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On August 09 2011 01:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 08:40 shinosai wrote:On August 08 2011 00:30 Gaga wrote:On August 07 2011 16:00 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Gotta agree with Lallsc2, Obama made promises of no tax increases for average people and to get us out of both wars and he hasn't made good on either of those two huge issues. Its interesting how the people in DC would rather have so many Americans lose jobs and have to live with family etc rather than cutting funding from the military and using those funds to bring some relief back home. Funny how politicians work, they get in there spots by lying and instead of empowering the country the sabotage us. Thanks Washington DC for always making our country look like morons, nobody could do it better than you guys. military spendig = jobs in the US you are depending on them as well ... They are jobs but unproductive jobs. Rule of life, not all jobs are created equal. In general, government jobs are less productive to the economy than jobs in the private sector. The military is probably one of the least productive jobs, because war makes economies worse instead of better. Not really. Military spending is some of the most productive government spending. Military spending and military jobs creates a demand in the private sector for the development and manufacturing of weapons and other technologies. That's pretty damned productive for the American economy when you think about it. Compare that to spending on the EPA or any of the regulatory agencies. Instead of generating a market for the private sector, these agencies and their regulations increase the cost of the private sector doing business, effectively hampering their businesses.
Which is great if we're producing all of our own weaponry out of our very own factories in the USA, and also supplying the rest of the world with these weapons and technologies from our very own factories, and watching the infrastructure of other countries fall apart while we are affected minimally. I have my doubts that the demand in the private sector outweighs the damage done to the economy by war, and even more so due to our heavy reliance on imports.
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On August 09 2011 03:23 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 01:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2011 08:40 shinosai wrote:On August 08 2011 00:30 Gaga wrote:On August 07 2011 16:00 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Gotta agree with Lallsc2, Obama made promises of no tax increases for average people and to get us out of both wars and he hasn't made good on either of those two huge issues. Its interesting how the people in DC would rather have so many Americans lose jobs and have to live with family etc rather than cutting funding from the military and using those funds to bring some relief back home. Funny how politicians work, they get in there spots by lying and instead of empowering the country the sabotage us. Thanks Washington DC for always making our country look like morons, nobody could do it better than you guys. military spendig = jobs in the US you are depending on them as well ... They are jobs but unproductive jobs. Rule of life, not all jobs are created equal. In general, government jobs are less productive to the economy than jobs in the private sector. The military is probably one of the least productive jobs, because war makes economies worse instead of better. Not really. Military spending is some of the most productive government spending. Military spending and military jobs creates a demand in the private sector for the development and manufacturing of weapons and other technologies. That's pretty damned productive for the American economy when you think about it. Compare that to spending on the EPA or any of the regulatory agencies. Instead of generating a market for the private sector, these agencies and their regulations increase the cost of the private sector doing business, effectively hampering their businesses. Which is great if we're producing all of our own weaponry out of our very own factories in the USA, and also supplying the rest of the world with these weapons and technologies from our very own factories, and watching the infrastructure of other countries fall apart while we are affected minimally. I have my doubts that the demand in the private sector outweighs the damage done to the economy by war, and even more so due to our heavy reliance on imports.
And that's the point. The military industry is necessarily located predominantly here in the US. It's not something that you can outsource for obvious reasons. Economically, the defense industry is huge business and a big boon to private companies. Whether it's worth some of the social costs is another matter.
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On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI
Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling.
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On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI
It's not that the medicine is wrong, just the dose isn't high enough. Increase dose.
Would be funny if it wasn't so serious.
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On August 09 2011 03:26 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:23 shinosai wrote:On August 09 2011 01:50 xDaunt wrote:On August 08 2011 08:40 shinosai wrote:On August 08 2011 00:30 Gaga wrote:On August 07 2011 16:00 RaLakedaimon wrote:
Gotta agree with Lallsc2, Obama made promises of no tax increases for average people and to get us out of both wars and he hasn't made good on either of those two huge issues. Its interesting how the people in DC would rather have so many Americans lose jobs and have to live with family etc rather than cutting funding from the military and using those funds to bring some relief back home. Funny how politicians work, they get in there spots by lying and instead of empowering the country the sabotage us. Thanks Washington DC for always making our country look like morons, nobody could do it better than you guys. military spendig = jobs in the US you are depending on them as well ... They are jobs but unproductive jobs. Rule of life, not all jobs are created equal. In general, government jobs are less productive to the economy than jobs in the private sector. The military is probably one of the least productive jobs, because war makes economies worse instead of better. Not really. Military spending is some of the most productive government spending. Military spending and military jobs creates a demand in the private sector for the development and manufacturing of weapons and other technologies. That's pretty damned productive for the American economy when you think about it. Compare that to spending on the EPA or any of the regulatory agencies. Instead of generating a market for the private sector, these agencies and their regulations increase the cost of the private sector doing business, effectively hampering their businesses. Which is great if we're producing all of our own weaponry out of our very own factories in the USA, and also supplying the rest of the world with these weapons and technologies from our very own factories, and watching the infrastructure of other countries fall apart while we are affected minimally. I have my doubts that the demand in the private sector outweighs the damage done to the economy by war, and even more so due to our heavy reliance on imports. And that's the point. The military industry is necessarily located predominantly here in the US. It's not something that you can outsource for obvious reasons. Economically, the defense industry is huge business and a big boon to private companies. Whether it's worth some of the social costs is another matter.
The cost of war, and the opportunity cost lost by not spending that said money on our economy here at home puts in a horrible situation. Need I remind how much these wars have cost us? Over $4 Trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/29/us-usa-war-idUSTRE75S25320110629
If a nations stance on war is that it needs to continue in order to maintain economic stability, then that nation should immediately begin fixing that problem. At least start fixing, were still going in the opposite direction. Obama has spent more money on military spending than any other president over a 1 year time period.
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On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling.
The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys.
edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to roughly 150 points (?) in15 minutes but seems to have leveled off.
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An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance.
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On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 3:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys.
It doesn't take a genius to look at the charts and see that the DOW dropped sharply while Obama was speaking.
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On August 09 2011 03:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 3:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. It doesn't take a genius to look at the charts and see that the DOW dropped sharply while Obama was speaking.
He's been speaking for 10 days straight then? 
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On August 09 2011 03:45 RifleCow wrote:
An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance.
Hey man, why didn't you mention the wars in those paragraphs? Ron Paul supporters receive personal insults on a regular basis, they are not a very effective form of arguing FYI.
I agree with you when you say that tax increases are necessary on our current path. The actual problem itself is the path, our foreign policy, policing the world path. I also agree that raising the taxes won't devastate the economy per say.
On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off.
You're right also, the markets will rally again. The point of ALL of this is that the recovery, and the well being of the United States fiscal situation in the future could be much better if we stopped spending, and the only viable option to cut spending right now is the wars. Which Obama has made clear he wont touch. Whats worse is that I believe the reason he is there is because he wooed the anti-war movement by lying on his presidential campaign.
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On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off.
It's plummeting due to Obama's fail economic policies coming to fruition! </sarcasm>
There's a lot of crap going on in the world right now, and the US isn't helping. We literally started a long-term debate on debt management with a ransom of not only the US economy, but the world economy. We're a country everybody traditionally focuses on when times are bad elsewhere, yet we're showing even more ridiculous crap than ever.
One thing many people don't understand about the whole situation: we were downgraded not because of our debt management, but how we approached that management in the first place. When we literally have one large group of people willing to go as far as default to get their way (out of ignorance or stubbornness), the financial sector sees that as reckless and will punish us accordingly.
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I love S&P's comment on the downgrade. Words to the effect of:
"It's not that we think you don't have the economic power to pay back the loans. We just don't think you have the political power."
Now our own economic system is telling Washington how fucking retarded it is. Love it.
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On August 09 2011 04:01 Bibdy wrote:
I love S&P's comment on the downgrade. Words to the effect of:
"It's not that we think you don't have the economic power to pay back the loans. We just don't think you have the political power."
Now our own economic system is telling Washington how fucking retarded it is. Love it.
Someone has to. Maybe the voters will do the same thing next year and won't re elect the current crop of politicians since they are having a hard time making important decisions while the economy remains in the shit.
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On August 09 2011 03:51 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 3:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. It doesn't take a genius to look at the charts and see that the DOW dropped sharply while Obama was speaking.
Look at the chart again. It goes from roughly 11000 at 2:00, dips and recovers, back to roughly 11000 at 2:45 and starts fluctuating more. I don't see proof of anything, so maybe it does take a genius, or maybe financial systems are much more complicated than that...
There's no question the trajectory is downwards, but if we're so hellbent on blaming our political enemies we won't solve a damn thing.
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On August 09 2011 03:55 LaLLsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:45 RifleCow wrote:
An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance. Hey man, why didn't you mention the wars in those paragraphs? Ron Paul supporters receive personal insults on a regular basis, they are not a very effective form of arguing FYI. I agree with you when you say that tax increases are necessary on our current path. The actual problem itself is the path, our foreign policy, policing the world path. I also agree that raising the taxes won't devastate the economy per say. Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off. You're right also, the markets will rally again. The point of ALL of this is that the recovery, and the well being of the United States fiscal situation in the future could be much better if we stopped spending, and the only viable option to cut spending right now is the wars. Which Obama has made clear he wont touch. Whats worse is that I believe the reason he is there is because he wooed the anti-war movement by lying in his on his presidential campaign.
He didn't lie though. We have pretty much ended our involvement in Iraq. We WERE in Afghanistan for a reason, and now we can't get out easily now that the "reason" is dead. We have to treat the situation delicately, otherwise we could face even more hostility in the coming decades. The scaling back of troops is already underway and we're ending the "occupation" in a responsible way.
If you want to talk about foreign policy outside of our entanglement in the Middle East, I'm all ears, as are a lot of others. In many ways, you're right, we shouldn't police the world. Invading countries and creating coalitions outside of the UN to fight in civil wars which have no direct impact on the US is stupid and expensive. Any large scale engagements we DO invest in should be done in concert with a draft, to tie long term public interest (and not the economy) to our ventures and make us more hesitant to engage in such activities. However, keeping military bases open overseas and around the world, as long as they aren't largely unwelcomed, costs us little and can be used as a recruiting tool for standing forces.
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Meh, sometimes the system is too broken to be fixed I guess. Will be interesting to see how the global stage looks in 50 years.
It would take a herculean effort to move the polemical standard in Washington I think, and not without reason. Reasonable debate, consideration, and judgement along with compromise gets things done where they are important. Unexpected, non planned things happen all the time. But, if you reason at all, if you change your position at all, you get labeled a flip flopper in the US media, and you will never get elected. Why? Because your positions aren't solid enough.
I understand why it works this way in the media and in popular opinion. A lot of the time, compromise does appear to be a euphemism for a country club party where everyone else gets fucked over. But it is simple needed sometimes....
Honestly sometimes it feels that human politics in general is a natural negative feedback machine, in the sense that the more time and talking goes on, the worse shit gets. Maybe that's why every great nation in history has not lasted so long. Maybe it's just unavoidable.
One thing that is for certain though is that any faith I had in the enduring ability of the US government is gone lol. Oh well, enough of this emo rant, but I guess I have standing in the sense that this retarded shit is causing almost everyone to lose money, unless you've got the shit morals and money to bet against the market recovering quickly.
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On August 09 2011 04:15 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:51 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 3:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. It doesn't take a genius to look at the charts and see that the DOW dropped sharply while Obama was speaking. Look at the chart again. It goes from roughly 11000 at 2:00, dips and recovers, back to roughly 11000 at 2:45 and starts fluctuating more. I don't see proof of anything, so maybe it does take a genius, or maybe financial systems are much more complicated than that... There's no question the trajectory is downwards, but if we're so hellbent on blaming our political enemies we won't solve a damn thing.
You're the only person guilty of partisan hackery here in your zeal to defend Obama. I merely commented that the markets were falling during Obama's speech right after he spoke. The DOW touched a low of about -550 during this time. There's nothing inaccurate about what I said.
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On August 09 2011 03:55 LaLLsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:45 RifleCow wrote:
An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance. Hey man, why didn't you mention the wars in those paragraphs? Ron Paul supporters receive personal insults on a regular basis, they are not a very effective form of arguing FYI. I agree with you when you say that tax increases are necessary on our current path. The actual problem itself is the path, our foreign policy, policing the world path. I also agree that raising the taxes won't devastate the economy per say. Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off. You're right also, the markets will rally again. The point of ALL of this is that the recovery, and the well being of the United States fiscal situation in the future could be much better if we stopped spending, and the only viable option to cut spending right now is the wars. Which Obama has made clear he wont touch. Whats worse is that I believe the reason he is there is because he wooed the anti-war movement by lying on his presidential campaign.
I agree with you 100%. Anyone remotely serious about the deficit has to acknowledge that the wars and the military in general are out of control. It's probably my biggest gripe with Obama so far.
And I like Ron Paul. I don't agree with him on everything and he probably isn't realistic enough about things like the FED and health care, but he is genuine and that is rare. I recommend his 2008 manifesto. I don't recall him being opposed to the separation of church and state but I wouldn't swear on that. Whatever his stance on social issues, his position on government intervention (as evidenced by his feelings on drug criminalization and gay marriage) means that he wouldn't be forcing his values on anyone, ideally anyway.
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On August 09 2011 04:17 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:55 LaLLsc2 wrote:On August 09 2011 03:45 RifleCow wrote:
An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance. Hey man, why didn't you mention the wars in those paragraphs? Ron Paul supporters receive personal insults on a regular basis, they are not a very effective form of arguing FYI. I agree with you when you say that tax increases are necessary on our current path. The actual problem itself is the path, our foreign policy, policing the world path. I also agree that raising the taxes won't devastate the economy per say. On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off. You're right also, the markets will rally again. The point of ALL of this is that the recovery, and the well being of the United States fiscal situation in the future could be much better if we stopped spending, and the only viable option to cut spending right now is the wars. Which Obama has made clear he wont touch. Whats worse is that I believe the reason he is there is because he wooed the anti-war movement by lying in his on his presidential campaign. He didn't lie though. We have pretty much ended our involvement in Iraq. We WERE in Afghanistan for a reason, and now we can't get out easily now that the "reason" is dead. We have to treat the situation delicately, otherwise we could face even more hostility in the coming decades. The scaling back of troops is already underway and we're ending the "occupation" in a responsible way.
You sir need to do some research..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
Over 156,000 troops stationed across the middle east, over 700 bases across the world
![[image loading]](http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z443/joeshmoe762/1us-bases-in-the-middle-east-a.jpg)
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On August 09 2011 04:30 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 03:55 LaLLsc2 wrote:On August 09 2011 03:45 RifleCow wrote:
An increase in taxes is necessary at this point in order to quell the defect. Anyone that doesn't realize this is just fooling themselves. Entitlement programs will not be cut because Americans don't want them to be cut. Plus, lowering government injections will probably have a greater contraction effect than raising taxes due to multiplier theory. Right now what we are experienceing is pretty much the lack of confidence by enterprise because of lack of debt control and foreseen crowding out. What we see here is exactly the danger of stabilization policy, everyone is fine with spending to get out of recession no one is okay with increasing taxes and decreasing spending afterwards. Which is why a government system that is purely based on public opinion has massive flaws since public opinion isn't exactly the most informed.
And for those that are talking about Ron Paul, the guys an idiot. If you listen to anything he says about money, the fed, or government, he is pretty much wrong. He fails to realize that ALL money is FIAT money and that the Fed and the government are separate entities. That's not even getting started on his domestic sways of anti church-state separation as well as his pro-life stance. Hey man, why didn't you mention the wars in those paragraphs? Ron Paul supporters receive personal insults on a regular basis, they are not a very effective form of arguing FYI. I agree with you when you say that tax increases are necessary on our current path. The actual problem itself is the path, our foreign policy, policing the world path. I also agree that raising the taxes won't devastate the economy per say. On August 09 2011 03:41 Senorcuidado wrote:On August 09 2011 03:27 xDaunt wrote:On August 09 2011 03:20 LaLLsc2 wrote:Obama just finished his speech. For any of you who would like it summed up. Obama decided to ignore economic law and continue with the overall status quo spending as usual approach to the economy. He boasted about the cuts that were made with the debt deal, and told the people that we couldn't stop there. Obamas next area of interest is going to be increasing taxes on incomes above $250,000 as well as what Obama only described as "modifying healthcare". In essence, the markets and the dollar will continue to pay the piper until more sensible economic and foreign policy takes root. http://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI Well the makets loved Obama's speech. DOW is down 550 and falling. The DOW has been plummeting all day, our credit was just downgraded. I'm not defending Obama, but you're being ridiculous. In fact there's a small uptick at 2:30 EST, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to the speech either. Come on, political affiliations aside let's use a little common sense guys. edit: fixed typo. Also, that uptick grew to more than 50 points (?) in the last 15 minutes but seems to have levelled off. You're right also, the markets will rally again. The point of ALL of this is that the recovery, and the well being of the United States fiscal situation in the future could be much better if we stopped spending, and the only viable option to cut spending right now is the wars. Which Obama has made clear he wont touch. Whats worse is that I believe the reason he is there is because he wooed the anti-war movement by lying on his presidential campaign. I agree with you 100%. Anyone remotely serious about the deficit has to acknowledge that the wars and the military in general are out of control. It's probably my biggest gripe with Obama so far. And I like Ron Paul. I don't agree with him on everything and he probably isn't realistic enough about things like the FED and health care, but he is genuine and that is rare. I recommend his 2008 manifesto. I don't recall him being opposed to the separation of church and state but I wouldn't swear on that. Whatever his stance on social issues, his position on government intervention (as evidenced by his feelings on drug criminalization and gay marriage) means that he wouldn't be forcing his values on anyone, ideally anyway.
Agreed, the beauty of Ron Paul is that the only thing he has TRUE control over is the war. Everything else must pass a vote, and the people WILL not vote to decrease their welfare so there's nothing to worry about anyways..
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EPT
