. I think gamers should still actually care if women who are not yet 'gamers' but are interested in joining that culture find it offensive though, but that's a personal opinion. Besides which, it's ok for female gamers to say that this stuff is offensive right? edit: If this is still about Day[9] using the word 'bitch' I think Geordie's reason for including it as an example in the article was not to say that people should be offended by Day[9]'s story, or to hang him for saying 'bitch' once, but to illustrate how common the use of such words (and bitch is one of the more benign ones) is in gaming circles. The point of his article is not to start a witch hunt but to get people to think about how women who enter gaming feel when they hear things like this all the time. If a female friend of mine said they didn't want to watch the daily because Day[9] said 'bitch' once, I'd try to get them to look past that. That doesn't change that I also think misogynistic words are used much too often and with little to no thought about how this impacts women in gaming or entering gaming.
Sure, anyone can express that they feel something is offensive all they want.
To be clear, I don't agree with many things in the gaming industry; if I were to place myself on any given side of the issue i'd say that many gamers are unreasonable and demeaning to women, I would say that I don't enjoy having people scream words like bitch pussy or rape, and I would say that we need to stop treating girls who play games differently than we treat girls online the same we should treat everyone the same way online as we treat them in real life.
That being said, it is unreasonable to expect to change a culture by pointing at it and starting from a point of conflict. You aren't going to remove the male dominance from the gaming scene by telling the whole entire gaming scene they are insensitive misogynist assholes who don't know how to fairly treat a lady or have some kind of ridiculous bias against women.
Case in point, theoretically I agree with the author of the article however as I finished reading I felt stereotyped in with 1000s of people I don't agree with who overreacted to some girls unprofessional article.
|
On September 19 2011 14:06 katzby wrote:
I call people bitches all the time, I don't care. But it's weird, I remember I was playing this random guy. I guess he was trying to be friendly and playful. When my lings harassed him, he wrote: 'you slut' followed by a smiley face. I got so angry by that, even though I know he was not serious, so I killed him ez pz. But anyways, I can attribute to some of my anger by reasoning that I got pissed off in the first place cos this random guy tried to get too friendly with me by calling me names. I do that too- calling people names-, but only with people who I know won't be offended or I'm chill with them. But I guess it's a good alert of what kinda person you're up against because he was QQing sooo hard after the game. Not the sort of person I would wanna hang out with anyhow. Don't call a person a slut on the first game!
People get called all sorts of stuff all the time. That's the nature of the internet.
Of course it'll be worse if you let people know you're a girl. Same thing happens if you're obviously gay or black or what have you.
Yes, they're not the sort of person you would hang out with. But who cares what some person you don't know says on the internet?
On September 19 2011 14:06 katzby wrote:
It's really pathetic and cringe-worthy. Instead of resorting to the yawnfest kitchen jokes, why can't guys actually try to be witty and come up with something else.
You might not be aware of this, but random internet trolls have pathetic boring jokes for people who aren't girls too. People get called fags, and nerds, and niggers, and everything else in the book. That's just how human nature works when it's combined with anonymity.
The real question is, are you going to let it get to you? Or will you instead be the grown-up and ignore the idiot sore loser?
|
On September 19 2011 14:12 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:32 Bubble-T wrote:On September 19 2011 13:21 iCanada wrote:
Well, I don't think it is a slippery slope argument at all. I am not saying that if we let x happen, eventually y will. I am saying that people shouldn't be able to change a culture they are not part of because they find something taken out of context offensive. Ok, understood. I think gamers should still actually care if women who are not yet 'gamers' but are interested in joining that culture find it offensive though, but that's a personal opinion. Besides which, it's ok for female gamers to say that this stuff is offensive right? edit: If this is still about Day[9] using the word 'bitch' I think Geordie's reason for including it as an example in the article was not to say that people should be offended by Day[9]'s story, or to hang him for saying 'bitch' once, but to illustrate how common the use of such words (and bitch is one of the more benign ones) is in gaming circles. The point of his article is not to start a witch hunt but to get people to think about how women who enter gaming feel when they hear things like this all the time. If a female friend of mine said they didn't want to watch the daily because Day[9] said 'bitch' once, I'd try to get them to look past that. That doesn't change that I also think misogynistic words are used much too often and with little to no thought about how this impacts women in gaming or entering gaming. Sure, anyone can express that they feel something is offensive all they want. To be clear, I don't agree with many things in the gaming industry; if I were to place myself on any given side of the issue i'd say that many gamers are unreasonable and demeaning to women, I would say that I don't enjoy having people scream words like bitch pussy or rape, and I would say that we need to stop treating girls who play games differently than we treat girls online the same we should treat everyone the same way online as we treat them in real life. That being said, it is unreasonable to expect to change a culture by pointing at it and starting from a point of conflict. You aren't going to remove the male dominance from the gaming scene by telling the whole entire gaming scene they are insensitive misogynist assholes who don't know how to fairly treat a lady or have some kind of ridiculous bias against women. Case in point, theoretically I agree with the author of the article however as I finished reading I felt stereotyped in with 1000s of people I don't agree with who overreacted to some girls unprofessional article.
I understand that and I don't think the article was perfect, but it makes more sense to me when you consider that he's talking to a hypothetical daughter who will encounter that behaviour, a lot. I don't think Tait is trying to say that you, as a gamer, are a horrible person. He's trying to say that his daughter will encounter horrible behaviour from gamers.
This is a very, very difficult subject to broach - write too little and people will argue that you're blowing something out of proportion. Write too much (which maybe he did) and people won't even finish the article, single something out, and then act like you blew that out of proportion. Write in too academic a tone and a lot of gamers simply will not be able to understand it (see earlier posts where people think that quoting the dictionary definition of 'privilege' is some sort of masterstroke). Write it more conversationally and you'll be attacked for generalising and stereotyping too much. If you don't talk about your own behaviour you'll be holier-than-thou, if you criticise yourself as much as Geordie did you get shit for it too.
One of the main things Tait actually tried to get across in that article is that it's basically impossible to write something on this topic and not come across as trying to start a conflict because so many gamers simply do not want to hear it or attempt to understand.
On September 19 2011 14:18 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 14:06 katzby wrote:
I call people bitches all the time, I don't care. But it's weird, I remember I was playing this random guy. I guess he was trying to be friendly and playful. When my lings harassed him, he wrote: 'you slut' followed by a smiley face. I got so angry by that, even though I know he was not serious, so I killed him ez pz. But anyways, I can attribute to some of my anger by reasoning that I got pissed off in the first place cos this random guy tried to get too friendly with me by calling me names. I do that too- calling people names-, but only with people who I know won't be offended or I'm chill with them. But I guess it's a good alert of what kinda person you're up against because he was QQing sooo hard after the game. Not the sort of person I would wanna hang out with anyhow. Don't call a person a slut on the first game! People get called all sorts of stuff all the time. That's the nature of the internet. Of course it'll be worse if you let people know you're a girl. Same thing happens if you're obviously gay or black or what have you. Yes, they're not the sort of person you would hang out with. But who cares what some person you don't know says on the internet?
The disconnect I feel exists here is that gamers spend a lot of time talking about how great the SC2 community is. Bring up a negative aspect of the community though, even if it's just to say "hey people we can do better than this", and suddenly it's just "people you don't know on the internet". It's either a community or its not (after all, Day[9] is also just a guy I don't know on the internet).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
