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On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland  Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.
You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
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On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands. You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.
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On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands. You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.
What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda.
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On May 30 2011 01:56 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands. You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them. What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda.
Right, so it's the people's fault, not the religion. That's all I was really saying. Hateful people probably would have justified it some other stupid way like the Nazis.
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someone should post this on 4chan and get anonymous to destroy that shit! seriously, if they can take on the church of scientology then this would be easy for them! this is sickening, I can't believe a country thats supposed to be the strongest superpower in the world would allow something like this to happen. More and more I'm starting to think that America = Rome and the same fate awaits them
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long. On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting. The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children. On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands. You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.
Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.
Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!
DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
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I really hope a lot of it is fake, it really sounds so awful that it's hard to believe that even christians would do such a thing to people. Very sad article 
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On May 30 2011 01:58 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:56 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.
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The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.
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Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that. That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it? Mormons accept gay people now? No. Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No. When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem. The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture. I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable. In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others). I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life. I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex). Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be. No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance. 'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.' While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion. Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version) 22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it... I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language... We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all. Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands. You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones. Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them. What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda. Right, so it's the people's fault, not the religion. That's all I was really saying. Hateful people probably would have justified it some other stupid way like the Nazis.
Thats the problem with religion. It's equally bad as Nazism in this regard. And that's the problem people have with religion. It's not just the perpetrators that are bad, it's ALSO the fact that they can hide behind the excuse of only following a religion.
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That's fucking disgusting.
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adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.
Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.
Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!
DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all...
Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.
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On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +
adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.
Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.
Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!
DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all... Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.
Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started.
Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda.
wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!
EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there
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That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
They've already maxed out their skill at ignoring their own brains so it should really come as no surprise.
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It's amazing how a post about some asshole parents wanting their daughter de-gayified by sending them to a hell-camp has degenerated into religion-bashing.
On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance. I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.
"They" do? Really?
Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention.
Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil.
Um, no it isn't.
The most you can say is that religion can be used as a convenient excuse. The Romans did not go to war to honor Mars. They said that, but they went to war because they were assholes and Mars was something they could use to cover that up.
If people didn't have that excuse, they'd just come up with a different one. Perhaps instead of the Crusades, it might have been a war between the nations of Europe. Or something else.
People often talk about the wars started by religion, yet nobody ever talks about the good side of religion. Probably because it doesn't get much press. The hope that it brings people. The moral compass that it helps people develop. The communities it helps to keep together. Religion isn't necessary for those things, but it isn't necessary for war either.
I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!
So you want to cast off your religion and... join a religion. You realize that Buddhism is a religion, right? Or do you just not consider it a religion because it doesn't have a God in it?
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I just wanted to say, I attended and graduated the school that the OP mentions. It took me 22 months. That is all.
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On May 29 2011 17:29 N3rV[Green] wrote:
being morman means you believe a fairy tale told via a picture book.
I lived in Utah (moab to be precise) for many many years, and I can say from personal experience that the Mormon world is a rather scary one filled with wonderful little things like an upstanding Mormon man in the community killing his wife, telling the police, and having the police not do any investigations. This kind of manipulation happens frequently and it's rather disgusting.
Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane
Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.
more ontopic though, the biggest thing here is that it's 100% voluntary. That scares me more than anything. A parent would willing put their child though this....just sickening.
Slow down there buddy. Where are you getting the bolded part from? Give me doctrine. Otherwise I can only say you're trolling, or severely misinformed.
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"They" do? Really?
Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention.
You're taking me out of context. I was actually defending Christians if you followed, even though my "they" was vague. All Christians do ignore passages of the Bible. However the "they" are the Christians in the OP.
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America, this is why everyone hates you, holy fucking shit.
User was warned for this post
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On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:America fuck yeah! Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland
You guys have public schools, right? And what happens if the child doesnt want to go there?
The differences between camps like the op and public schools are technical. The ideology taught at the behavioral camp is different from de facto public school ideology, hence it seems alienating to us, even though fundamentally, the indoctrination of ideology is the goal of both systems. Also the use of violence is much more masked in public schools. One is not directly physically abused, however the inevitable consequences of being sent to hard treatment camps, should one fail the school program, remain as a remainder to students that the official program must be followed.
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On May 30 2011 02:49 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:
adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.
Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.
Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!
DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all... Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have. Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started. Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda. wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?! EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there
Interesting, I didn't know that "Romans were mostly bisexuals." Could you point to some of the historical sources?
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On May 30 2011 03:23 SomeONEx wrote:
America, this is why everyone hates you, holy fucking shit.
I thought it was because we narrowly avoided electing Sarah Palin as VP?
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On May 30 2011 02:49 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:
adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.
Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.
Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!
DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all... Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have. Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started. Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda. wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?! EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there And the 100 milliion killed by communism? That had nothing to do with religion, when in fact the ideological premises of communism directly reject religion and accept materialism.
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